Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

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071816
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby 071816 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:07 am

anon168 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.



Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.

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sambeber
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby sambeber » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:12 am

anon168 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.



Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.


The irony is rich.

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thesealocust
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:14 am

anon168 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.



Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.


. . .

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:14 am

anon168 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.



Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.


(sealocust can be a bit sarcastic at times)

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sunynp
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby sunynp » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:17 am

vanwinkle wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote:
kahechsof wrote:It is pretty dumb to care about grades once you've been there for 10 weeks and they know what your work looks like.


I disagree. Consistency of work product is a big deal, and ten weeks is not a long enough time to see if someone will produce well for years on end.

Ten weeks + two semesters of 1L grades is plenty enough. You shouldn't need more than that, and many firms don't.


Agree. Some people may be surprised at how quickly the good people are identified. The down side of that is having a bad first assignment can really hurt you even if you do great work the rest of the summer.

10 weeks is more than enough time to evaluate someone's work and fit with your office. For people who split firms, 6 weeks is more than enough.

Also firms want to know that you can do the work now, quickly and error-free. They aren't trying to decide if you will be great for the next 6 years. A relatively small percentage of the original class is going to be there after even the few years.

rad lulz
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby rad lulz » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:20 am

thesealocust wrote:Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.

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EvilClinton
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby EvilClinton » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:31 am

anon168 wrote:Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.

Whoosh

anon168
Posts: 920
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby anon168 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:55 am

EvilClinton wrote:
anon168 wrote:Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.

Whoosh


Indeed. Complete brain fart on my part. It's obviously past my bedtime. Time to go home.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:34 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
anon168 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.



Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.


(sealocust can be a bit sarcastic at times)


Among other things.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273147
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone with any insight about this with respect to Kirkland?


Kirkland is like most firms in this regard. They ask for permission to request your grades at the beginning of the summer, but they give near 100% offers to hundreds of summers.




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