NY Associates: Where to live?

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:42 pm

Any suggestions on inexpensive options for summer associates in Manhattan? I know about the NYU dorms, but they're fairly expensive. Looking for the cheapest similar option. I'd like to say as much money from my Summer Associateship as possible.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Big Shrimpin » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any suggestions on inexpensive options for summer associates in Manhattan? I know about the NYU dorms, but they're fairly expensive. Looking for the cheapest similar option. I'd like to say as much money from my Summer Associateship as possible.


IIRC, you can try "The New School." Not sure if it's cheaper, but it's another option. On Manhattan, I don't think you're going to find anything comparable that's considerably cheaper.

EDIT: when you apply for housing when the apps open up next spring, apply EARLY. I got fcked with NYU last year for not applying early enough (literally, applied within like 48 hours of the app. opening up and got the Heisman).

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:24 pm

Luxury building 1brs won't go for less than 3,300. While that is sickening in and of itself, would you really live in a fucking studio for close to 3k while you're paying 200k+ in loans?


If he's making 160k base salary he'll probably make up to 200k per year. Add in the inevitable investments in stock market, etc..., this guy is going to have a comfortable life as long as he doesn't screw it up, he will always be employed as a lawyer making good money. Loans are just not an issue. Honestly. He can pay them off over 10 years without even noticing it. It'll be like going to dinner one night. And every now and then he can toss a bigger payment on them.

These law school loans aren't crippling to the fortunate people who get the high paying jobs.

EDIT: Also, from my experience, the best apartments are in small apartment buildings (max 8 floors), not the really big "luxury" complexes. They're also usually cheaper, but they're so much better (cleaner, better management, etc...).

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby 5ky » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:32 pm

Eco wrote:
Luxury building 1brs won't go for less than 3,300. While that is sickening in and of itself, would you really live in a fucking studio for close to 3k while you're paying 200k+ in loans?


If he's making 160k base salary he'll probably make up to 200k per year. Add in the inevitable investments in stock market, etc..., this guy is going to have a comfortable life as long as he doesn't screw it up, he will always be employed as a lawyer making good money. Loans are just not an issue. Honestly. He can pay them off over 10 years without even noticing it. It'll be like going to dinner one night. And every now and then he can toss a bigger payment on them.

These law school loans aren't crippling to the fortunate people who get the high paying jobs.

EDIT: Also, from my experience, the best apartments are in small apartment buildings (max 8 floors), not the really big "luxury" complexes. They're also usually cheaper, but they're so much better (cleaner, better management, etc...).


There are so many fallacious assumptions here it's laughable.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby IAFG » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:01 am

Eco wrote:
Luxury building 1brs won't go for less than 3,300. While that is sickening in and of itself, would you really live in a fucking studio for close to 3k while you're paying 200k+ in loans?


If he's making 160k base salary he'll probably make up to 200k per year. Add in the inevitable investments in stock market, etc..., this guy is going to have a comfortable life as long as he doesn't screw it up, he will always be employed as a lawyer making good money. Loans are just not an issue. Honestly. He can pay them off over 10 years without even noticing it. It'll be like going to dinner one night. And every now and then he can toss a bigger payment on them.

These law school loans aren't crippling to the fortunate people who get the high paying jobs.

EDIT: Also, from my experience, the best apartments are in small apartment buildings (max 8 floors), not the really big "luxury" complexes. They're also usually cheaper, but they're so much better (cleaner, better management, etc...).

LTK alt?

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby forza » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:51 am

This pretty adequately sums up this thread:

Image

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rayiner
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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:53 am

Eco wrote:
Luxury building 1brs won't go for less than 3,300. While that is sickening in and of itself, would you really live in a fucking studio for close to 3k while you're paying 200k+ in loans?


If he's making 160k base salary he'll probably make up to 200k per year. Add in the inevitable investments in stock market, etc..., this guy is going to have a comfortable life as long as he doesn't screw it up, he will always be employed as a lawyer making good money. Loans are just not an issue. Honestly. He can pay them off over 10 years without even noticing it. It'll be like going to dinner one night. And every now and then he can toss a bigger payment on them.

These law school loans aren't crippling to the fortunate people who get the high paying jobs.

EDIT: Also, from my experience, the best apartments are in small apartment buildings (max 8 floors), not the really big "luxury" complexes. They're also usually cheaper, but they're so much better (cleaner, better management, etc...).


I know you're joking, but:

1) First year bonus the last couple of years has ranged from $7500 to $15000.
2) The stock market has ceased to exist.
3) $160k in NYC = $8,200 per month after taxes; loan payments add up to $2700+ for full freight.
4) Attrition rate at big NYC firms is almost 20%. Meaning half of people will be out after 3-4 years.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:00 am

^ Hehe.

Btw, nobody is seriously going to pay $2,700 on their loan, at least not in the first year out of law school. At a 10 year payment plan you can pay much, much less than that.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:10 am

Eco wrote:^ Hehe.

Btw, nobody is seriously going to pay $2,700 on their loan, at least not in the first year out of law school. At a 10 year payment plan you can pay much, much less than that.


Full freight at a T14 is over $220k these days. On a 10-year repayment, that comes out to about $2,750/month.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:16 am

Eco wrote:Seriously, if you're making 160k a year you can live in a nice studio or one bedroom in SoHo or something and be very happy with it.


My girlfriend just now: "what kind of TTT third world recent immigrant is going to be impressed by a studio apartment?"

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby uci2013 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:26 am

rayiner wrote:
I know you're joking, but:

1) First year bonus the last couple of years has ranged from $7500 to $15000.
2) The stock market has ceased to exist.
3) $160k in NYC = $8,200 per month after taxes; loan payments add up to $2700+ for full freight.
4) Attrition rate at big NYC firms is almost 20%. Meaning half of people will be out after 3-4 years.


OK, so that is still $5K a month take home. If you spend $3K on rent, you still have $2K a month for all your other expenses. If you can't live on $2K a month for your non-rent expenses, then you really need a lesson in personal budgeting and finance. It is very, very doable. The attrition rate is the bigger concern IMO - there are reasons not to work in NYC, but if you are making $160K a year right out of law school, even in NYC, you really can't explain about trying to get by. Take a step back, look at the world around you, and consider yourself very fortunate.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:47 pm

uci2013 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
I know you're joking, but:

1) First year bonus the last couple of years has ranged from $7500 to $15000.
2) The stock market has ceased to exist.
3) $160k in NYC = $8,200 per month after taxes; loan payments add up to $2700+ for full freight.
4) Attrition rate at big NYC firms is almost 20%. Meaning half of people will be out after 3-4 years.


OK, so that is still $5K a month take home. If you spend $3K on rent, you still have $2K a month for all your other expenses. If you can't live on $2K a month for your non-rent expenses, then you really need a lesson in personal budgeting and finance. It is very, very doable. The attrition rate is the bigger concern IMO - there are reasons not to work in NYC, but if you are making $160K a year right out of law school, even in NYC, you really can't explain about trying to get by. Take a step back, look at the world around you, and consider yourself very fortunate.


I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. I'm saying that Eco is retarded:

Eco wrote:If he's making 160k base salary he'll probably make up to 200k per year. Add in the inevitable investments in stock market, etc... Loans are just not an issue. Honestly. He can pay them off over 10 years without even noticing it.


$2k per month for all of your non-rent expenses is not "pay them off without even noticing." In case of Lathaming you want to have a sizeable amount saved up, and I doubt you'd be able to save more than $1k per month in that situation.

During my SA I had a 4th year give me some very good advice: $3000 is a lot of money for rent. If you have roommates you can find a nice 2 bedroom and cut that down to $2000. That will double the amount you can save every month. After you have some cash saved up, you can move to a $3000/month studio in SoHo to impress the NYU undergrad chicks.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:59 pm

The real answer is to get a significant other so you can split rent.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:07 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:The real answer is to get a significant other so you can split rent.


The real answer is to get married so you can save $500/month in taxes.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby ASM11 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:28 pm

if you don't want to live in one of the most "desired" areas in nyc (ie, W. village, downtown) and you're willing to not live in a luxury building with doorman/elevator (the kind where every apartment looks the same inside) you can do better than 3000 a month for a 1br.

There is a really really high premium for the same size apt in a luxury building v. walk-up, mid-rise. Not all of the non-lux buildings are completely awful, they would just require you to undergo a very thorough housing search and be open to many locations because the broader you look the better the chance of finding something good in the mid-range. They may not have SS appliances but not all of em are roach infested either.

There are some good 1br apts out there that are < 3000K, the problem is they hardly ever go on the market. the other problem is that even when they do they can be hard to find. some (maybe most) of the brokers in this city are dishonest which makes the housing search a nightmare.

The bottom line: don't settle for something until you spend as much time as possible looking, and do a lot of sleuthing (ie, if you can take over someone's lease you might get access to a better apt)

But ya...the housing market in NY is so messed up and the search process can really be a nightmare.

Oh one more thing - for those not starting in the fall of 2012 - if you can afford to be looking for housing in the winter, prices really drop because it's harder to rent and brokers/owners become more desperate. The difference is noticeable. But the selection is smaller.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:20 pm

$2k per month for all of your non-rent expenses is not "pay them off without even noticing." In case of Lathaming you want to have a sizeable amount saved up, and I doubt you'd be able to save more than $1k per month in that situation.

During my SA I had a 4th year give me some very good advice: $3000 is a lot of money for rent. If you have roommates you can find a nice 2 bedroom and cut that down to $2000. That will double the amount you can save every month. After you have some cash saved up, you can move to a $3000/month studio in SoHo to impress the NYU undergrad chicks.


You're busting your ass to get a 160k/yr job so you can live with roommates etc...? You obviously don't know anyone with a job like that. I have a friend who works for a big firm in D.C. Has his own apartment in Gtown with his wife, who does not work. Drives a great car. Pays his loans. Is happy.

You don't have to pay 2k a month on your loans. Isn't that such a big surprise!!!!!!!

Seriously get a grip on yourself. If you think you'll be happy living in a shitty little studio just so you can save more per month, you're wrong. You're also making that money so you can spend it and enjoy your life. Especially at that young age!

My advice for OP is to get a great apartment in a nice area. Good investment. A single guy with a great/prestigious job living in a great apartment= will get laid all the time.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby paratactical » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:22 pm

Eco - is your dad a super rich lawyer in New Jersey?

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:24 pm

By the way I posted that fully aware that people on TLS are literally insane. Go ahead and bash me for telling someone to enjoy life and live it up now that he has a great salary. You guys want him to spend his young adult years paying 2k a month on a loan and living in a studio, or alternatively, with "roommates." Then when he's 50, he can finally buy that nice car and be happy! Ridiculous, lol.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:27 pm

Eco wrote:
$2k per month for all of your non-rent expenses is not "pay them off without even noticing." In case of Lathaming you want to have a sizeable amount saved up, and I doubt you'd be able to save more than $1k per month in that situation.

During my SA I had a 4th year give me some very good advice: $3000 is a lot of money for rent. If you have roommates you can find a nice 2 bedroom and cut that down to $2000. That will double the amount you can save every month. After you have some cash saved up, you can move to a $3000/month studio in SoHo to impress the NYU undergrad chicks.


You don't have to pay 2k a month on your loans. Isn't that such a big surprise!!!!!!!

Seriously get a grip on yourself. If you think you'll be happy living in a shitty little studio just so you can save more per month, you're wrong. You're also making that money so you can spend it and enjoy your life. Especially at that young age!

My advice for OP is to get a great apartment in a nice area. Good investment. A single guy with a great/prestigious job living in a great apartment= will get laid all the time.


Eco lives in an alternate reality where:

1) Payments on a 10-year repayment on $220k of debt aren't nearly $3k/month.
2) Where a single guy straight out of school can buy a great apartment in a nice area as an investment.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:29 pm

Eco lives in an alternate reality where:

1) Payments on a 10-year repayment on $220k of debt aren't nearly $3k/month.
2) Where a single guy straight out of school can buy a great apartment in a nice area as an investment.


1) He doesn't have to go for a 10-year repayment plan. But even if he's paying $2k a month, he'll still have enough left over to have a nice apartment, and enjoy his life. And save some too.

2) Rent. Not buy. Yes, a single guy making $160,000 a year can rent a nice one-bedroom apartment in a decent area in New York City.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:33 pm

Eco wrote:
Eco lives in an alternate reality where:

1) Payments on a 10-year repayment on $220k of debt aren't nearly $3k/month.
2) Where a single guy straight out of school can buy a great apartment in a nice area as an investment.


1) He doesn't have to go for a 10-year repayment plan. But even if he's paying $2k a month, he'll still have enough left over to have a nice apartment, and enjoy his life. And save some too.

2) Rent. Not buy. Yes, a single guy making $160,000 a year can rent a nice one-bedroom apartment in a decent area in New York City.


1) You're pissing away huge amounts of money by repaying your 8% loans over 25 years. And it doesn't reduce your monthly payment by as much as you'd think. While you're still paying $1500/month on your loans at 50, the responsible guy will have paid of his loans 15 years earlier.
2) Renting an apartment is not an investment. It's strictly an expense.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:34 pm

All I am arguing is that he doesn't have to accept your extreme view on post-law school life. If he's making $160k/yr, he'll take home let's say about $8,500 per month. Take out $2,500 for a loan payment. That's $6,000. Take out $2,000-$2,500 for a decent 1-bedroom apartment in a decent area. He'll have about $3,500 left over. How is that a difficult situation to live by exactly?

The benefits will be that he will actually get to live it up now that he's made it in life and is a big shot at a big law firm. What people on here are proposing is: "Live in a piece of shit studio in a piece of shit area so you can save every penny you've got!"

I'm not saying DON'T save. I'm saying, don't JUST save.


1) You're pissing away huge amounts of money by repaying your 8% loans over 25 years. And it doesn't reduce your monthly payment by as much as you'd think. While you're still paying $1500/month on your loans at 50, the responsible guy will have paid of his loans 15 years earlier.
2) Renting an apartment is not an investment. It's strictly an expense.


And I agree with #2, but there is a view that says it is an investment. Again, it depends on whether you want to be happy and enjoy life, or whether you're ok living in a rat-infested studio so you can pay off your loans.

The investment is there in terms of overall happiness, meeting women (I'm sure you guys think this is important, right?), and enjoying the fruits of your labor.

As for paying your loan off when you're 50---if by 50 you are still an associate making $160k/yr, something went wrong, assuming that's where you started. Pretty sure this guy will be making a lot, a lot more money down the road.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:50 pm

Eco wrote:All I am arguing is that he doesn't have to accept your extreme view on post-law school life. If he's making $160k/yr, he'll take home let's say about $8,500 per month. Take out $2,500 for a loan payment. That's $6,000. Take out $2,000-$2,500 for a decent 1-bedroom apartment in a decent area. He'll have about $3,500 left over. How is that a difficult situation to live by exactly?

The benefits will be that he will actually get to live it up now that he's made it in life and is a big shot at a big law firm. What people on here are proposing is: "Live in a piece of shit studio in a piece of shit area so you can save every penny you've got!"

I'm not saying DON'T save. I'm saying, don't JUST save.


1) You're pissing away huge amounts of money by repaying your 8% loans over 25 years. And it doesn't reduce your monthly payment by as much as you'd think. While you're still paying $1500/month on your loans at 50, the responsible guy will have paid of his loans 15 years earlier.
2) Renting an apartment is not an investment. It's strictly an expense.


And I agree with #2, but there is a view that says it is an investment. Again, it depends on whether you want to be happy and enjoy life, or whether you're ok living in a rat-infested studio so you can pay off your loans.

The investment is there in terms of overall happiness, meeting women (I'm sure you guys think this is important, right?), and enjoying the fruits of your labor.


I agree with you re: the general point of balancing between a decent quality of life saving. I'm saying that your specific advice is not realistic in NYC (apartment in SoHo), and your advice to not repay on the 10-year plan is really irresponsible. Some of your claims (loan payments are no big deal, like eating out once a month) are just completely ridiculous. Your loan payments will be your first or second biggest expense every month, comparable to your rent!

Your numbers are quite a bit off for NYC. The budget looks more like this:

$8150 - take home, incl. NY state and NYC city tax (yes, NYC has a city income tax of about $450 in this bracket)
$200 - health insurance premium (yes, firms are TTT and make you pay part of your insurance premium)
$2650 - monthly payment for $220k of debt at 7.67% over 10 years
$3300 - rent for a nice 1BR in a place like SoHo (like you suggested)
$1000 - food, going out, etc
---
$1000 for saving.

NYC is an incredibly expensive city---you're not going to be living it up going clubbing several times a week on $1000. MTA pass is going to eat up $100 right off the bat. Drycleaning will eat up another $100 or so. You won't have time to cook so you'll eat out all the time. Even if you can hold living expenses to $1000, saving $1000/month is just too little---even after a year you'll barely have saved a few months rent.

Instead of getting a place in SoHo, you can get a nice 2BR apartment in Midtown East with roommate for $2,000/person. Up your living expenses to a more realistic $1300/month. Double your saving rate to $2000 per month. Do this for a couple of years so you have enough money in the bank to survive for 4-6 months if you get Latham-ed. By then you'll be making more money ($185k) and can up your lifestyle a bit.

Re: making more than $160k --- don't count on it. You may never make more than you do as an associate. Median in-house salaries are something like $175k. Plenty of money, sure, but much less so with $1500/month in loan payments. In litigation, your exit from a big firm might be to a small firm that pays $120k or so or a government job paying $100k.
Last edited by rayiner on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby Eco » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:52 pm

Oh come on. I didn't say go out clubbing several times a week.

I'm assuming he'll be working all day and even over the weekend anyways. Having a nice apartment will make all of that much easier. And he could go to a bar every once in a while. The bottom line is, that if meeting a successful woman to get married to also depends on how well you project your own success, and you need to have something to show for it.

Honestly, are you guys listening to yourselves? You're telling a guy making 160k per year to live in a studio!

$3300 - rent for a nice 1BR in a place like SoHo (like you suggested)
$1000 - food, going out, etc


I'm going to take issue with the $3,300 for a 1BR. You can find them for much cheaper. I suggested he look at smaller buildings instead of those luxury doorman highrises. There's A LOT of them in NYC. I'll give you an example- D.C. is also expensive with the rent. But here in D.C. I pay $1,300 for a 1 bedroom in one of the best and safest areas in the city. Most of the buildings in my area are MUCH more expensive.

Why do I pay so little for a really great apartment? Because a) It's a condominium I'm renting from a private owner and b) It's a small building, so units are privately owned.

Even if units aren't privately owned, smaller buildings almost always have nicer apartments and cheaper rent. You just have to be willing to forgo the swimming pool, doorman and gym.

Re: making more than $160k --- don't count on it. You may never make more than you do as an associate. Median in-house salaries are something like $175k. Plenty of money, sure, but much less so with $1500/month in loan payments. In litigation, your exit from a big firm might be to a small firm that pays $120k or so or a government job paying $100k.


There's a lot more ways for someone with that kind of salary to make even more money. Investing in stock market is just one.
Last edited by Eco on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NY Associates: Where to live?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:56 pm

Eco wrote:The bottom line is, that if meeting a successful woman to get married to also depends on how well you project your own success, and you need to have something to show for it.

Honestly, are you guys listening to yourselves? You're telling a guy making 160k per year to live in a studio!


Women living in NYC know the score. They're not impressed by lawyer money (there are tons of bankers running around making 2-10x as much), so that's entirely the wrong angle to play. At the same time they also know that NYC is hella expensive and will think nothing of a mid-20's guy making six-figures living with roommates.




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