K&E v. Cravath Forum

[Anonymous User]

There's a difference between "working really hard" and "working for several weeks straight with no days off and having to respond to e-mails at 4 AM." I'm not saying this doesn't occasionally happen at some firms, but this seemed to be the norm for Cravath summers this year, which is why more than a few of them did 3L OCI at their respective schools despite having offers.

This is probably where the distinction between the rotation system (Cravath) and the free market system (K&E) comes into play: if you happen to be assigned to an associate who feels it's appropriate to e-mail you at all hours of the night with unreasonable demands, then you're stuck with them for an extended period of time, and your life will be a living hell for that entire rotation. In a free market system, you have the option of working with whomever you choose (and chooses you).

This was not the norm @ Cravath this summer. The norm was consistent nights until 8pm, some weeks 10pm, and occasionally nights past midnight. Weekend/holiday work was also common. Is it possible you'll get slammed all summer? Yes. Will they protect you because you are a summer? No. Is it guaranteed you will work like a dog all summer? Absolutely not. Some people left at 6pm consistently; some were nearly sleeping under their desks. It depends on the partner and the work available.

So what you're saying is, working until 8-10 PM, with some nights past midnight, with work on weekends and July 4th, was the norm at Cravath...for its summer class. And that some summers were consistently slammed and pulling all nighters.

Look, I understand that most people in BigLaw are mentally prepared to work to death, but I haven't heard of a single other firm -- including K&E -- where summers were worked half as hard. Concerts and baseball games and happy hours are some of the perks that make working in BigLaw worth it; during your summer associateship, you should be trying to impress your firm and your firm should be trying to impress you. Is the Cravath name really worth it? Is the goal to have "exit options," or is the goal to find a place where you actually want to stay on for more than three years?

Don't you want to know exactly what it's like to work at a firm before accepting an offer to begin your career there? A substantial difference in hours worked by full-time associates is a legitimate concern. But the only concern I would have over summer hours is if they're not representative enough.

Fair. Do we have any data on how many hours CSM versus K&E corporate attorneys bill? Additionally interested in how many attorneys typically jump ship from those firms, and in what year.

[Anonymous User]

For the record, Cravath has a number of really great social events and is very, very generous about its summer lunches. Most summers exhausted the 5-star restaurants in walking distance from the office, so even if you were working a lot they built in lots of time for you to enjoy biglaw perks. And they don't work you needlessly; if you are there past 10pm, its usually because you have been given substantive work that must be done ASAP, rather than busy work with artificial deadlines.

I know absolutely nothing about K&E, other than some of my friends summered there and had a wonderful experience. All I'm trying to say is that my impression of the Cravath summer was that it was that it was a relatively accurate reflection of actual practice given the demands of such a high-profile, high-risk, high-reward profession. And, my original point wasn't that you should pick Cravath because you should be a glutton for punishment; it was only that you should pick a firm based on fundamentals (assignment system, partner contact, substantive practice areas, etc.) rather than the laxity of the summer program.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is almost always the wrong answer. Their name won't carry you anywhere that Kirkland's won't.

I really get annoyed by this guy. He goes on ranting and raving about points he knows nothing about. I don't have an opinion on Cravath v K&E - both will get you places. I just wanted to anonomously call out this guy so that I can be as big of an internet bad ass as he is.

[Anonymous User]

What about the decision of K&E (Chi) vs. Cravath? Does this comparison just come down to geographic preference?

bump, very interested in this

[quakeroats]

Cravath is almost always the wrong answer. Their name won't carry you anywhere that Kirkland's won't.

I really get annoyed by this guy. He goes on ranting and raving about points he knows nothing about. I don't have an opinion on Cravath v K&E - both will get you places. I just wanted to anonomously call out this guy so that I can be as big of an internet bad ass as he is.

+1

[Anonymous User]

What about the decision of K&E (Chi) vs. Cravath? Does this comparison just come down to geographic preference?

bump, very interested in this

Same here.

[Anonymous User]

What about K&E NY v. Cravath for litigation?

[Anonymous User]

K&E NALP says average associate billables were ~2200 in 2010. I haven't seen numbers for Cravath, but isn't it something like 24-2700?