NY Associates: Where to live?

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itbdvorm
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby itbdvorm » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:What's the rationale for Westchester other than not the city? Are you planning to have kids soon?

Westchester's nice (especially Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Mamaroneck, Larchmont, Chappequa, parts of White Plains), but gets quiet at night. And there are some not great parts (parts of New Roc, White Plains, Yonkers)


Yeah, we will both be 31 by the time I'm a first-year, we hope to have kids within a couple of years after that, and we also have two dogs that we aren't going to give up and would probably not be as well suited to a high-rise. Access to restaurants and culture are important, but nightlife is probably not as big for us as it will be for the rest of my first-year class. What about Pelham?


Also nice. Worth considering is what you're looking for. Lots of young couples in the soon-to-be having kids mode in Brooklyn; Westchester is somewhat more "we have kids already" (though not exclusively).

If longer commute's an option, some nice places in CT too

keg411
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby keg411 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:45 am

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:What's the rationale for Westchester other than not the city? Are you planning to have kids soon?

Westchester's nice (especially Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Mamaroneck, Larchmont, Chappequa, parts of White Plains), but gets quiet at night. And there are some not great parts (parts of New Roc, White Plains, Yonkers)


Yeah, we will both be 31 by the time I'm a first-year, we hope to have kids within a couple of years after that, and we also have two dogs that we aren't going to give up and would probably not be as well suited to a high-rise. Access to restaurants and culture are important, but nightlife is probably not as big for us as it will be for the rest of my first-year class. What about Pelham?


Also nice. Worth considering is what you're looking for. Lots of young couples in the soon-to-be having kids mode in Brooklyn; Westchester is somewhat more "we have kids already" (though not exclusively).

If longer commute's an option, some nice places in CT too


For a longer commute, I'd recommend CT or parts of Bergen County, NJ (although I know you said you're familiar with North Jersey) -- just make sure you're on the train lines (MetroNorth/NJ Transit). But both of those options are more if you're looking to buy a place rather than rent.

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rayiner
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone give me some info on Westchester County? Specifically, is there any location where it might be feasible to rent a duplex/condo/townhome with a little bit of space around and possibly a private entrance instead of a large building, and still be within a reasonable commute to GCT? I would be a short walk to the office from GCT.

Based on my spouse’s salary, we would be working with a total gross income of about $210-220k, and loan freight of ~$165k. Based on the figures I’m coming up with, we should be able to budget up to $4000/month for housing, and still be on pace to pay off the loans in 5 years. Any ideas?


Go to padmapper and look at places on the Metro North Harlem line. Larchmont and Bronxville are nice. Forget about NJ the commute to GCT is a huge pain. Remember living outside NYC city limits will save you and your wife $500/mo in taxes.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:50 am

How do you all feel about Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights?

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GeePee
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby GeePee » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:55 am

Park Slope is probably not the most cost-efficient choice because the prices are pushed up by professionals looking for a more family-oriented neighborhood that's still in Brooklyn. It's also an interesting area, but there are better locations for 20-something first year associates.

Brooklyn Heights is Brooklyn's new frontier of trendy areas. On one hand, all of the high rises are new or recently remodeled. On the other hand, they're pretty damn expensive now. Commute isn't bad from most places since there's red, blue, and green line access and, when the weather's nice, you can walk to financial district firms if you'd like. The neighborhood is also in an interesting transitional state because it's not fully gentrified and there are still lots of remnants of the older days, but who knows how the landscape will look in a couple of years.

Anonymous User
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:14 am

Where should someone working on the grand central block live? How does having no debt change the how much to spend on rent/where to live calculus?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:44 am

GeePee wrote:Brooklyn Heights is Brooklyn's new frontier of trendy areas. On one hand, all of the high rises are new or recently remodeled. On the other hand, they're pretty damn expensive now. Commute isn't bad from most places since there's red, blue, and green line access and, when the weather's nice, you can walk to financial district firms if you'd like. The neighborhood is also in an interesting transitional state because it's not fully gentrified and there are still lots of remnants of the older days, but who knows how the landscape will look in a couple of years.

I think you must be thinking of the wrong neighborhood. Brooklyn Heights is the most established affluent area in the borough and is certainly fully gentrified. It's very convenient to Manhattan, beautiful, and expensive. Not a lot to do. Personally, I would rather go a couple minutes further out and live in Boerum Hill, which gives you access to most of the same subway options but has many more bars and restaurants and feels a lot younger.

My main concern with Park Slope would be the distance; the commute to Midtown can be long.

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GeePee
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby GeePee » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:59 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
GeePee wrote:Brooklyn Heights is Brooklyn's new frontier of trendy areas. On one hand, all of the high rises are new or recently remodeled. On the other hand, they're pretty damn expensive now. Commute isn't bad from most places since there's red, blue, and green line access and, when the weather's nice, you can walk to financial district firms if you'd like. The neighborhood is also in an interesting transitional state because it's not fully gentrified and there are still lots of remnants of the older days, but who knows how the landscape will look in a couple of years.

I think you must be thinking of the wrong neighborhood. Brooklyn Heights is the most established affluent area in the borough and is certainly fully gentrified. It's very convenient to Manhattan, beautiful, and expensive. Not a lot to do. Personally, I would rather go a couple minutes further out and live in Boerum Hill, which gives you access to most of the same subway options but has many more bars and restaurants and feels a lot younger.

My main concern with Park Slope would be the distance; the commute to Midtown can be long.

No, I'm thinking of the right area -- I worked in Brooklyn Heights. The parts of Brooklyn Heights you're thinking of are gentrified, and certainly a lot of the area can be. However, those parts of Brooklyn Heights are often exorbitantly priced and I wouldn't live there. There is a lot of expansion going on to add additional housing slightly further inland. Most people I know still call this Brooklyn Heights, although I guess it's arguable that this area could be Boerum Hill or Downtown Brooklyn, in which case we agree.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:10 am

GeePee wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
GeePee wrote:Brooklyn Heights is Brooklyn's new frontier of trendy areas. On one hand, all of the high rises are new or recently remodeled. On the other hand, they're pretty damn expensive now. Commute isn't bad from most places since there's red, blue, and green line access and, when the weather's nice, you can walk to financial district firms if you'd like. The neighborhood is also in an interesting transitional state because it's not fully gentrified and there are still lots of remnants of the older days, but who knows how the landscape will look in a couple of years.

I think you must be thinking of the wrong neighborhood. Brooklyn Heights is the most established affluent area in the borough and is certainly fully gentrified. It's very convenient to Manhattan, beautiful, and expensive. Not a lot to do. Personally, I would rather go a couple minutes further out and live in Boerum Hill, which gives you access to most of the same subway options but has many more bars and restaurants and feels a lot younger.

My main concern with Park Slope would be the distance; the commute to Midtown can be long.

No, I'm thinking of the right area -- I worked in Brooklyn Heights. The parts of Brooklyn Heights you're thinking of are gentrified, and certainly a lot of the area can be. However, those parts of Brooklyn Heights are often exorbitantly priced and I wouldn't live there. There is a lot of expansion going on to add additional housing slightly further inland. Most people I know still call this Brooklyn Heights, although I guess it's arguable that this area could be Boerum Hill or Downtown Brooklyn, in which case we agree.

Ah, that makes sense. What you said definitely is accurate regarding the downtown area. Generally, Court Street is the dividing line, and everything west of it is pretty universally nice, but it's probably true that brokers are referring to the whole downtown area as "Brooklyn Heights" now.

imchuckbass58
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:43 am

Brooklyn Heights proper is bounded by Atlantic, Court, Cadman Plaza/Old Fulton, and the river. South of that is Cobble Hill, East is Downtown Brooklyn, and northeast is DUMBO - not making this up as semantics, it's actually how it's defined by the city, and the entire neighborhood is landmarked, meaning you can't build new high-rise construction (hence, all the brownstones).

Anonymous User wrote:How do you all feel about Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights?


I grew up in Brooklyn Heights, and spent lots of time in Park Slope, here's my take:

-Park Slope is cheaper than Brooklyn Heights, which is probably equivalently priced to moderately desirable manhattan neighborhoods (UES east of Lex, UWS not on the river or the Park, FiDi, Midtown West, East Village east of 2nd etc. Both are less expensive than prime Manhattan (West Village, Soho, prime areas of the UES and UWS, Flatiron/Gramercy, etc).

-The housing stock in both areas is predominantly brownstones, or low-rise apartment buildings with relatively few units. There tends to be relatively little new construction, so housing tends to have more "character," but also not be as new.

-Both are very "neighborhoody." As in, neighbors know each other, many people are families who have been there for 5+ years, the neighborhoods are generally quieter/less trafficked, etc. Both are definitely a young professionals with kids neighborhood.

-Both have great restaurants, shops, etc. Not as good as some areas of Manhattan, obviously, but more than enough to keep you satisfied and happy in terms of your daily needs. Park Slope has slightly more nightlife than BK Heights, but not much.

-Borough Hall (the 2/3/4/5 stop in BK Heights) is about 20 minutes to GCT or Times Square (including waiting for the train, but not including walking time to/from the subway). Grand Army Plaza (the 2/3 stop in Park Slope) is about 25-30 minutes away. It's slightly faster if you can take the Q.

Personally, I would recommend it if you're slightly older or just want a quieter more neighborhoody vibe. You really can't get a comparable experience in Manhattan. For people who came straight through, however, or who are looking to do the whole "I am young in New York wooooo" thing, it may not be the best choice.

goodolgil
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby goodolgil » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:10 pm

Park Slope definitely has more nightlife than Brooklyn Heights by a lot (almost no nightlife to speak of), but BK Heights is a pretty short walk from the Smith Street, whose vibe is fairly close to the Park Slope scene, but Park Slope has a bit more diversity. Neither neighborhood's nightlife really compares to Williamsburg/LES in terms of busyness or options though.

I would not recommend living off the F line in Park Slope if commuting to the city. Two of the F-line stops (7th Ave and 15th St) are located in some of the nicest areas of the neighborhood, but the commute is very long and very local.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:25 pm

Good overviews. For anyone looking in Brooklyn, I would also add Fort Greene at or near the top of that list. A lot of good restaurants, very good proximity to Manhattan (though you have to look in the southern/western part of the neighborhood to be near trains). It feels to me like the most Manhattan-y/cosmopolitan neighborhood in Brooklyn, aside from Williamsburg, which is a whole other story. Also, anyone looking in Park Slope should have Prospect Heights on their list as well –– parts of the neighborhood near the Bergen Street and Grand Army Plaza 2/3 stops and 7th Ave B/Q are equally convenient, and can be a little cheaper.

Also yes, if you want to be in Park Slope, stay in the northern part near Flatbush Avenue – ideally, within walking distance of Atlantic/Pacific – for subway access. There is also more to do up there; the F train stops are in more peaceful/pretty areas but they are also a little duller. I would say that 4th/5th Avenue in Park Slope is actually pretty decent for nightlife. Lots of bars, good restaurants, and even a couple of medium-sized music venues over that way (Southpaw and Littlefield).

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rayiner
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:00 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Good overviews. For anyone looking in Brooklyn, I would also add Fort Greene at or near the top of that list. A lot of good restaurants, very good proximity to Manhattan (though you have to look in the southern/western part of the neighborhood to be near trains). It feels to me like the most Manhattan-y/cosmopolitan neighborhood in Brooklyn, aside from Williamsburg, which is a whole other story. Also, anyone looking in Park Slope should have Prospect Heights on their list as well –– parts of the neighborhood near the Bergen Street and Grand Army Plaza 2/3 stops and 7th Ave B/Q are equally convenient, and can be a little cheaper.

Also yes, if you want to be in Park Slope, stay in the northern part near Flatbush Avenue – ideally, within walking distance of Atlantic/Pacific – for subway access. There is also more to do up there; the F train stops are in more peaceful/pretty areas but they are also a little duller. I would say that 4th/5th Avenue in Park Slope is actually pretty decent for nightlife. Lots of bars, good restaurants, and even a couple of medium-sized music venues over that way (Southpaw and Littlefield).


Relevant ITT: http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/33 ... debar.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/nyreg ... wanus.html

Renzo
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Renzo » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:16 pm

rayiner wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Good overviews. For anyone looking in Brooklyn, I would also add Fort Greene at or near the top of that list. A lot of good restaurants, very good proximity to Manhattan (though you have to look in the southern/western part of the neighborhood to be near trains). It feels to me like the most Manhattan-y/cosmopolitan neighborhood in Brooklyn, aside from Williamsburg, which is a whole other story. Also, anyone looking in Park Slope should have Prospect Heights on their list as well –– parts of the neighborhood near the Bergen Street and Grand Army Plaza 2/3 stops and 7th Ave B/Q are equally convenient, and can be a little cheaper.

Also yes, if you want to be in Park Slope, stay in the northern part near Flatbush Avenue – ideally, within walking distance of Atlantic/Pacific – for subway access. There is also more to do up there; the F train stops are in more peaceful/pretty areas but they are also a little duller. I would say that 4th/5th Avenue in Park Slope is actually pretty decent for nightlife. Lots of bars, good restaurants, and even a couple of medium-sized music venues over that way (Southpaw and Littlefield).


Relevant ITT: http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/33 ... debar.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/nyreg ... wanus.html

No one is recommending living in Gowanus. Not only is it radioactive, it's a complete ghost town--no food, no retail, no transit, no residents, just warehouses.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:24 pm

rayiner wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Good overviews. For anyone looking in Brooklyn, I would also add Fort Greene at or near the top of that list. A lot of good restaurants, very good proximity to Manhattan (though you have to look in the southern/western part of the neighborhood to be near trains). It feels to me like the most Manhattan-y/cosmopolitan neighborhood in Brooklyn, aside from Williamsburg, which is a whole other story. Also, anyone looking in Park Slope should have Prospect Heights on their list as well –– parts of the neighborhood near the Bergen Street and Grand Army Plaza 2/3 stops and 7th Ave B/Q are equally convenient, and can be a little cheaper.

Also yes, if you want to be in Park Slope, stay in the northern part near Flatbush Avenue – ideally, within walking distance of Atlantic/Pacific – for subway access. There is also more to do up there; the F train stops are in more peaceful/pretty areas but they are also a little duller. I would say that 4th/5th Avenue in Park Slope is actually pretty decent for nightlife. Lots of bars, good restaurants, and even a couple of medium-sized music venues over that way (Southpaw and Littlefield).


Relevant ITT: http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/33 ... debar.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/nyreg ... wanus.html

Sure, worth noting, though a bit alarmist. I don't believe there have ever been health issues linked to Gowanus pollution. It's been a toxic mess for a hundred years or so now, and some of the most expensive real estate in Brooklyn is within a half mile or so. Maybe people are in denial or something but nobody in Brooklyn seems concerned about this.

People are increasingly living down there, though, Renzo – along with a burgeoning commercial area along 3rd Avenue. Maybe it's foolish but, again, nobody seems worried. (Personally, I'd be more bothered by breathing all the fumes from living on a truck route.)

goodolgil
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby goodolgil » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:29 pm

I'm more bothered by the projects there. Same for DUMBO (except that neighborhood sucks in general).

But yeah, it's definitely gentrifying.

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nealric
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby nealric » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:46 pm

keg411 wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:What's the rationale for Westchester other than not the city? Are you planning to have kids soon?

Westchester's nice (especially Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Mamaroneck, Larchmont, Chappequa, parts of White Plains), but gets quiet at night. And there are some not great parts (parts of New Roc, White Plains, Yonkers)


Yeah, we will both be 31 by the time I'm a first-year, we hope to have kids within a couple of years after that, and we also have two dogs that we aren't going to give up and would probably not be as well suited to a high-rise. Access to restaurants and culture are important, but nightlife is probably not as big for us as it will be for the rest of my first-year class. What about Pelham?


Also nice. Worth considering is what you're looking for. Lots of young couples in the soon-to-be having kids mode in Brooklyn; Westchester is somewhat more "we have kids already" (though not exclusively).

If longer commute's an option, some nice places in CT too


For a longer commute, I'd recommend CT or parts of Bergen County, NJ (although I know you said you're familiar with North Jersey) -- just make sure you're on the train lines (MetroNorth/NJ Transit). But both of those options are more if you're looking to buy a place rather than rent.


I think such a commute would be borderline suicidal for most first year associates. Living in CT vs. Living in NYC could be the difference between sleeping at your desk and sleeping in your bed on many nights.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby quakeroats » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:36 am

tag

blsingindisguise
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:21 am

GeePee wrote:Park Slope is probably not the most cost-efficient choice because the prices are pushed up by professionals looking for a more family-oriented neighborhood that's still in Brooklyn. It's also an interesting area, but there are better locations for 20-something first year associates.

Brooklyn Heights is Brooklyn's new frontier of trendy areas. On one hand, all of the high rises are new or recently remodeled. On the other hand, they're pretty damn expensive now. Commute isn't bad from most places since there's red, blue, and green line access and, when the weather's nice, you can walk to financial district firms if you'd like. The neighborhood is also in an interesting transitional state because it's not fully gentrified and there are still lots of remnants of the older days, but who knows how the landscape will look in a couple of years.


Um, I think you're maybe thinking of a different neighborhood. Brooklyn Heights is an old, established and very wealthy neighborhood.

Are realtors calling those dormy new downtown brooklyn high rises "Brooklyn Heights" now? Last time I checked I thought they were calling it "Fort Greene" (also inaccurate but more plausible.)

EDIT: I see this was thoroughly addressed upthread.

EDIT: but man, that's just ridiculous. It's one thing to call parts of Bushwick "East Williamsburg" since they're both basically the same gritty, ugly industrial landscape. But Brooklyn Heights is just TOTALLY different from the area east of Court.
Last edited by blsingindisguise on Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

blsingindisguise
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:28 am

If work is in Midtown, I'd consider nearer Queens areas like Astoria or Long Island City, or if you want more the feeling of a decent suburb (and don't mind a slightly longer commute), Forest Hills. Probably get more for your money than in Brooklyn. Astoria has nice, neighborhoody areas, lots of good food, is pretty safe, and a very short commute to Midtown east.

I wouldn't recommend getting suckered into the new construction around Bedford in Williamsburg. In theory your commute is short -- in practice you'll never be able to get onto the overcrowded trains (which also tend not to run on weekends).

goodolgil
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby goodolgil » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:43 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
GeePee wrote:Park Slope is probably not the most cost-efficient choice because the prices are pushed up by professionals looking for a more family-oriented neighborhood that's still in Brooklyn. It's also an interesting area, but there are better locations for 20-something first year associates.

Brooklyn Heights is Brooklyn's new frontier of trendy areas. On one hand, all of the high rises are new or recently remodeled. On the other hand, they're pretty damn expensive now. Commute isn't bad from most places since there's red, blue, and green line access and, when the weather's nice, you can walk to financial district firms if you'd like. The neighborhood is also in an interesting transitional state because it's not fully gentrified and there are still lots of remnants of the older days, but who knows how the landscape will look in a couple of years.


Um, I think you're maybe thinking of a different neighborhood. Brooklyn Heights is an old, established and very wealthy neighborhood.

Are realtors calling those dormy new downtown brooklyn high rises "Brooklyn Heights" now? Last time I checked I thought they were calling it "Fort Greene" (also inaccurate but more plausible.)

EDIT: I see this was thoroughly addressed upthread.

EDIT: but man, that's just ridiculous. It's one thing to call parts of Bushwick "East Williamsburg" since they're both basically the same gritty, ugly industrial landscape. But Brooklyn Heights is just TOTALLY different from the area east of Court.


Yeah, it's actually jarring how abrupt the change is when Joralemon turns into Fulton st around where Brooklyn Law is.

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Ty Webb
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Ty Webb » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:17 am

The word Gowanus being mentioned in this thread made my skin crawl.

During the last week of my summer, I was walking from Smith Street back to my hotel on the outer-bound of Park Slope (Union/5th). I took a wrong turn, by myself, at 3AM, and walked right through the middle of Gowanus Houses (a fairly notorious housing project in the area). I was drunk and in an obnoxiously colored shirt. I came to find out the next morning that I walked through the heart of another seedy project, too. It wasn't until then, when I Googled "Gowanus Houses," that I found out just what happens at places like this.

Not quite walking through Bed-Stuy alone, but it might as well has been.

This story does highlight something that outsiders need to know about the outer burroughs. While almost all of Manhattan is safe from a crime perspective, Brooklyn and Queens can be very dangerous in spots. Brooklyn is a transitional area where million-dollar brownstones bump up against legitimate projects. I lived in downtown and never felt unsafe, even walking at night. But if you take a couple of wrong turns, you can find yourself in a place that your mom wouldn't want to hear about.

If you're shopping the outer burroughs, it's always best to do some serious homework on the area.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:11 am

So your cautionary tale is that you uneventfully walked through a housing project?

For the most part, there is really little risk associated with being near the projects. Unless you're there to buy drugs or something, nobody is going to bother you. As you point out, Smith Street is a block away from the projects and I would hardly call it a "very dangerous" area. There are also projects all over Manhattan – the LES, East Village, Chelsea, and Upper West Side all have substantial NYCHA developments.

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Ty Webb
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Ty Webb » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:23 am

If you think the projects in Manhattan are remotely similar to Gowanus Houses or a couple of the other seedy Brooklyn projects, then you're way off base.

There's this:
--LinkRemoved--

And this:
http://carrollgardens.patch.com/article ... n-homicide

Those are in a little more than a month span.


Oh yeah - no danger at all for a drunk white dude stumbling his way alone at 3AM. I'm surprised I didn't get invited in for tea.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:34 am

It isn't the greatest idea to do what you did, I just think it's a little silly to say that Brooklyn is "transitional" because there are housing projects near nice neighborhoods, particularly because if your story demonstrates anything, it's that you don't need to be afraid of them. Thousands of yuppies congregate within spitting distance of the Gowanus Houses every weekend night with nary an incident. Whatever less than fantastic things happen in the projects, they tend to stay in the projects.




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