Cautionary Tale

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DrGuano
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby DrGuano » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:50 am

kahechsof wrote:How about we just call it "A tale"?


YES! A TALE! HA HA...

THE MOOSE!

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Bronx Bum
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.


It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.


I agree 100%. I'm a evening student at Fordham and I have been absolutely slammed on this board/banned, etc. for getting into arguments with people who call me "flame" for saying you need to be in to top 10% to be highly competitive. This board has been a TERRIBLE source for Fordham information in the last few years. But you say people should do their research--this board is a great source of information and research about law school. When you have people on this board claiming that Fordham is a good deal at sticker, which they have for the last few years, prospective students could make stupid decisions. I find it particularly deceiving when people say "well I'll just get a public interest job and IBR the 200k;" as if those jobs are easy to get. Fordham at sticker is a terrible decision.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Kilpatrick » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:56 am

Bronx Bum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.


It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.


I agree 100%. I'm a evening student at Fordham and I have been absolutely slammed on this board/banned, etc. for getting into arguments with people who call me "flame" for saying you need to be in to top 10% to be highly competitive. This board has been a TERRIBLE source for Fordham information in the last few years. But you say people should do their research--this board is a great source of information and research about law school. When you have people on this board claiming that Fordham is a good deal at sticker, which they have for the last few years, prospective students could make stupid decisions. I find it particularly deceiving when people say "well I'll just get a public interest job and IBR the 200k;" as if those jobs are easy to get. Fordham at sticker is a terrible decision.


You get slammed on this board because you're a douche

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Grizz
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Grizz » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:57 am

I wonder how Columbia Law did.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:08 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.


It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.


I agree 100%. I'm a evening student at Fordham and I have been absolutely slammed on this board/banned, etc. for getting into arguments with people who call me "flame" for saying you need to be in to top 10% to be highly competitive. This board has been a TERRIBLE source for Fordham information in the last few years. But you say people should do their research--this board is a great source of information and research about law school. When you have people on this board claiming that Fordham is a good deal at sticker, which they have for the last few years, prospective students could make stupid decisions. I find it particularly deceiving when people say "well I'll just get a public interest job and IBR the 200k;" as if those jobs are easy to get. Fordham at sticker is a terrible decision.


You get slammed on this board because you're a douche


See. Exactly my point.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:21 am

Haha. Funny guy...but I see your point and agree. However, by research I mean talking to current students, not prowling TLS. If you're making your decisions based on shit you read here, then yeah, it shouldn't come as shock when your expectations are way off and you're out on your ass with no job.

One of the biggest problems with this board is people like Opera Soprano who talk about Fordham like its the bees knees in NYC. Fordham is a great school. If you're at the top of your class it has a lot to offer. A lot of interviews I went on I was treated very well because of my ranking at Fordham. I know of several friends from prior work experience at a lot of top schools and I have a better SA offer, despite them being at Harvard, Northwestern, Michigan, and Penn.

But again, I did very well and am by no means the norm. Fordham, like many other schools can be characterized simply by the old cliched adage, high risk/high reward.

Eco
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Eco » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:16 pm

You got a free law education (basically) at one of the best law schools in the city. Fordham is a very strong school even if its T30. You're fine.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:26 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.


It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.


I agree 100%. I'm a evening student at Fordham and I have been absolutely slammed on this board/banned, etc. for getting into arguments with people who call me "flame" for saying you need to be in to top 10% to be highly competitive. This board has been a TERRIBLE source for Fordham information in the last few years. But you say people should do their research--this board is a great source of information and research about law school. When you have people on this board claiming that Fordham is a good deal at sticker, which they have for the last few years, prospective students could make stupid decisions. I find it particularly deceiving when people say "well I'll just get a public interest job and IBR the 200k;" as if those jobs are easy to get. Fordham at sticker is a terrible decision.


want to know why people slam you? you're a load of BS.
first you say you don't go to a "TTT" like fordham, and we find out you do.
second, you bag on me for my high grades in the evening program, saying you could do so much better if you were in it. lo an behold, now you claim you are in fact in evening program.

and you wonder why people call you "douche" and "troll"?

timertimer61
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby timertimer61 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:27 pm

didn't mean to be anon. me right above slamming bronx

kahechsof
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby kahechsof » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.


It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.


I agree 100%. I'm a evening student at Fordham and I have been absolutely slammed on this board/banned, etc. for getting into arguments with people who call me "flame" for saying you need to be in to top 10% to be highly competitive. This board has been a TERRIBLE source for Fordham information in the last few years. But you say people should do their research--this board is a great source of information and research about law school. When you have people on this board claiming that Fordham is a good deal at sticker, which they have for the last few years, prospective students could make stupid decisions. I find it particularly deceiving when people say "well I'll just get a public interest job and IBR the 200k;" as if those jobs are easy to get. Fordham at sticker is a terrible decision.


want to know why people slam you? you're a load of BS.
first you say you don't go to a "TTT" like fordham, and we find out you do.
second, you bag on me for my high grades in the evening program, saying you could do so much better if you were in it. lo an behold, now you claim you are in fact in evening program.

and you wonder why people call you "douche" and "troll"?


hee hee. I like bronx bum. I wish I could troll like that.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:59 pm

OP here. Fordham is a great school and I have really enjoyed my time here, honestly. However, there seem to be this misconception out there that since the school is in NY, it places much better than other similarly ranked schools. From my experiences and from speaking to people, this seems to apply very much before ITE and not so much now. It gives you a decent to small shot at biglaw if you do well. But there is nothing about the location that will help you unless you do really well.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Well, you will probably end up in the same/better situation than a lot of students at T14. Yeah, you missed out at starting at BigLaw, but so has about 50% of T14 students depending on what T14 school you're at. Many of the T14 students are paying sticker, have no BigLaw jobs (or any jobs), and will end up with $175k+ in debt.


That's certainly true. On the flip side, I didn't do that much better than OP (top 15%) after 1L at a lower T14 and ended up with a V5 job. The T30 students who were in my summer class were at the tippy-top of their respective law schools with law review, while the T14 folks had good but not top grades and often secondary journals.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There have been a number of threads that discuss taking the money at a lower ranked school vs full freight at a higher ranked school. This is the first thread, that I am aware of, where the poster is not happy with the decision.


This is also the first thread I've seen on the choice post-OCI rather than pre-1L.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There have been a number of threads that discuss taking the money at a lower ranked school vs full freight at a higher ranked school. This is the first thread, that I am aware of, where the poster is not happy with the decision.


This is also the first thread I've seen on the choice post-OCI rather than pre-1L.



I actually had a thread about this last year where I was contemplating my decision. Just wanted to update. At the time many people told me to just take the higher ranker school, but the no-debt thing was really big and I figured that I could do well enough to get biglaw. Turns out I did well but apparently not well enough. I will say, though, that the law review people here are cleaning up.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There have been a number of threads that discuss taking the money at a lower ranked school vs full freight at a higher ranked school. This is the first thread, that I am aware of, where the poster is not happy with the decision.


This is also the first thread I've seen on the choice post-OCI rather than pre-1L.



I actually had a thread about this last year where I was contemplating my decision. Just wanted to update. At the time many people told me to just take the higher ranker school, but the no-debt thing was really big and I figured that I could do well enough to get biglaw. Turns out I did well but apparently not well enough. I will say, though, that the law review people here are cleaning up.


If you must know, I know a dude at T14 who had the same choice and seriously regrets not taking Fordham.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.


It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.


I agree 100%. I'm a evening student at Fordham and I have been absolutely slammed on this board/banned, etc. for getting into arguments with people who call me "flame" for saying you need to be in to top 10% to be highly competitive. This board has been a TERRIBLE source for Fordham information in the last few years. But you say people should do their research--this board is a great source of information and research about law school. When you have people on this board claiming that Fordham is a good deal at sticker, which they have for the last few years, prospective students could make stupid decisions. I find it particularly deceiving when people say "well I'll just get a public interest job and IBR the 200k;" as if those jobs are easy to get. Fordham at sticker is a terrible decision.


want to know why people slam you? you're a load of BS.
first you say you don't go to a "TTT" like fordham, and we find out you do.
second, you bag on me for my high grades in the evening program, saying you could do so much better if you were in it. lo an behold, now you claim you are in fact in evening program.

and you wonder why people call you "douche" and "troll"?


Oh, what a scholar!

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:45 pm

FWIW I turned down a full ride to Fordham for CCN with a 30k scholarship. I'm above median and I don't have a job yet either.

Anonymous User
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Fordham is a great school and I have really enjoyed my time here, honestly. However, there seem to be this misconception out there that since the school is in NY, it places much better than other similarly ranked schools. From my experiences and from speaking to people, this seems to apply very much before ITE and not so much now. It gives you a decent to small shot at biglaw if you do well. But there is nothing about the location that will help you unless you do really well.


That is solely based on your experience. Again, not to try and disparage you, but I have FOUR friends that have nearly identical stats as you, on either IPLJ, ILJ, or Urban, that all have offers at decent big law firms (Two at Winston, one at Seward, one at Shephard). If you think that those kids would have just as good of a chance at getting jobs at NY firms from UNC, Illinois, Indiana, BC, BU, WUSTL, USC, or UNC, you are simply mistaken.

For Fordham the location is huge. Look at those firms websites and see where they recruit. All T14 schools...and then Fordham.

I am not OperaSoprano, nor a Fordham booster, but to say it only gives you a decent to small shot at biglaw if you do well is blatantly untrue. I'm somewhere between top 5-10 percent in the class and had 8/10 offers from all V30, 7 of which were V25, 5 of which are V15, 2 of which are V10. Not to mention all the callbacks I canceled after I received an offer from my top choice.

I think I did well, and I would not call that a decent to small shot at big law. 30 screener interviews at all top firms = Big Law Job.

Just step back, look at this realistically. Did you really think that in the worst legal market in years, where summer classes have shrunk to nearly 1/5 of their sizes a few years ago you'd need to be anywhere but top 10 percent to land big law at Fordham? Why would firms need to bother with Fordham students when they have top 25% at NYU/Columbia students that years ago would've been in the 100+ size classes at Weil/Simpson/Cleary/PW, looking for jobs at their own firms.

Your plight sucks and you have every right to share that. But man up dude. You have no debt. You might've blown your shot at a big law salary, but you're still in fine shape, with a fine degree. It's not like you're graduating with a degree from NYL or Touro.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There have been a number of threads that discuss taking the money at a lower ranked school vs full freight at a higher ranked school. This is the first thread, that I am aware of, where the poster is not happy with the decision.


This is also the first thread I've seen on the choice post-OCI rather than pre-1L.



I actually had a thread about this last year where I was contemplating my decision. Just wanted to update. At the time many people told me to just take the higher ranker school, but the no-debt thing was really big and I figured that I could do well enough to get biglaw. Turns out I did well but apparently not well enough. I will say, though, that the law review people here are cleaning up.


If you must know, I know a dude at T14 who had the same choice and seriously regrets not taking Fordham.


Sure. If you strike out, you'd rather strike out with lower debt. But you gotta look at the expected value. Take the median biglaw career (3 years after LS). If you're a typical LS applicant, your alternative jobs probably pay in the $40k range. Let's say $50k to be generous, or $150k over three years. If you get big law you'll earn say $500k over that period, or $350k more.

Now, say Fordham gives you a 15% chance at getting big law. The expected value over the first three years = $350k * 0.15 = $52.5k. Now, say a lower T14 gives you a 60% chance at getting big law. The expected value over the first three years is $210k, or over $150k more.

If your scholarship at Fordham is $150k (in reality if you got full ride at Fordham you probably have some money at a lower T14), you statistically break even at the T14 after just 3 years. Considering the legal avenues big law opens up after three years, over your lifetime you'll earn a lot more having chosen to go to the T14.

The comments directed at OP are misguided. He's not complaining about his plight. He's simply illustrating the fact that statistically taking money at Fordham over a T14 at sticker is a losing proposition.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:11 pm

Your analysis may be correct if the goal is biglaw (which for the OP it was). Taking money at a lower ranked school over a T14 is not always a losing proposition.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote: (Two at Winston, one at Seward, one at Shephard). If you think that those kids would have just as good of a chance at getting jobs at NY firms from UNC, Illinois, Indiana, BC, BU, WUSTL, USC, or UNC, you are simply mistaken.

For Fordham the location is huge. Look at those firms websites and see where they recruit. All T14 schools...and then Fordham.

All three of those firms were at BU/BC's NYC fair, but that's neither here nor there.

I'm still curious about 7 screeners. Is that really the expected number from Fordham at that class rank? Fordham is somewhat of a preselect/lottery mix, right? Just seems low to me.

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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:20 pm

I go to Fordham and in general I feel that the prospects are a little overblown, overly optimistic. A couple professors have said to classrooms "You'll all get jobs, don't worry." Really? What do you know about it? One of my professors polled a classroom last year to find out how many of the graduating 3Ls had work. 1 of 8 people knew where they were headed with a month left to go in spring semester. I suppose things can work out for everyone in some way or another, but generally, if you are not in the top 15% of the class my feelings are that you have paid a lot of money out for a tough road ahead of you. There is a feeling that everyone at Fordham does well locally or this school is so respected in the area. I think that means small law for a lot of folks and more than anyone who is applying to the school really knows. The people who do well and get biglaw do not want to hear the school being talked badly about and that makes sense, but there is a whole world of have nots that have difficulty finding employment, who took the gamble and lost.

Edit: I do have a job lined up paying >150. It is not biglaw but close enough for me. I got the job through connections I had prior to school.

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Grizz
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Grizz » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:25 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:I'm still curious about 7 screeners. Is that really the expected number from Fordham at that class rank? Fordham is somewhat of a preselect/lottery mix, right? Just seems low to me.

This. I've read Fordham's OCI thread.

thrillerjesus
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby thrillerjesus » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:02 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
Objection wrote:With no debt, who cares about big law?

I'd wager <10% of people who go to law school aspire to be big law lawyers, and that may be being generous.

Are you really one of those people?


Who cares what they aspired to be when they went to law school. Once they get to law school and either discover what biglaw is and how much it pays or realize how much debt they are going to be in >80% then aspire to be big law lawyers. If you think less than 10% of students at any top 50 school are aspiring to be in biglaw you're a wrong.


Looks like you missed the part where OP was on an almost free ride. Anyone who will be graduating with minimal debt and still wants biglaw is either an idiot or else just has no idea of what that life is like.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Cautionary Tale

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:27 pm

thrillerjesus wrote:Anyone who will be graduating with minimal debt and still wants biglaw is either an idiot or else just has no idea of what that life is like.


This is really stupid.




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