faegre or dorsey (mn)? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lit specifically.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't heard particularly good things about either firm, honestly. I guess D&W might be the lesser of two evils.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't heard particularly good things about either firm, honestly. I guess D&W might be the lesser of two evils.

go on.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't heard particularly good things about either firm, honestly. I guess D&W might be the lesser of two evils.

go on.

That's pretty much it. Faegre is regarded around the Midwest as one of the worst places for associates to work, at least at the main office. You can probably run a search on these forums for more info on that.

Summer at either place would be fine, I'm sure.

[bjsesq]

I haven't heard particularly good things about either firm, honestly. I guess D&W might be the lesser of two evils.

go on.

That's pretty much it. Faegre is regarded around the Midwest as one of the worst places for associates to work, at least at the main office. You can probably run a search on these forums for more info on that.

Summer at either place would be fine, I'm sure.

Also, be afraid of possible mergers.

[Anonymous User]

Have offers started to go out for either firm? Or post-CB dings?
And where is the merger chatter coming from?

[Anonymous User]

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... enson.html

My 10 cents (as soon-to-be-attorney at another large firm in Minneapolis), any talk about associates at Faegre being treated poorly is a load of BS. The firm took a hit in 2008, but by all accounts seems to be doing very well. I know partners and associates from both, and much prefer the ones from Faegre.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't heard particularly good things about either firm, honestly. I guess D&W might be the lesser of two evils.

go on.

That's pretty much it. Faegre is regarded around the Midwest as one of the worst places for associates to work, at least at the main office. You can probably run a search on these forums for more info on that.

Summer at either place would be fine, I'm sure.

Also, be afraid of possible mergers.

Faegre is almost certainly merging soon, likely within a year, according to a good friend who recently joined the partnership. I will say that s/he has been very happy at the firm and the work s/he has received, but is almost sure that a merger is happening and that it's not in the best interest of 90% of those at the firm.

[bjsesq]

Faegre is almost certainly merging soon, likely within a year, according to a good friend who recently joined the partnership. I will say that s/he has been very happy at the firm and the work s/he has received, but is almost sure that a merger is happening and that it's not in the best interest of 90% of those at the firm.

They frequently are bad news bears. The thing is, often times they are an attempt to stem the tide of shittiness already ongoing. Either way, I would take a good number of firms in the twin cities over Faegre for this and some of the complaints I've heard regarding associate life. Note to fella white knighting the firm: I am not saying these complaints are 100% accurate in all cases or a fair portrayal of what my life would be like. I guess I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Anonymous User]

The two firms are basically interchangeable. I have heard that lit work is very hard for young associates to come by at Dorsey.

[Anonymous User]

Faegre is almost certainly merging soon, likely within a year, according to a good friend who recently joined the partnership. I will say that s/he has been very happy at the firm and the work s/he has received, but is almost sure that a merger is happening and that it's not in the best interest of 90% of those at the firm.

curious about what you mean about the "not in the best interest of 90% of those at the firm." i have my callback there shortly, and from the people i talked to at my screening interview to what i read about the merger before hand i can't think immediately of what the issue would be. baker and faegre have no same market offices, so it would be difficult to imagine layoffs being necessary, plus it would mean an expansion into two major markets (DC and chicago) for faegre.

i'm not trying to defend faegre or anything, i'm just legitimately curious.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone help me out with this decision? I am also choosing between these two firms.

I'm leaning Dorsey because of the name value and (maybe) better chance of mobility? The thing that worries me is that really low summer offer rate from 2009. I know they probably learned from that mistake, but for some reason, I get the feeling that it could happen again. I've heard of quite a few Dorsey offers going out, and am worried that maybe Dorsey is sending out too many offers.

Only concerns with Faegre is the impending merger. I've been hearing from many people (not within the firm, just out in the street), that its not a good thing. Not sure about the name value for mobility purposes either (for some reason, I keep thinking Dorsey has more name value).

[Anonymous User]

Faegre is becoming a more national firm (because of the merger) and seeks to attract bigger-name clients, which in turn, will give Faegre a bigger national and well-known presence. Could give an associate a leg up on the national scene when/if looking to lateral in a few years.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone help me out with this decision? I am also choosing between these two firms.

I'm leaning Dorsey because of the name value and (maybe) better chance of mobility? The thing that worries me is that really low summer offer rate from 2009. I know they probably learned from that mistake, but for some reason, I get the feeling that it could happen again. I've heard of quite a few Dorsey offers going out, and am worried that maybe Dorsey is sending out too many offers.

Only concerns with Faegre is the impending merger. I've been hearing from many people (not within the firm, just out in the street), that its not a good thing. Not sure about the name value for mobility purposes either (for some reason, I keep thinking Dorsey has more name value).

I have not done my Dorsey callback yet, but I had a Faegre associate straight up tell me (without me asking about the merger) that she felt management was opaque about it and that for someone in my position it was something to seriously consider, because it meant the firm's short and medium term plans were more uncertain and difficult to divine than a firm not merging.

Nevertheless, I want to hear more impressions of Dorsey. Are there any significant cultural differences you or anyone has noticed?

[Anonymous User]

did you get a dorsey offer? going to take it?

[showNprove]

AmLaw Mid-Level Associate Satisfaction survey:

Dorsey - 3.994/5.000 (20th overall)
Faegre - 3.669/5.000 (77th overall)

[Julio_El_Chavo]

AmLaw Mid-Level Associate Satisfaction survey:

Dorsey - 3.994/5.000 (20th overall)
Faegre - 3.669/5.000 (77th overall)

These are highly inaccurate measures of actual associate satisfaction.

[Anonymous User]

did you get a dorsey offer? going to take it?

Yes I got the offer and I am about 85% of the way to accepting. I'm going to talk to a few more associates before I do, but I really liked it there.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't work at either firm but I did work in the cities last summer at another firm. I had the opportunity to talk to associates at both offices and there were no discernible differences between their experiences. They were all relatively pleased with the experience (though what could they possibly compare it to as for most it was their first and only SA experience?). That being said, my firm had a number of lawyers who previously worked with faegre and dorsey and the only complaints that the dorsey attorneys had were with the management (just disagreements with some of the policies in place, nothing related to the work they received or the atmosphere in general). I cannot say the same for the former faegre attorneys. They likened it to working at robins (we also had a number of attorneys from there...like every other office in town who has a mixture of those three firms) where they were "abused puppies" at the end of working there and had to be rehabed in their new firms, is how they phrased it. My take from the faegre attorneys was that verbal abuse was not uncommon and it could be a particularly harsh place to work.

Anyway, of the big 3 in town, it seems that if you want to do lit robins would be the best place to start a career (they work you hard but they put out great work and working as an associate isn't supposed to be a relaxing time period anyway). As far as dorsey v. faegre, I would have to say that my take on the two would make me pick dorsey if I had a choice. Then again, I don't think there is a wrong choice...Maybe just an issue of associate burnout being higher at faegre due to the emotional toll working there can take (you'll work as hard at any of the firms).

Best of luck!

[Anonymous User]

I didn't work at either firm but I did work in the cities last summer at another firm. I had the opportunity to talk to associates at both offices and there were no discernible differences between their experiences. They were all relatively pleased with the experience (though what could they possibly compare it to as for most it was their first and only SA experience?). That being said, my firm had a number of lawyers who previously worked with faegre and dorsey and the only complaints that the dorsey attorneys had were with the management (just disagreements with some of the policies in place, nothing related to the work they received or the atmosphere in general). I cannot say the same for the former faegre attorneys. They likened it to working at robins (we also had a number of attorneys from there...like every other office in town who has a mixture of those three firms) where they were "abused puppies" at the end of working there and had to be rehabed in their new firms, is how they phrased it. My take from the faegre attorneys was that verbal abuse was not uncommon and it could be a particularly harsh place to work.

Anyway, of the big 3 in town, it seems that if you want to do lit robins would be the best place to start a career (they work you hard but they put out great work and working as an associate isn't supposed to be a relaxing time period anyway). As far as dorsey v. faegre, I would have to say that my take on the two would make me pick dorsey if I had a choice. Then again, I don't think there is a wrong choice...Maybe just an issue of associate burnout being higher at faegre due to the emotional toll working there can take (you'll work as hard at any of the firms).

Best of luck!

I worked at Faegre a couple summers ago (when it was real bad), and I'll be going there next year (clerkship). I can tell you that many of these "anecdotal" stories are bull. I know many associates who really do like it at Faegre, and I'm frankly surprised to hear otherwise. It is very well respected in the twin cities, and the culture of the firm is generally good. There are some people I'd rather not work with of course, but by in large, it is a very good place to work. I chose them over Dorsey, Robins, Fredrickson, Oppenheimer and I in no way regret that decision.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't work at either firm but I did work in the cities last summer at another firm. I had the opportunity to talk to associates at both offices and there were no discernible differences between their experiences. They were all relatively pleased with the experience (though what could they possibly compare it to as for most it was their first and only SA experience?). That being said, my firm had a number of lawyers who previously worked with faegre and dorsey and the only complaints that the dorsey attorneys had were with the management (just disagreements with some of the policies in place, nothing related to the work they received or the atmosphere in general). I cannot say the same for the former faegre attorneys. They likened it to working at robins (we also had a number of attorneys from there...like every other office in town who has a mixture of those three firms) where they were "abused puppies" at the end of working there and had to be rehabed in their new firms, is how they phrased it. My take from the faegre attorneys was that verbal abuse was not uncommon and it could be a particularly harsh place to work.

Anyway, of the big 3 in town, it seems that if you want to do lit robins would be the best place to start a career (they work you hard but they put out great work and working as an associate isn't supposed to be a relaxing time period anyway). As far as dorsey v. faegre, I would have to say that my take on the two would make me pick dorsey if I had a choice. Then again, I don't think there is a wrong choice...Maybe just an issue of associate burnout being higher at faegre due to the emotional toll working there can take (you'll work as hard at any of the firms).

Best of luck!

I worked at Faegre a couple summers ago (when it was real bad), and I'll be going there next year (clerkship). I can tell you that many of these "anecdotal" stories are bull. I know many associates who really do like it at Faegre, and I'm frankly surprised to hear otherwise. It is very well respected in the twin cities, and the culture of the firm is generally good. There are some people I'd rather not work with of course, but by in large, it is a very good place to work. I chose them over Dorsey, Robins, Fredrickson, Oppenheimer and I in no way regret that decision.

I think what it comes down to is whether you are still with the firm or not. If you aren't made for working in a big law firm then you will leave a place like faegre and justify it to yourself by saying that x, y, and z made it a terrible (or at least less enjoyable) place to work. If you are still there (or just about to start working there as the above poster), you are going to tell yourself that it isn't a terrible place to work because who in their right mind would go into a position that they think they are going to hate? Especially if they have other options out there.

It's definitely possible that many of the stories shared about how bad faegre can be to work for have no actual basis. Then again, you don't hear the same things over and over again (most times) without there being some truth to it. It's probably not some big conspiracy by dorsey or the other firms to spread rumors and snatch up all the best, freshly minted attorneys. Also, despite what many firms tout as a glimpse into the "real life" of an associate, SA's are not always indicative of what a full time position will entail. I'm glad you had an experience at faegre that is making you return but someone listening to this advice should take notice of the fact that your opinion is not entirely unbiased and likely tainted by the fact that summer programs are more akin to what the firm wants the associate to think work is like...not what it actually is.

[Anonymous User]

former SA/future associate that posted above responding:

I do not disagree with you on any of those counts. You're right, of COURSE I would want to like where I"m headed next year, and certainly SA positions don't always show the true color of the firm.

I will say this though, unlike at many other firms, the SAs work on the floor of their respective practice group. I saw every day the atmosphere and interactions of associates and partners on each floor. There was no show going on. They weren't putting on a face. They had better things to do. I liked what I saw.

In addition to this, I made friends with many associates at the firm-friends who were already working there, and friends who are beyond the firm puffery level. They have no reason to sell Faegre to me--I'm already going there. I talk about their kids and husbands/wives with them. We know each other well. They would tell me if they hate their lives. They work, on average, from 7:30 AM to 6 PM on weekdays. They are paid well, they do good work, and they're pleased with the atmosphere of the firm. This information is far more reliable than any AMLAW associate survey, or anecdotal evidence from third parties at other firms. On another note, I'd emphasize the Faegre used to be well known for having the highest results on the associate surveys. The general consensus in the firm is that few people respond to them, and Faegre does not make an effort to push their associates to rate everything as '5' as many other firms do.

This is purely my opinion, but much of the bad rep that Faegre (and dorsey often times) gets is from those at other, less well-known firms. Everyone loves to pick on the man on top. That sounds incredibly pompous. In fact, that statement IS pompous. It is also (in my opinion) the truth.

[Anonymous User]

There are people in this thread who have yet to start working at one of these firms who are questioning the credibility and motives of those who have actually worked at the firms and have commented on some of the problems.

Think about who really has more credibility. Cognitive dissonance is alive and well with the law student; this is why twice as many people go to law school as there are jobs. And this is why students accept biglaw jobs at firms that treat associates poorly. They just ignore anyone who tries to warn others. Just like students at TTT schools ignore everyone telling them not to go.

I have absolutely never heard anything good about working at Faegre in particular. It is a punchline among lawyers who have lateraled out, including two I know personally. There are good things about working there: pay and exit options. Everything else sucks. If you want those two things badly enough, it still might be a good decision for you. Just know what you're getting yourself into, ok?

Oh, and talking to people who are STILL at the firm probably isn't the best way to get quality information, especially in the absence of good data about attrition rate. That's like asking a military recruiter (who has been in for 12 years and loves his career) about military life, and then taking everything he says about how awesome his job is at face value. Wouldn't you want to listen more to people who DIDN'T like it and hit the door running after 4 years? Think about it.

[Anonymous User]

Fact: Faegre is easily regarded as one of the best two law firms in the twin cities

Fact: Faegre is easily regarded as one of the most reputable firms in the upper midwest

Fact: Faegre took a morale and work environment hit in 2008

Fact: Faegre is trying to improve upon that work environment hit

Fact: Many big law firms have reputations for bad work environment

Fact: Faegre is often cited as one of them. While these allegations are probably overblown, it is worth noting. Considering that SOME people stay and become partner means that it isn't a sinking ship and the firm works for many people. In fact, I expect that the merger with Baker Daniels will make things better, NOT worse.

Fact: Any advice you get from people on staying away from a firm such as Faegre should be taken with a grain of salt because the majority of people on here have not worked there. Your best option is to go to both firms and to see/gauge whether the associates are being honest and forthright with you about working conditions. Associates I know there generally like it. It IS in the same category as Robins Kaplan, Winthrop & Weinstein, and Dorsey, as far as somewhat of a pressurized environment (from what I hear). Nevertheless, it probably isn't nearly as bad as posters are making it out to be. This is my ten cents.