Was this year worst than last?

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mrloblaw
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby mrloblaw » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.


I had almost the exact same experience, and from what I am seeing this has been the trend at my school. Top 1/3 at a T30, 2nd journal, 2 v50 offers, waiting on 2 v30's. No URM or IP UG, but 3 years of work experience, which has been the topic of conversation in all of my interviews.


Perhaps law firms are finally realizing that when the business model includes laying off 90% of their recruits before they need to exercise more judgment or creative thought than an untrained orangutan, they don't need to worry about fighting for top talent to fill more than a small percentage of their SA vacancies.

If true, biglaw associate quality of life will likely start heading even further downhill as the students lose the few bargaining chips we've got.

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:58 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.


I had almost the exact same experience, and from what I am seeing this has been the trend at my school. Top 1/3 at a T30, 2nd journal, 2 v50 offers, waiting on 2 v30's. No URM or IP UG, but 3 years of work experience, which has been the topic of conversation in all of my interviews.


Perhaps law firms are finally realizing that when the business model includes laying off 90% of their recruits before they need to exercise more judgment or creative thought than an untrained orangutan, they don't need to worry about fighting for top talent to fill more than a small percentage of their SA vacancies.

If true, biglaw associate quality of life will likely start heading even further downhill as the students lose the few bargaining chips we've got.


Or maybe the work never really required "top talent" to begin with, and they just want some reasonably smart people who are easy to get along with.

mrloblaw
Posts: 534
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby mrloblaw » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Or maybe the work never really required "top talent" to begin with, and they just want some reasonably smart people who are easy to get along with.


That's exactly the point I made. Working in biglaw is by far the easiest job you can have right out of school. There's zero responsibility, zero need to interact directly with clients in a meaningful way or (as a litigator) set foot in a courtroom. The only requirement is that you submit to slave labor hours.

I'm not sure how we ever reached a system by which biglaw fought for prize students to begin with. The model should have always been to lose those kids to USAO/DOJ/etc. and pick them up as laterals once they knew their shit by paying them inordinate salaries.

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:32 pm

minnbills wrote:
Grizz wrote:
minnbills wrote:So, I know we're just dealing with anecdotes but would you all agree that at this point it's T14 feast with just about everyone else in a famine?

Define feast and famine.


50+ % of T14ers are getting one or more offers, while only the very top (5-10%ile) of T25s are getting anything, and everyone else is getting nothing.


For me T30 Top 10% LR significant business WE = 1 V15 offer and dings the rest of the way down the board

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:46 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Or maybe the work never really required "top talent" to begin with, and they just want some reasonably smart people who are easy to get along with.


That's exactly the point I made. Working in biglaw is by far the easiest job you can have right out of school. There's zero responsibility, zero need to interact directly with clients in a meaningful way or (as a litigator) set foot in a courtroom. The only requirement is that you submit to slave labor hours.

I'm not sure how we ever reached a system by which biglaw fought for prize students to begin with. The model should have always been to lose those kids to USAO/DOJ/etc. and pick them up as laterals once they knew their shit by paying them inordinate salaries.


With the credentials needed to get DOJ or USAO jobs... this is basically what is happening now. Students with top credentials, plus relevant work experience, are going to the DOJ, and lateraling from relevant agencies seems to be easier than from other firms.

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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:07 pm

minnbills wrote:That's good to hear. As the application season is starting to take off my anxiety over the labor market is really high- I don't have the #s to crack the T14 and I know I'll probably end up at one of: UMN, BC, Wisc, or WUSTL; I'm just terrified of not finding work.


It seems premature to have high anxiety when you haven't taken on substantial debt load or even started law school. Why not take some time off and get some valuable work experience and retake your LSAT to put you in position to either go to a higher ranked school or get a scholarship at one of the schools you've listed? Either would reduce your anxiety.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.



This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.



This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?


Come again?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:41 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.



This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?


Come again?


So in other words, yes. :roll: Either that or you don't know what top 1/3 means as a percentage--which is very likely since we're talking about law students.

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:19 pm

I could quickly be proven wrong but I get the sense that things at Northwestern were pretty solid this year. Most of the folks I know are happy and it seems like Chicago firms might even be thawing just a little (knocks on wood).

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:25 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.



This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?


+1, and depending on the T20, firms have in the past consistently dug below median, so to say that going only to top 1/3 is the equivalent of not caring about grades is just absolutely absurd.

de5igual
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby de5igual » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:26 pm

mistakenly clicked anon...I posted the above

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:25 pm

Between bottom third and median at Penn. Got 13 CBs, accepted 8, and got 4 offers - all V100 NYC biglaw. Accepted with a V30 and couldn't be happier. No WE & not AA, but probably a strong interviewer. Everyone who spent their bids on NYC got something, regardless of grades. The only people without jobs seem to be folks who targeted rough markets - Cal, Boston, etc. Things seem pretty great...

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Between bottom third and median at Penn. Got 13 CBs, accepted 8, and got 4 offers - all V100 NYC biglaw. Accepted with a V30 and couldn't be happier. No WE & not AA, but probably a strong interviewer. Everyone who spent their bids on NYC got something, regardless of grades. The only people without jobs seem to be folks who targeted rough markets - Cal, Boston, etc. Things seem pretty great...


Do you know anyone of Penn who bid NYC with a 2.8 GPA and got a firm job? If not, then I wouldn't be so cavalier about saying "regardless of grades". A lot of people seem to have this fallacy that there is a GPA floor at top schools just because they don't personally know someone (or know someone willing to admit to) having certain GPAs.

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.



This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?


+1, and depending on the T20, firms have in the past consistently dug below median, so to say that going only to top 1/3 is the equivalent of not caring about grades is just absolutely absurd.


Everything is relative. So when you expected firms to only open their doors to the top 10-15%, going for the top 35% is digging deep, relatively.

de5igual
Posts: 1463
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:52 pm

Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby de5igual » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.



This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?


+1, and depending on the T20, firms have in the past consistently dug below median, so to say that going only to top 1/3 is the equivalent of not caring about grades is just absolutely absurd.


Everything is relative. So when you expected firms to only open their doors to the top 10-15%, going for the top 35% is digging deep, relatively.


who set these expectations? the TLS gods? a lot of numbers get thrown around these forums that aren't really based on fact. even in the worst years, it's never been only top 10-15% getting biglaw at the UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC level.

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:53 am

f0bolous wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I agree with the notion that this year firm's loosened the GPA requirements, allowing them to go deeper into the class and focus more on fit.

I got VERY lucky: (only) top 1/3, T20, secondary journal but got the exact V30 firm I wanted doing the best corporate work in their city.

Once I got into the CB stage and the focus was no longer my grades, my previous work experience sealed the deal since it helped with the "fit" component. But my grades did shut me out of many other cities and firms (DC and NYC were just too competitive). I am lucky that one decided to give me a shot and see who I was beyond the resume paper.


This thing with "firms must not care about grades" since they're hiring "all the way down to top 1/3" is ridiculous. Are you serious? You're saying that firms are focusing on "fit" because they are hiring people who rank higher than 70 percent of their class? Is this website that pretentious?


+1, and depending on the T20, firms have in the past consistently dug below median, so to say that going only to top 1/3 is the equivalent of not caring about grades is just absolutely absurd.


Everything is relative. So when you expected firms to only open their doors to the top 10-15%, going for the top 35% is digging deep, relatively.


who set these expectations? the TLS gods? a lot of numbers get thrown around these forums that aren't really based on fact. even in the worst years, it's never been only top 10-15% getting biglaw at the UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC level.


I dont think he was thinking about UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC

he was thinking about WUSTL/Minn. At Wustl even during good times i dont think anyone was reaching below median. Now it is more like top 20%.

Anonymous User
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:27 pm

So there is no huge difference between being top 20% or top 30% at a T14? It just comes down to interview skills once you are above median?

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Grizz
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So there is no huge difference between being top 20% or top 30% at a T14? It just comes down to interview skills once you are above median?

It's always some combo of grades, ties, interview skill, and luck. There's no magic cutoff where it just depends only on interview skills.

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20130312
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:42 pm

Grizz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So there is no huge difference between being top 20% or top 30% at a T14? It just comes down to interview skills once you are above median?

It's always some combo of grades, ties, interview skill, and luck. There's no magic cutoff where it just depends only on interview skills.


Right, so make sure you buy some nice ties. I hear Brooks Brothers is solid.

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Grizz
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Re: Was this year worst than last?

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:55 pm

Brioni or bust.




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