Was this year worst than last?

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Helmholtz
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:48 pm

Bronte wrote:Actually the fact that 30% of law students are unable to practice law is pretty staggering. And that stat is likely closer to 50% when you move out of the T14. The fact that a third of JDs can't practice is OMGWTFNOWAY.


Yeah, I agree. If you told somebody who hasn't done research into law schools (and maybe hasn't read some of the mainstream news stories that have cropped up over the past year), I think they would be absolutely shocked to learn that so many people attend law school without ever being able to practice as an attorney.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:21 pm

GULC 2L here. This is obviously anecdotal, but I think my classmates and I did better than expected. Most people I know in the top half of the class that wanted biglaw received at least one offer.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:GULC 2L here. This is obviously anecdotal, but I think my classmates and I did better than expected. Most people I know in the top half of the class that wanted biglaw received at least one offer.


You're going to have to do better than that to turn the optimism on.

keg411
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby keg411 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:GULC 2L here. This is obviously anecdotal, but I think my classmates and I did better than expected. Most people I know in the top half of the class that wanted biglaw received at least one offer.


You're going to have to do better than that to turn the optimism on.


WTF? Why? You only need one job.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:GULC 2L here. This is obviously anecdotal, but I think my classmates and I did better than expected. Most people I know in the top half of the class that wanted biglaw received at least one offer.


You're going to have to do better than that to turn the optimism on.


I was pretty happy given the egregious amount of "only top 1/4 is safe for biglaw at GULC" trolling on this and other forums. And yes, operative words were "at least one." Many people have multiple offers in hand.

The point is, most of my GULC friends seem to be headed off to biglaw. Most people who wanted biglaw and participated in early interview week (our biggest OCI program) seem to have had some luck at GULC this year. Granted, those that I know below median didn't bother participating in EIW. And again, this is all anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt. Maybe my circle of friends is just lucky or non-awkward.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at NDCG, and so are two of my friends. I got 10 callbacks and two offers so far. One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at my school, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at Cornell, and so are two of my friends. I have 10 callbacks and two offers so far (3 recent ones haven't got back to me yet). One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at Cornell, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?


I think that supports my argument that the recovery has only happened for the t14 schools. People at WUSTL below top 20% still cannot get jobs and are passed up for median at schools like GULC/Cornell....

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minnbills
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at Cornell, and so are two of my friends. I have 10 callbacks and two offers so far (3 recent ones haven't got back to me yet). One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at Cornell, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?


Do you have a sense of how bottom 1/3 people are doing? I take it from your post that even slightly below median people are doing well.

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Bronte
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Bronte » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at Cornell, and so are two of my friends. I have 10 callbacks and two offers so far (3 recent ones haven't got back to me yet). One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at Cornell, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?


I think it's indisputable that the market is significantly better this year. But I'm at Michigan and while the offers are flowing very well for above median people, others are definitely struggling. It's 2007 for median and above at T14s, but it's very much ITE for everyone else because non-NLJ firms and government orgs are hiring many fewer candidates.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby MC Southstar » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:50 pm

People around median at my school (MVP) seem to be doing fine, but I have no idea who is in the bottom 1/3 and how they are doing.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:56 pm

Everyone I know at my lower T14 with a 3.1+ has a job. I don't know anyone with below a 3.1, so basically every single person I know has a job. Most people around median have 2 or 3 V30-V100 options.

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minnbills
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Everyone I know at my lower T14 with a 3.1+ has a job. I don't know anyone with below a 3.1, so basically every single person I know has a job. Most people around median have 2 or 3 V30-V100 options.


What's your school's curve?

So far ITT it seems like the conventional "T14 or bust" mentality seems validated.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:58 pm

Here (ND) it seems slightly better...but still, outside the top 10-15% is rough sledding. I don't have an offer yet but I'm going on anecdotal stuff.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:14 pm

Threads like this make me feel bad for taking a v40 offer that I thought was a great fit, like people are going to report that T6 top whatever% can't even get v15 offers.

Anyway. My anecdotal observation is that hiring seems to have picked up this year (less cancelled summer classes, for one) but class sizes are still small, meaning that firms can be more selective with non-T14 schools. I think it's good. Smaller class sizes mean less chance of a no offer, and I think it might just be a more pleasant experience. But the concept that you need to get better grades at lower ranked schools to be competitive isn't novel or shocking.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:06 pm

minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Everyone I know at my lower T14 with a 3.1+ has a job. I don't know anyone with below a 3.1, so basically every single person I know has a job. Most people around median have 2 or 3 V30-V100 options.


What's your school's curve?

So far ITT it seems like the conventional "T14 or bust" mentality seems validated.



Median is 3.3 at my school. I really think my class is killing it.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:09 pm

Guess I can discount the economy as the cause of my complete inability to snag a job of any kind and go straight to lack of interviewing skills as the sole culprit. Thanks, Thread!

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:10 pm

i'm a 3.4-3.5 at gulc/ut/ucla/vandy with no offers. maybe i just suck? but i thought i was a good interviewer. law review people are doing very well. the rest (below law review but even above median) - i hear very mixed reports.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at Cornell, and so are two of my friends. I have 10 callbacks and two offers so far (3 recent ones haven't got back to me yet). One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at Cornell, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?


I do not go to Cornell, but I do know at least one Cornell 3.5 (which I presume is around top 1/3) person who has 0 callbacks. I think the people who are struggling do not advertise that fact will not tell with CBs and offers (and that fact is generally known). Thus it appears that "everyone" has offers and is doing fine, when it's really not that way. FWIW at my T10, i know a lot of people who have multiple offers, but I know a lot of medianish people who have nothing. I also know a few people below median who have offers. It's really all over the place. From having talked to upper classmen last year, I think we're doing slightly better than last year, but this is really hard to tell.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:i'm a 3.4-3.5 at gulc/ut/ucla/vandy with no offers. maybe i just suck? but i thought i was a good interviewer. law review people are doing very well. the rest (below law review but even above median) - i hear very mixed reports.


I'm biased, but this grouping just doesn't seem quite right to me. I know the USN ranking difference is slight between these, but I don't think employers outside of LA/Tex look at UCLA or UT as being fully the same at Georgetown. Just look on some big firms websites, and compare the number of Georgetown alums to the number of UT or Vandy grads. Georgetown, while clearly not on the same level as Harvard or Chicago or whatever, is much more fairly grouped with Northwestern/Duke/Cornell, whose names evoke equivalent responses from interviewers.

So if you're a 3.4 at Vandy, I wouldn't be on here comparing yourself to 3.4 at Georgetown (which for us is maybe top 40%) who has offers.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at Cornell, and so are two of my friends. I have 10 callbacks and two offers so far (3 recent ones haven't got back to me yet). One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at Cornell, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?


I do not go to Cornell, but I do know at least one Cornell 3.5 (which I presume is around top 1/3) person who has 0 callbacks. I think the people who are struggling do not advertise that fact will not tell with CBs and offers (and that fact is generally known). Thus it appears that "everyone" has offers and is doing fine, when it's really not that way. FWIW at my T10, i know a lot of people who have multiple offers, but I know a lot of medianish people who have nothing. I also know a few people below median who have offers. It's really all over the place. From having talked to upper classmen last year, I think we're doing slightly better than last year, but this is really hard to tell.


That may be the result of bad bidding. It's hard for people with 3.5x, because they shouldn't really touch too many top firms, but they may feel overqualified for mid-range firms, and they certainly would not feel like applying to lower-range (<V50) firms. I have seen this happen to one of my friends. He got dinged after the first wave of screening/callbacks. Fortunately, he got one offer from a V25 at the end.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most people with below a 3.2 at my top 10 are struggling--many have no callbacks. Anyone from 3.2-3.3 depends on a variety of factors. 3.4 and up are having a blast.


I am a 3.2 at NDCG, and so are two of my friends. I got 10 callbacks and two offers so far. One friend has one offer and is waiting to hear from a few callbacks. The other has two offers from V30s already. All non-urm. I mostly socialize with median-ish students at my school, and I don't know one single person who hasn't got a V100 offer.

I cannot imagine how much better pre-2007 could be like. Me getting a V5?


(good interviewer)

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:08 pm

What is this shit about v5 or v10 as measures of success and selectivity? You realize that firms like Irell, Munger, Williams & Connolly, Susman, etc. are far more selective than Skadden, DP, etc., have better leverage, pay more, have less attrition, and are generally better in every way? You can't rank law firms like you can rank law schools. Who cares if you are in at a v5 vs a v15 firm?

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What is this shit about v5 or v10 as measures of success and selectivity? You realize that firms like Irell, Munger, Williams & Connolly, Susman, etc. are far more selective than Skadden, DP, etc., have better leverage, pay more, have less attrition, and are generally better in every way? You can't rank law firms like you can rank law schools. Who cares if you are in at a v5 vs a v15 firm?


Thank you.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What is this shit about v5 or v10 as measures of success and selectivity? You realize that firms like Irell, Munger, Williams & Connolly, Susman, etc. are far more selective than Skadden, DP, etc., have better leverage, pay more, have less attrition, and are generally better in every way? You can't rank law firms like you can rank law schools. Who cares if you are in at a v5 vs a v15 firm?


Considering NYC is, by far, the largest market for law school students, it sort of makes sense (even with Chambers' NY rankings, there are only six firms with Elite-Band 1 ratings in both Commercial Litigation and Corporate Law—and five of those six are V5 firms). I don't think anybody going to Skadden NY considers themselves more successful than somebody going to Bartlit Beck, Keker, or Kellogg Huber. So, yeah, thanks for opening all of our eyes, I guess. I would thank you personally, but since you're anonymous (probably out of a humble desire not to be forced to bask in our admiration for your wise insights), a general thank you to Mr. Anonymous will have to suffice.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:32 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What is this shit about v5 or v10 as measures of success and selectivity? You realize that firms like Irell, Munger, Williams & Connolly, Susman, etc. are far more selective than Skadden, DP, etc., have better leverage, pay more, have less attrition, and are generally better in every way? You can't rank law firms like you can rank law schools. Who cares if you are in at a v5 vs a v15 firm?


Considering NYC, is by far, the largest market for law school students, it sort of makes sense (even with Chambers' NY rankings, there are only six firms with Elite-Band 1 ratings in both Commercial Litigation and Corporate Law—and five of those six are V5 firms). I don't think anybody going to Skadden NY considers themselves more successful than somebody going to Bartlit Beck, Keker, or Kellogg Huber. So, yeah, thanks for opening all of our eyes, I guess.


What the hell does that have to do with selectivity? If anything what you're saying strengthens his point. NYC being the largest market does not mean it should also be held in higher regard in terms of selectivity; that would mean that it's also easiest to get a job there. Making that a factor in selectivity doesn't make any sense.

The other thing about the firms that he mentioned is that they don't go "deep" into anyone's class. They want tip top grades at NYU down to GULC. And the soft factors that he mentioned about them are frankly, a huge deal (partnership prospects, pay, attrition rates). Even though people on here act like they aren't.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.




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