Was this year worst than last?

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:at WUSTL...
I think this year's recruiting is just as bad as last year. I don't really see a change in number of firms that came on campus.


WUSTL is a lot different than vandy on up. Here you don't hear people talking about V20s or V50s, you hear people talking about how they got a callback at the local firms that collectively hire about 35 people a year, pay 30K below market and pretend that you won't be worked as hard as Chicago, etc.

Then you have the IP secure people, but they talk about firms that only IP know/care about

Then you have a huge chunk of the class that didn't even get interviews at OCI. I had interviews each day of the week for EIW and only saw the same faces.

Some people don't even seem to know whats going on/or are keeping quite about their striking out

At the end of the day it's hard to tell if this is better or worse than last year


A lot different than USC too.

Wustl's stats are similar to USC/UCLA/Vandy/Cornell but our placement numbers are worse than GW, BU, BC.
The difference between Vandy and Wustl is equal to the difference between Wustl and Villanova.

The quality of "midlaw" and regional biglaw is terrible at Wustl.
Also, WUSTL IS NOT a powerhouse in the Midwest. When I go Cincinnati for a callback and the HR lady doesn't know anything about WUSTL that is a bad sign.....

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minnbills
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It is heavily dependent on school - for T20s, it may as well be C/O 2012 OCI.

At my T20 if you're out of the top 1/4 you have no shot whatsoever.


That sucks, not even with nlj firms? (As in, not vault but still market?)


Right, because a firm with fewer hours and market pay and a small summer program will be more inclined to hire less-than-top talent?

Not happening man.


So non-vault firms in stl are not interested in hiring wustl grads?

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:08 am

minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It is heavily dependent on school - for T20s, it may as well be C/O 2012 OCI.

At my T20 if you're out of the top 1/4 you have no shot whatsoever.


That sucks, not even with nlj firms? (As in, not vault but still market?)


Right, because a firm with fewer hours and market pay and a small summer program will be more inclined to hire less-than-top talent?

Not happening man.


So non-vault firms in stl are not interested in hiring wustl grads?


I can't speak for wustl but the Midwest is overall a terrible choice for schools.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:12 am

minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It is heavily dependent on school - for T20s, it may as well be C/O 2012 OCI.

At my T20 if you're out of the top 1/4 you have no shot whatsoever.


That sucks, not even with nlj firms? (As in, not vault but still market?)


Right, because a firm with fewer hours and market pay and a small summer program will be more inclined to hire less-than-top talent?

Not happening man.


So non-vault firms in stl are not interested in hiring wustl grads?
Whoops didn't read that well. They're not interested in hiring anybody is more the problem.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:23 am

5/270 = 1.85 percent. Sure there's more with vault jobs and offers, but an overwhelming majority of the class will be offerless, and over half will be unemployed at graduation. I too interviewed every day of OCI and saw the same 30 people. From my perspective, most of my interviews seemed to be courtesy interviews since they had to pick 15 kids, and I was the 15th best resume in front of them. I haven't heard of anyone getting anything outside of the top 20% without having IP, ivy undergrad, or diversity.

And to answer the saint louis question, those firms would rather take SLU kids than WashU. The offers I know of are all over the country - a lot from mass mails - and I would say that 10 Wash U students max get a job in St.L that pays six figures.

edit: didn't quote and the 5 kids with vault offers post is gone, but that is why that stat is there

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:5/270 = 1.85 percent. Sure there's more with vault jobs and offers, but an overwhelming majority of the class will be offerless, and over half will be unemployed at graduation. I too interviewed every day of OCI and saw the same 30 people. From my perspective, most of my interviews seemed to be courtesy interviews since they had to pick 15 kids, and I was the 15th best resume in front of them. I haven't heard of anyone getting anything outside of the top 20% without having IP, ivy undergrad, or diversity.

And to answer the saint louis question, those firms would rather take SLU kids than WashU. The offers I know of are all over the country - a lot from mass mails - and I would say that 10 Wash U students max get a job in St.L that pays six figures.

edit: didn't quote and the 5 kids with vault offers post is gone, but that is why that stat is there
It was anecdotal, I was just saying (in a completely non-responsive way since I misread the post I was replying to) that I don't know many employment outcomes, but I can think of several Vault offers off the top of my head.

They take SLU people because the top 10% of their class wants to stay in St Louis. Ours mostly doesn't. Unfortunate that we match up with them like that in the eyes of employers, but from their perspective, if they can get a top 5% SLU kid instead of a top 25% WashU kid... Kind of a no brainer.

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Bronte
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Bronte » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:35 am

If you want to work at a law firm, you should not even vaguely consider going outside the T14. Even that requires the assumption of a significant amount of risk.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:45 am

Bronte wrote:If you want to work at a law firm, you should not even vaguely consider going outside the T14. Even that requires the assumption of a significant amount of risk.


What if you're trying to do something like family law, plaintiffs' side, etc?

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Bronte
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Bronte » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:02 pm

minnbills wrote:
Bronte wrote:If you want to work at a law firm, you should not even vaguely consider going outside the T14. Even that requires the assumption of a significant amount of risk.


What if you're trying to do something like family law, plaintiffs' side, etc?


I don't know much about those areas of law. However, the key point is that the last reported statistic shows that only 68% of the class of 2010 got jobs requiring bar passage. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2010 ... ndings.pdf. At lower T14s that was more like 85%. In other words, going to law school is a huge risk and does not guarantee you will become an attorney.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:5/270 = 1.85 percent. Sure there's more with vault jobs and offers, but an overwhelming majority of the class will be offerless, and over half will be unemployed at graduation. I too interviewed every day of OCI and saw the same 30 people. From my perspective, most of my interviews seemed to be courtesy interviews since they had to pick 15 kids, and I was the 15th best resume in front of them. I haven't heard of anyone getting anything outside of the top 20% without having IP, ivy undergrad, or diversity.

And to answer the saint louis question, those firms would rather take SLU kids than WashU. The offers I know of are all over the country - a lot from mass mails - and I would say that 10 Wash U students max get a job in St.L that pays six figures.

edit: didn't quote and the 5 kids with vault offers post is gone, but that is why that stat is there
It was anecdotal, I was just saying (in a completely non-responsive way since I misread the post I was replying to) that I don't know many employment outcomes, but I can think of several Vault offers off the top of my head.

They take SLU people because the top 10% of their class wants to stay in St Louis. Ours mostly doesn't. Unfortunate that we match up with them like that in the eyes of employers, but from their perspective, if they can get a top 5% SLU kid instead of a top 25% WashU kid... Kind of a no brainer.


I think that s the biggest difference between Washu and other schools like Michigan who dominate their local market. In Michigan, law firms treat Michigan grads like gold. That can't be said about Washu and St. Louis.

Washu has a really weak connection with St. Louis.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:10 pm

Bronte wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Bronte wrote:If you want to work at a law firm, you should not even vaguely consider going outside the T14. Even that requires the assumption of a significant amount of risk.


What if you're trying to do something like family law, plaintiffs' side, etc?


I don't know much about those areas of law. However, the key point is that the last reported statistic shows that only 68% of the class of 2010 got jobs requiring bar passage. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2010 ... ndings.pdf. At lower T14s that was more like 85%. In other words, going to law school is a huge risk and does not guarantee you will become an attorney.


Sure but not all people going to law school are doing it to become attorneys. I know that many investment firms have JDs, and I don't think bar passage is required for those jobs. There are also dual MBA/JDs who are probably more prevalent at the higher ranked schools with strong business programs.

I'm not saying you're wrong about people not being able to find work (something everyone on this site is well aware of) but I would imagine most new lawyers are finding work with small law firms doing things like PI and Family Law and are coming from more regional schools.

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Bronte
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Bronte » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think that s the biggest difference between Washu and other schools like Michigan who dominate their local market. In Michigan, law firms treat Michigan grads like gold. That can't be said about Washu and St. Louis.

Washu has a really weak connection with St. Louis.


Regarding Michigan placing in Michigan, this is true of Michigan grads with extremely strong ties to Michigan and the specific location of the law firm. Lower ranked students who were originally planning to go to NY or Chicago do not have the Michigan market as a fallback.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby gulcregret » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:13 pm

At GULC, this year was far better than last year. Not even close really. I've seen tentative data, even though the season isn't quite finished. On the other hand, clerkships are a disaster this year for 3Ls; not that they have ever been great at GULC (only about 5% per year get federal clerkships), but this year a lot of top 5-10% students were completely shut out of interviews.

But biglaw hiring is up, meaning there will be less competition for other "lower tier" jobs. Unfortunately, gov't and mid law are not hiring as much as they did in the past either. And the next couple of years should feel the lag (with increased biglaw hiring other jobs wil be less competitive), assuming offer rates stay high, that is.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Bronte » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:15 pm

minnbills wrote:Sure but not all people going to law school are doing it to become attorneys. I know that many investment firms have JDs, and I don't think bar passage is required for those jobs. There are also dual MBA/JDs who are probably more prevalent at the higher ranked schools with strong business programs.

I'm not saying you're wrong about people not being able to find work (something everyone on this site is well aware of) but I would imagine most new lawyers are finding work with small law firms doing things like PI and Family Law and are coming from more regional schools.


An extremely small percentage of JDs go into white shoe nonlegal work like investment banking and consulting. The vast majority of people who go to law school do so to become attorneys and either achieve that goal or end up returning to the same field from which they came or completely unemployed. (The overall unemployment rate for the class of 2010 was 15%.)

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:39 pm

Median at lower T14, 8cbs, multiple offers, accepting V10. The market is definitely much better than last year.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:54 pm

DC seemed just as hard to crack this year. Every firm I looked at kept their class sizes steady. NYC a different story though for sure.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:18 pm

At UIUC people at the tippy top of the class seem to be getting more offers, but that doesn't necessarily translate to more jobs overall. With the whole scandal thing, I can't imagine next year will be any better.

I'd guesstimate that maybe 10% are getting vault firms, and 15-20% get NLJ250. That group with jobs is composed of people in the top 10% with good resumes and solid interviewing skills, along with people in the top 20-25% with exceptional resumes or interviewing skills who end up filling the gaps left by poor interviewers in the top 10%.

I would think very long and very hard about attending a non T6/10 law school.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:13 pm

i think the field of law is a microcosm of the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. OCI at "middle class" schools like WUSTL and Emory aren't getting any better while the "rich" schools ie T14s are improving.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:20 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:All of my below-median T14 friends have at least one offer at this time. The above-median ones are talking about choosing between S&C and Cleary. I think the hiring is up tremendously.


S&C won't even talk to people below the top 10% at the lower t14s.


Wrong. Very wrong. I am at a T20 school (somewhere between 15-20), and know of a few that had call backs at S&C in NYC and DC, and know at least one person who has an S&C offer. The person with an offer is not top 10% but probably somewhere in the top 20%.

Hiring has to be better this year. I am just above median (probably top 40%...maybe top 35% at best) and have four V100 offers...and would probably have had one or two more had I not made the decision to withdraw after accepting a V20 offer. I also had a V5 offer at a satellite office.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i think the field of law is a microcosm of the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. OCI at "middle class" schools like WUSTL and Emory aren't getting any better while the "rich" schools ie T14s are improving.


WUSTL is middle class? Wouldn't bottom T1 and T2 be middle class?

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:27 pm

Bronte wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Bronte wrote:If you want to work at a law firm, you should not even vaguely consider going outside the T14. Even that requires the assumption of a significant amount of risk.


What if you're trying to do something like family law, plaintiffs' side, etc?


I don't know much about those areas of law. However, the key point is that the last reported statistic shows that only 68% of the class of 2010 got jobs requiring bar passage. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2010 ... ndings.pdf. At lower T14s that was more like 85%. In other words, going to law school is a huge risk and does not guarantee you will become an attorney.


OMGWTFNOWAY!!!?11!1!?!?!?!?!11

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:at a T6; not sure about other schools, but here it seems strongly suggestive that interviewing skills mattered much more than grades (save maybe the most selective firms like W&C, Bois, Wachtell, etc.) with a number of people I know at or slightly below median nabbing ridiculous numbers of callbacks and offers at great firms (and the small handful that struck out being all over the place)

Yeah, I think interview skills seem to be making a big difference. We're mainly preselect here (T30), so in terms of getting screening interviews it seemed like people on law review were always walking around in suits, people on secondaries were doing ok, others were looking bleak, etc. But in terms of converting screeners into callbacks and callbacks into offers, it's more seemingly randomly distributed, which to me suggests it's far more about interview skills. Not even a work experience thing, as far as I can tell (though that doesn't hurt, it doesn't seem to be required either).

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby thexfactor » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:32 pm

minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i think the field of law is a microcosm of the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. OCI at "middle class" schools like WUSTL and Emory aren't getting any better while the "rich" schools ie T14s are improving.


WUSTL is middle class? Wouldn't bottom T1 and T2 be middle class?


I think that depends on your definition of "rich" lol Are you a republican or democrat?

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Bronte
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Bronte » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:37 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
Bronte wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Bronte wrote:If you want to work at a law firm, you should not even vaguely consider going outside the T14. Even that requires the assumption of a significant amount of risk.


What if you're trying to do something like family law, plaintiffs' side, etc?


I don't know much about those areas of law. However, the key point is that the last reported statistic shows that only 68% of the class of 2010 got jobs requiring bar passage. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2010 ... ndings.pdf. At lower T14s that was more like 85%. In other words, going to law school is a huge risk and does not guarantee you will become an attorney.


OMGWTFNOWAY!!!?11!1!?!?!?!?!11


Actually the fact that 30% of law students are unable to practice law is pretty staggering. And that stat is likely closer to 50% when you move out of the T14. The fact that a third of JDs can't practice is OMGWTFNOWAY.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:40 pm

thexfactor wrote:
minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i think the field of law is a microcosm of the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. OCI at "middle class" schools like WUSTL and Emory aren't getting any better while the "rich" schools ie T14s are improving.


WUSTL is middle class? Wouldn't bottom T1 and T2 be middle class?


I think that depends on your definition of "rich" lol Are you a republican or democrat?


D. "Rich" to me is having enough money that you don't have to work and can perpetuate a fairly luxurious lifestyle.

I see the point. I mean, outside of the super-elite elite schools (T6) I think it is pretty much a gamble. I just think it's a fucking sad commentary that schools like WUSTL, UMN, GW etc. are struggling to place grads in even decent smallaw jobs at this point. People going into these schools generally have strong qualifications IMO.




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