V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

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V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:41 pm

Would love any input on this decision. My goal is to do my time and then move on, hopefully into a VAP and then academia. Here is my thought process so far.

WLRK/Cravath/S&C: Would be excellent for the experience and exit options . I am not the biggest fan of NYC, but I think for the firm it would be worth it.

Boies (Litigation, NYC): Killer lit work. $175k starting but I'm not sure how they bonus. No idea on the exit options. What happens if David Boies passes in the next couple of years?

Kirkland Chicago: The most sense for the short-term goal of paying down my loans (I think). Lower COL in Chicago, have family ties, and if I really dedicate myself to grinding it out then the bonus being tied to billables helps.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:55 pm

1) Do you have all of these offers on the table?

2) You clearly are not gun-ho lit or corporate. You may want to strike Boies if that is the case, given that their corporate dept is not competitive with the others firms you are considering. Many, many summer associates enter wanting lit and leave never wanting to do lit ever again.

3) Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C are not the same. I don't know about Wachtell, but Cravath wants you to know lit v. corporate at the beginning of the summer. They put you into a pod right away. It's not really a great place for people wanting to try different things. S&C is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Your summer is free for you to try different practice areas, and even after you start, you can be a corporate generalist or a lit generalist. You only develop specialties later.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:55 pm

If V3 = WLRK, then go there.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1) Do you have all of these offers on the table?

2) You clearly are not gun-ho lit or corporate. You may want to strike Boies if that is the case, given that their corporate dept is not competitive with the others firms you are considering. Many, many summer associates enter wanting lit and leave never wanting to do lit ever again.

3) Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C are not the same. I don't know about Wachtell, but Cravath wants you to know lit v. corporate at the beginning of the summer. They put you into a pod right away. It's not really a great place for people wanting to try different things. S&C is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Your summer is free for you to try different practice areas, and even after you start, you can be a corporate generalist or a lit generalist. You only develop specialties later.


OP Here - In response to 1...Almost, assuming one of them for the sake of starting to collect information.

I had a 1L SA and received a fair amount of exposure to both transactional and lit work. You are correct that I am not gun-ho for either. Honestly, different aspects of each side appeal to me. Is the fear that the death of David Boies equals the death of Boies Schiller misplaced?

If we say the end goal is to have the most appealing exit options while balancing paying down over 130k in debt as quickly as possible, which might be the best? Also will be trying for a COA clerkship, if that alters the advice at all.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:18 pm

I'd probably go Wachtell then.

Although I personally would not pick a firm based exclusively on exit options, given that your exit options will be great at any of those firms and the decrease in quality of life is quite serious.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:23 pm

did boies callback. Bonus is calculated based on a formula. Roughly 2200 = 60k to 70k bonus and 2600 = +100k bonus.

my memory, however, may not be exact. seems like you can make a killing there tho

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:did boies callback. Bonus is calculated based on a formula. Roughly 2200 = 60k to 70k bonus and 2600 = +100k bonus.

my memory, however, may not be exact. seems like you can make a killing there tho

Not OP, but have a CB with Boies. Thoughts? Advice?

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:did boies callback. Bonus is calculated based on a formula. Roughly 2200 = 60k to 70k bonus and 2600 = +100k bonus.

my memory, however, may not be exact. seems like you can make a killing there tho

Not OP, but have a CB with Boies. Thoughts? Advice?


I'm not too sure...the callback was unlike any other callback i had in that they didn't seem to be really evaluating me. The impression that I left with is that their decision will be completely determined by resume and transcript. None of the interviewers seemed prepared to interview me (i.e. haven't read resume, one didn't even have my resume) and they just didn't seem engaged at all. Overall, quite a weird experience.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:39 pm

I am going to go against the flow here and say you should go to Kirkland. It's almost (if not actually) on par with the other firms in both corporate and lit. It sounds like a better personal fit, being in Chicago.

Plus, most of the reasons for choosing WLRK (or Cravath, or S&C) aren't there. You're not trying to get rich (sure, you can pay off loans marginally faster at WLRK, but it's going to be a difference of a year at most). And you're not trying to lateral in-house or to a law firm. VAPs (and academia) largely don't care if you were at WLRK or a marginally less "prestigious" firm (in fact, there are several firms lower in the rankings that have a more established track record of having people go to academia). What they care about is whether you have academic/publishing potential. Ideally, you're going to want to publish, or at least write some practice-oriented pieces while at your firm to give you a leg up in the transition to academia. I can guarantee you will not have the time to do that at WLRK. Kirkland will be busy, sure, but there's at least some possibility you will find the time.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:42 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:I am going to go against the flow here and say you should go to Kirkland. It's almost (if not actually) on par with the other firms in both corporate and lit. It sounds like a better personal fit, being in Chicago.

Plus, most of the reasons for choosing WLRK (or Cravath, or S&C) aren't there. You're not trying to get rich (sure, you can pay off loans marginally faster at WLRK, but it's going to be a difference of a year at most). And you're not trying to lateral in-house or to a law firm. VAPs (and academia) largely don't care if you were at WLRK or a marginally less "prestigious" firm (in fact, there are several firms lower in the rankings that have a more established track record of having people go to academia). What they care about is whether you have academic/publishing potential. Ideally, you're going to want to publish, or at least write some practice-oriented pieces while at your firm to give you a leg up in the transition to academia. I can guarantee you will not have the time to do that at WLRK. Kirkland will be busy, sure, but there's at least some possibility you will find the time.

OP here - Thank you. I really appreciate the input. Changing the original question a little bit - What if academia wasn't my end goal? Maybe in-house somewhere or another industry, but not to another firm?

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:22 pm

I chose Kirkland and canceled callbacks at all the V5 except Wachtell (where I didn't have a cb). It would be my first time living in either Chicago or New York. I chose Kirkland in part because of their national dominance in a particular practice area and in part because I have a personal reason to want to be in Chicago, but one thing to consider is that the quality of life is reputedly a lot better in Chicago.

It's substantially cheaper. (Most cost of living calculator's put it at well over 30% increase in cost of living moving from Chicago to New York. Basically, you'll make substantially more money working at Kirkland Chicago than you would at any of the other firms on your list.) It's also more spacious and less crowded, cleaner, and newer. Of course, New York is the country's commercial and cultural center. Although Kirkland Chicago does a lot of New York work (maybe mainly New York work, depending on the practice area), there are reasons to want to be in the heart of it.

Based on these firms, I would really be thinking about which city you want to live in. All of these firms would probably fly you back out to give it another look. Might wanna narrow it down to Kirkland and Wachtell and then do that.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:35 pm

OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


Regardless. (Above poster.)

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


WLRK versus Kirkland and S&C/Cravath versus Kirkland are two completely different options, especially if you care about how quickly you can pay down your loans. This year's bonuses were low, and still started at 45% of base salary. In 3 years at Wachtell, you could easily bank $150k more than at the other firms.

If your goal is academia, I'd honestly suggest you go somewhere like Debevoise or Cleary where you can hide out for a couple of years while billing the minimum and having time to publish. Cravath would be be a bad choice because you're assigned to a few partners who you can't hide from, while Kirkland would be a bad choice because they push out people billing the minimum starting earlier than the other firms do.

If WLRK isn't an option, and if you want to set yourself up for in-house at an F500 while paying down your loans, and like Chicago, you're not losing anything by going to Kirkland over S&C or Cravath. Kirkland does a lot of mid-market corporate work, which means you can develop relationships with companies you could potentially go in-house at. If you want to go in-house at a bank, Cravath or S&C might be worth considering.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:03 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


WLRK versus Kirkland and S&C/Cravath versus Kirkland are two completely different options, especially if you care about how quickly you can pay down your loans. This year's bonuses were low, and still started at 45% of base salary. In 3 years at Wachtell, you could easily bank $150k more than at the other firms.

If your goal is academia, I'd honestly suggest you go somewhere like Debevoise or Cleary where you can hide out for a couple of years while billing the minimum and having time to publish. Cravath would be be a bad choice because you're assigned to a few partners who you can't hide from, while Kirkland would be a bad choice because they push out people billing the minimum starting earlier than the other firms do.

If WLRK isn't an option, and if you want to set yourself up for in-house at an F500 while paying down your loans, and like Chicago, you're not losing anything by going to Kirkland over S&C or Cravath. Kirkland does a lot of mid-market corporate work, which means you can develop relationships with companies you could potentially go in-house at. If you want to go in-house at a bank, Cravath or S&C might be worth considering.


OP here - What is your thought on Boies?

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


WLRK versus Kirkland and S&C/Cravath versus Kirkland are two completely different options, especially if you care about how quickly you can pay down your loans. This year's bonuses were low, and still started at 45% of base salary. In 3 years at Wachtell, you could easily bank $150k more than at the other firms.

If your goal is academia, I'd honestly suggest you go somewhere like Debevoise or Cleary where you can hide out for a couple of years while billing the minimum and having time to publish. Cravath would be be a bad choice because you're assigned to a few partners who you can't hide from, while Kirkland would be a bad choice because they push out people billing the minimum starting earlier than the other firms do.

If WLRK isn't an option, and if you want to set yourself up for in-house at an F500 while paying down your loans, and like Chicago, you're not losing anything by going to Kirkland over S&C or Cravath. Kirkland does a lot of mid-market corporate work, which means you can develop relationships with companies you could potentially go in-house at. If you want to go in-house at a bank, Cravath or S&C might be worth considering.


OP here - What is your thought on Boies?


Risky. They plan on no-offering 15%+ of their summer class. How secure do you feel about getting a clerkship to hedge against that? They paid some fat bonuses this year, but you will be working WLRK hours. If in-house is the goal, litigation isn't a great option to begin with.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:26 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


WLRK versus Kirkland and S&C/Cravath versus Kirkland are two completely different options, especially if you care about how quickly you can pay down your loans. This year's bonuses were low, and still started at 45% of base salary. In 3 years at Wachtell, you could easily bank $150k more than at the other firms.

If your goal is academia, I'd honestly suggest you go somewhere like Debevoise or Cleary where you can hide out for a couple of years while billing the minimum and having time to publish. Cravath would be be a bad choice because you're assigned to a few partners who you can't hide from, while Kirkland would be a bad choice because they push out people billing the minimum starting earlier than the other firms do.

If WLRK isn't an option, and if you want to set yourself up for in-house at an F500 while paying down your loans, and like Chicago, you're not losing anything by going to Kirkland over S&C or Cravath. Kirkland does a lot of mid-market corporate work, which means you can develop relationships with companies you could potentially go in-house at. If you want to go in-house at a bank, Cravath or S&C might be worth considering.


Does DPW provide a similar opportunity? Or will you work more at DPW vs. Cleary?

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Renzo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:35 pm

Rayiner wins this thread. Do what he says.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does DPW provide a similar opportunity? Or will you work more at DPW vs. Cleary?


The average associate probably works the same amount at all of these firms (- WLRK). DPW has a centralized assignment system, so someone will be looking to see what's on your plate and staffing you on cases if you're light. Cleary is free market, which let's you control your own load to a greater extent.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:55 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


WLRK versus Kirkland and S&C/Cravath versus Kirkland are two completely different options, especially if you care about how quickly you can pay down your loans. This year's bonuses were low, and still started at 45% of base salary. In 3 years at Wachtell, you could easily bank $150k more than at the other firms.

If your goal is academia, I'd honestly suggest you go somewhere like Debevoise or Cleary where you can hide out for a couple of years while billing the minimum and having time to publish. Cravath would be be a bad choice because you're assigned to a few partners who you can't hide from, while Kirkland would be a bad choice because they push out people billing the minimum starting earlier than the other firms do.

If WLRK isn't an option, and if you want to set yourself up for in-house at an F500 while paying down your loans, and like Chicago, you're not losing anything by going to Kirkland over S&C or Cravath. Kirkland does a lot of mid-market corporate work, which means you can develop relationships with companies you could potentially go in-house at. If you want to go in-house at a bank, Cravath or S&C might be worth considering.


OP here - What is your thought on Boies?


Risky. They plan on no-offering 15%+ of their summer class. How secure do you feel about getting a clerkship to hedge against that? They paid some fat bonuses this year, but you will be working WLRK hours. If in-house is the goal, litigation isn't a great option to begin with.


Tough to know given my education background. Are they pretty open about this 85% offer rate?

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OP here - What is your thought on Boies?


Risky. They plan on no-offering 15%+ of their summer class. How secure do you feel about getting a clerkship to hedge against that? They paid some fat bonuses this year, but you will be working WLRK hours. If in-house is the goal, litigation isn't a great option to begin with.[/quote]

Tough to know given my education background. Are they pretty open about this 85% offer rate?[/quote]

shameless bump

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby monkey85 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:45 pm

Renzo wrote:Rayiner wins this thread. Do what he says.


Rayiner generally wins threads. ha ha.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:The average associate probably works the same amount at all of these firms (- WLRK). DPW has a centralized assignment system, so someone will be looking to see what's on your plate and staffing you on cases if you're light. Cleary is free market, which let's you control your own load to a greater extent.


That's an illusory difference. (I'm a second-year associate.) While there are definitely advantages and drawbacks to both assignment systems, I don't think you can control your workload very much in either system, because the amount of work a case or deal involves is generally not clear at the time of assignment. You might take a case from the coordinator because you aren't very busy -- or you might look for work in the free-market system because you aren't very busy -- and the next thing you know some old case you haven't been working on in weeks comes back to life and a client on a quiet case on the back burner wants something urgent.

In a free-market system you have a little more say about who you want to work with and a coordinated system provides a little more security against falling through the cracks, but neither system has it over the other in terms of workload balancing. In practice, in both systems, you manage your workload as you go -- by volunteering to do more on a particular project when you've got little else to do and by asking a team member to cover for you when you're swamped with other things.

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:55 am

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP Here - Just to clarify. I did not say it was Wachtell for certain. One of the 3 I listed.


WLRK versus Kirkland and S&C/Cravath versus Kirkland are two completely different options, especially if you care about how quickly you can pay down your loans. This year's bonuses were low, and still started at 45% of base salary. In 3 years at Wachtell, you could easily bank $150k more than at the other firms.

If your goal is academia, I'd honestly suggest you go somewhere like Debevoise or Cleary where you can hide out for a couple of years while billing the minimum and having time to publish. Cravath would be be a bad choice because you're assigned to a few partners who you can't hide from, while Kirkland would be a bad choice because they push out people billing the minimum starting earlier than the other firms do.

If WLRK isn't an option, and if you want to set yourself up for in-house at an F500 while paying down your loans, and like Chicago, you're not losing anything by going to Kirkland over S&C or Cravath. Kirkland does a lot of mid-market corporate work, which means you can develop relationships with companies you could potentially go in-house at. If you want to go in-house at a bank, Cravath or S&C might be worth considering.


OP here - What is your thought on Boies?


Risky. They plan on no-offering 15%+ of their summer class. How secure do you feel about getting a clerkship to hedge against that? They paid some fat bonuses this year, but you will be working WLRK hours. If in-house is the goal, litigation isn't a great option to begin with.

Rayiner:

What are your thoughts on exit options for S&C and Kirkland NY?

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Re: V3 Corporate vs. Boies vs. Kirkland (Chicago)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:23 am

bump




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