Fact about thank-you letters

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UT1502
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Fact about thank-you letters

Postby UT1502 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:51 pm

Fact: everywhere I wrote thank-you letters to, I got dinged, and everywhere I didn't, I got a callback. Also, I didn't write thank-you letters for my first callback and got an offer.

THEY ARE POISON

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:52 pm

Correlation =/= Causation brother

Anonymous User
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:55 pm

I only wrote thank-you letters to one firm I did a callback with: A V5 who should have been out of my range grade-wise. Got an offer. Then again, I got offers from firms I never sent anything to. I am completely in the "doesn't make a difference at all" camp. So why did I even bother writing letters to the V5 interviewers? I really bonded with one of my interviewers and he sent me a very nice e-mail the next day, I followed up with a very genuine thank-you letter, and I thought it might have been bad form to only thank him, so I sent personalized thank-yous to all of my interviewers. That was the only reason I did it. I can't imagine that it hurt, can't really imagined it helped.

UT1502
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby UT1502 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I only wrote thank-you letters to one firm I did a callback with: A V5 who should have been out of my range grade-wise. Got an offer. Then again, I got offers from firms I never sent anything to. I am completely in the "doesn't make a difference at all" camp.

Yeah, I think at best it's a good way to show them a typo or something. I swear, though, it was perfectly divided on those lines. I might just be an idiot at writing letters, though. Or it could be irrelevant because it's not like we're talking about 50 firms here.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:13 am

UT1502 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I only wrote thank-you letters to one firm I did a callback with: A V5 who should have been out of my range grade-wise. Got an offer. Then again, I got offers from firms I never sent anything to. I am completely in the "doesn't make a difference at all" camp.

Yeah, I think at best it's a good way to show them a typo or something. I swear, though, it was perfectly divided on those lines. I might just be an idiot at writing letters, though. Or it could be irrelevant because it's not like we're talking about 50 firms here.


I wrote thank you letters to my top firm, which is also a very high ranking vault firm. I got the offer. Also got offers from firms that I did not send thank you notes to. I think it is a matter of whether you truly connected with the people you interviewed with. If you feel they are appropriate and needed in that particular circumstance, send them.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
UT1502 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I only wrote thank-you letters to one firm I did a callback with: A V5 who should have been out of my range grade-wise. Got an offer. Then again, I got offers from firms I never sent anything to. I am completely in the "doesn't make a difference at all" camp.

Yeah, I think at best it's a good way to show them a typo or something. I swear, though, it was perfectly divided on those lines. I might just be an idiot at writing letters, though. Or it could be irrelevant because it's not like we're talking about 50 firms here.


I wrote thank you letters to my top firm, which is also a very high ranking vault firm. I got the offer. Also got offers from firms that I did not send thank you notes to. I think it is a matter of whether you truly connected with the people you interviewed with. If you feel they are appropriate and needed in that particular circumstance, send them.


I think using thank-you notes to curry favor is weird.

Frank Kimball on ATL suggests that you should send thank-you notes because it's good manners, and the right thing to do. I agree with him.

Look, if the firm considers it a + in your favor, that's great. But if you are lucky enough to receive a call back, you should send a thank-you for the "free lunch," the opportunity to interview with people who have undoubtedly pressing schedules, and the general sense that good etiquette does not expect reciprocation.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:Frank Kimball on ATL suggests that you should send thank-you notes because it's good manners, and the right thing to do. I agree with him.


Frank Kimball also came to our school and told us to have business cards printed up so we can hand them to associates at the tables at the little law-firm open-house/convention we had.

luthersloan
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby luthersloan » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
UT1502 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I only wrote thank-you letters to one firm I did a callback with: A V5 who should have been out of my range grade-wise. Got an offer. Then again, I got offers from firms I never sent anything to. I am completely in the "doesn't make a difference at all" camp.

Yeah, I think at best it's a good way to show them a typo or something. I swear, though, it was perfectly divided on those lines. I might just be an idiot at writing letters, though. Or it could be irrelevant because it's not like we're talking about 50 firms here.


I wrote thank you letters to my top firm, which is also a very high ranking vault firm. I got the offer. Also got offers from firms that I did not send thank you notes to. I think it is a matter of whether you truly connected with the people you interviewed with. If you feel they are appropriate and needed in that particular circumstance, send them.


I think using thank-you notes to curry favor is weird.

Frank Kimball on ATL suggests that you should send thank-you notes because it's good manners, and the right thing to do. I agree with him.

Look, if the firm considers it a + in your favor, that's great. But if you are lucky enough to receive a call back, you should send a thank-you for the "free lunch," the opportunity to interview with people who have undoubtedly pressing schedules, and the general sense that good etiquette does not expect reciprocation.


The problem with that analysis is they are not doing it for you, it is totally self-interested on their part. Namely, they need new employees, and they think you might fit the bill. I would agree with you wholeheartedly if it were an informational interview were a person is taking time out of their day to do you a favor. It is really just business, you are both there because you have something to gain, no one is doing anyone a favor.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:41 am

luthersloan wrote:The problem with that analysis is they are not doing it for you, it is totally self-interested on their part. It is really just business, you are both there because you have something to gain, no one is doing anyone a favor.


+1

They're not throwing your grandmother a birthday party; they're trying to get you to work for them. They will gladly toss you aside if your work product is not up to snuff, just like they gladly tossed your classmates aside when their grades or interview skills or work experience was not enough to merit their further attention. This is pure, 100%, cold-hard business.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:25 am

"pure cold business" and manners/courtesy/cordial-ness don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Who would you rather work with? Someone with an attitude of appreciation when you collaborate at work, both needing each other to accomplish a business goal? Or someone who thinks they owe you nothing, not even a simple "thanks" just because you both stood to gain?

That second attitude is why a lot of lawyers are a pain in the ass to work with. Be appreciative, it will make you a lot more friends/happy colleagues once you start working than the entitled approach will.

Does that mean thank you notes will turn a ding into an offer? No, but they might just make someone appreciate the sentiment, review you better, and get you a leg up. Plus it's a good precedent to set.

Having spent a couple years in BigLaw (V10), I promise you the entitled, "its only business" people are at a disadvantage when it comes to assignments from partners and general office relations.

Also worth remembering: the midlevel associates you see a lot of in interviews really don't have much to gain by you gracing them with you potential employment. A large percentage of them will likely be gone before you ever start once they don't make partner. Brutal, but true. Cant hurt to send em a thoughtful few lines telling them you appreciated their time and input about the firm.

My unsolicited two cents, take it fwiw.

luthersloan
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby luthersloan » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:41 am

Not too sound like I am disagreeing with myself, but I agree with you to an extent. I agree it is very important to be appreciative and friendly, even in a business context. I just think that thanking someone, via written email/letter for doing something which is a part of their job and necessity for the organization for which they work is taking said concern and appreciate to an unhelpful, or at least unnecessary level. For example, I would completely agree that I would be less likely to hire someone who did not end an interview with an "it was nice to meet you" or some other example of courtesy or manners, but sending a thank you note seems a bit much. I mean, I would expect someone to end any business meeting or transaction with simple pleasantries, but I would not expect a person to send me a customized thank you note. I would sort of hope both of us have better things to do.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:42 am

Didn't read any of this shit. I swore I'd never comment on this topic again, but here I am...

Thank You cards are unnecessary. In real life, thank you cards are reserved for situations where some genuinely affects your day/life or does something else that is deserving of thanks. Thank You cards sent just as a reflexive response to a call back aren't very genuine. Be genuine, be tactful, be courteous, but don't cheapen and make banal things that you don't need to.

That said, it probably won't hurt you unless you shit the bed and fuck it up. It probably won't help you either. Send em if you want, but you don't HAVE to do it.

Now I am officially done commenting on this topic.

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Grizz
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Grizz » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:40 am

What is TLS's unwarranted infatuation with thank-you notes this year.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:49 am

Who could ever imagine that saying thank you could be considered risky or unnecessary. No wonder everyone hates lawyers.

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Bronte
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Bronte » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:Who could ever imagine that saying thank you could be considered risky or unnecessary. No wonder everyone hates lawyers.


People from all walks of life hate trivial formalities.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:31 am

UT1502 wrote:Fact: everywhere I wrote thank-you letters to, I got dinged, and everywhere I didn't, I got a callback. Also, I didn't write thank-you letters for my first callback and got an offer.

THEY ARE POISON


My law review pre-OCI panel included partners that recruit on campus from S&C, Cravath, Cleary, Weil, and Debevoise. After being asked where to write thank you's for screener interviews, all answered UNANIMOUSLY - DO NOT SEND THANK YOU'S AFTER A SCREENER.

And for callbacks, do not send one 30 minutes after your interview. I was in an interview at a V10 where the partner I'm with gets an email, looks up at me, and says, "Is she kidding? I just got an interview from someone who I don't even think has left the building yet."
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

luthersloan
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby luthersloan » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:34 am

The ironic thing is that it would almost have to be that fast at most NY firms since the interviewer just shoots off an email to the hiring partner/recruiting person after you leave with their impressions. Or it would have to be addressed to one of those two. Unless you think the interviewer is going to send a second email, just to say how happy they are to have gotten a thank you note.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:56 am

UT1502 wrote:Fact: everywhere I wrote thank-you letters to, I got dinged, and everywhere I didn't, I got a callback. Also, I didn't write thank-you letters for my first callback and got an offer.

THEY ARE POISON


everywhere I wrote thank you's i got offers, everywhere i didn't i got rejected. but....i only wrote the thank you's because the interviews were great and really solidified my love for that firm.

other firms i didn't send thank you's to, i just really didn't care for them.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:02 pm

I've always written thank-you letters and I've gotten some dings but a lot of offers. It could be that your thank-you letters are...not good. Or that your interview wasn't stellar. Sorry if that sounds mean, but those are alternative possibilities.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've always written thank-you letters and I've gotten some dings but a lot of offers. It could be that your thank-you letters are...not good. Or that your interview wasn't stellar. Sorry if that sounds mean, but those are alternative possibilities.

Definitely TITCR. I seriously doubt a thank you letter sunk you. And to attribute the lack of a thank you letter to your offers is just nonsensical.

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smokyroom26
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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby smokyroom26 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:23 pm

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THANK YOU LETTERS ARE POLITE. They will not sink your offer. They will not get you an offer. THEY ARE JUST POLITE AND A NICE THING TO DO.

The end. Please, god, let it be the end.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:57 am

I've noticed this too.

my only explanation is that the genuine enthusiasm which induces us to write thank you letters is seen by firms as being "weakness" or "desperation." Maybe because so many people don't have it for most firms, so it's truly unsettling to them. Perhaps it's the date you go out with who just comes on too strong and interested.

I'm pissed because I only did it for my top choice (btw not top by ranking at all!) and got shot down. :x :x

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've noticed this too.

my only explanation is that the genuine enthusiasm which induces us to write thank you letters is seen by firms as being "weakness" or "desperation." Maybe because so many people don't have it for most firms, so it's truly unsettling to them. Perhaps it's the date you go out with who just comes on too strong and interested.

I'm pissed because I only did it for my top choice (btw not top by ranking at all!) and got shot down. :x :x


yeah i'm convinced that TY notes are a waste of time, for the most part. i started out sending TYs to all my CB interviewers, was encouraged when all the attorneys wrote back, only to be rejected a week later. like people have said, they're not going to make or break you. if you want to send them, keep them short and simple and don't overdo it. i think the poster above is right that over-enthusiastic TYs probably come off as a bit desperate.

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Re: Fact about thank-you letters

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:11 pm

smokyroom26 wrote:FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THANK YOU LETTERS ARE POLITE. They will not sink your offer. They will not get you an offer. THEY ARE JUST POLITE AND A NICE THING TO DO.

The end. Please, god, let it be the end.


Could not agree more ...




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