employment odds

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273140
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: employment odds

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:50 pm

You're better off at the T14 because you'll at least get OCI interviews. The economy may pick up by the time you do them. And you might not be as dumb as you think you are and actually do well.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:58 pm

ITE8NY wrote:
kwais wrote:
Veyron wrote:
:roll: He means what kind of jerbs, yo?


oh my bad, V5, V10, V50, V100 + government + public interest. better?


Bullshit. The at-median grads I've seen have gone to doc review, temp positions, and working for free. If you know 6 people, each of whom fill each of the V5, etc. you list, then I guarantee that's about all there are.

Broski, the market's bad, but your hyperbole ain't helping you. Not every median student is doing doc review. More than 6 are getting good gigs.

User avatar
quiver
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:46 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby quiver » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:04 pm

ITE8NY wrote:work doing something else a few years, it'll help you do better in law school (if you still want to go)

While I'm not in the best position to evaluate jobs prospects, I am in a position to evaluate this part of your post...and I definitely do not agree. I've seen people without WE succeed (including myself) and people with WE succeed; probably about equal numbers of both. I'd hardly say that just because you worked for a year or two you will perform better in law school.

From what I've seen however, the rest of your post seems to be mostly accurate:
ITE8NY wrote:, help you get a job out of law school, and let you meet some lawyers and learn about the industry

as of right now, graduating in the middle in the T14 is a really shitty place to be, and graduating at the tippy-top of a "good" lower tier school still needs a big chunk of luck to get a midlaw job

Although I think this part is not necessarily a "bottom line" and requires context to know whether or not it is a bad investment:
ITE8NY wrote:bottom line: law school is a bad investment for most of the people who do it

User avatar
johansantana21
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:07 pm

Both are fucked.

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:10 pm

johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Agreed. Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment. Likewise bottom half of T14 is not something any employer wants. Simply put no employer wants to hire from the bottom of any class. You take what you can get from a spot like that.

User avatar
ThomasMN
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby ThomasMN » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:26 pm

johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Or you could just as intelligently say that we are all fucked at the moment the way that things are shaping up for the entire nation. Should I start storing dry food and dig my bunker?

desertlaw
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:03 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby desertlaw » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:34 pm

if both situations are equal, isn't the T14 better for the following reasons...

1 - the name recognition that goes with your school will always stay with you, even if your grades were bad. I'd much rather say that I went to "Cornell" or "Virginia" or "Michigan" law school than going to _______ Tier 2.

2 - networking. Higher-ranked schools bring in high quality students. Become a good friend, lover, spouse of someone at that school who is doing well, and you could end up profitting. This sounds bogus at first, but imagine if you became good friends with a bunch of smart people and they end up doing well. You might go to ShitLaw, but in 5-6 years they want to leave BigLaw and start their own shop. If you're still good friends and maybe you've gotten more hands-on trail experience than they have by doing ambulance chasing, then they ask you to join with them in their own firm.

3 - you actually get OCI interviews at the T14 schools, even if you are at median. So at least you might have the same shot of the Little Giants beating the Cowboys, but at least it's possible (ONE TIME!). At the other schools, you would probably have 0 OCI interviews.

4 - if you are an attractive girl (let's say 8+), going to a T14 to find a husband could lead to riches. Although you could just do this by moving to Cambridge or Palo Alto and finding where the law students hang out, you could get a husband and legal education for the same price if you actually attend.

User avatar
minnbills
Posts: 3153
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby minnbills » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:35 pm

MrAnon wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Agreed. Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment. Likewise bottom half of T14 is not something any employer wants. Simply put no employer wants to hire from the bottom of any class. You take what you can get from a spot like that.


Wait didn't 60% of the class at Cornell go biglaw?

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:41 pm

minnbills wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Agreed. Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment. Likewise bottom half of T14 is not something any employer wants. Simply put no employer wants to hire from the bottom of any class. You take what you can get from a spot like that.


Wait didn't 60% of the class at Cornell go biglaw?


According to who? Cornell?

User avatar
johansantana21
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:41 pm

ThomasMN wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Or you could just as intelligently say that we are all fucked at the moment the way that things are shaping up for the entire nation. Should I start storing dry food and dig my bunker?


Ok wait, I forgot to add that below median at HYS are still in decent shape.

User avatar
johansantana21
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:42 pm

MrAnon wrote:
minnbills wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Agreed. Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment. Likewise bottom half of T14 is not something any employer wants. Simply put no employer wants to hire from the bottom of any class. You take what you can get from a spot like that.


Wait didn't 60% of the class at Cornell go biglaw?


According to who? Cornell?


According to NLJ250 stats, Chicago did #1 cornell #2 but neither did 60% and I doubt that they will repeat those numbers.

User avatar
minnbills
Posts: 3153
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby minnbills » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:43 pm

MrAnon wrote:
minnbills wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Agreed. Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment. Likewise bottom half of T14 is not something any employer wants. Simply put no employer wants to hire from the bottom of any class. You take what you can get from a spot like that.


Wait didn't 60% of the class at Cornell go biglaw?


According to who? Cornell?


Law Firms: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

It was 58% 2010

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:49 pm

desertlaw wrote:if both situations are equal, isn't the T14 better for the following reasons...

1 - the name recognition that goes with your school will always stay with you, even if your grades were bad. I'd much rather say that I went to "Cornell" or "Virginia" or "Michigan" law school than going to _______ Tier 2.

2 - networking. Higher-ranked schools bring in high quality students. Become a good friend, lover, spouse of someone at that school who is doing well, and you could end up profitting. This sounds bogus at first, but imagine if you became good friends with a bunch of smart people and they end up doing well. You might go to ShitLaw, but in 5-6 years they want to leave BigLaw and start their own shop. If you're still good friends and maybe you've gotten more hands-on trail experience than they have by doing ambulance chasing, then they ask you to join with them in their own firm.

3 - you actually get OCI interviews at the T14 schools, even if you are at median. So at least you might have the same shot of the Little Giants beating the Cowboys, but at least it's possible (ONE TIME!). At the other schools, you would probably have 0 OCI interviews.

4 - if you are an attractive girl (let's say 8+), going to a T14 to find a husband could lead to riches. Although you could just do this by moving to Cambridge or Palo Alto and finding where the law students hang out, you could get a husband and legal education for the same price if you actually attend.


Number one might give you some personal solace but debt is debt and it is not payable in prestige points for going to Michigan. You need the job, not the cachet of going to a law school that once upon a time assured employment but no longer does now. I bet there were prestigious blacksmith schools but does it make a difference to a blacksmith looking for employment today whether he has a degree from one of them?

I just can't figure out why someone who kicked ass in law school, got biglaw, was successful there, and decided to open his own firm would go back and hire a bunch of people who didn't do that well in law school. Its one thing to be friends with them, but when it comes to business, do you really want them working for you? Why not grab a couple of biglaw success stories to partner with, not some guy who couldnt crack a biglaw interview.

The OCI thing is just something schools throw out to students to make them feel like however many thousands of dollars they pay for the degree is worth it. This in fact is why schools make firms interview a certain number of lottery picks as well as preselects. Its so the lottery picks can feel like they have a chance no matter how small. Much has been made of this here already but bottom line is, firms didnt want to hire you if you were not preselected, and they wont hire you on the basis of a lottery interview for sure.

You'll find attractive girls in locations where guys with money hang out. Law schools are full of guys with debtloads and slim chance at partnership.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:55 pm

MrAnon wrote:Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment.

Again, the market sucks, but when you pull numbers out of your ass (top 3? Really? From every local schools? Herp? Derp?) no one is going to listen to what you have to say.

ITE8NY
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:25 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby ITE8NY » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:55 pm

ThomasMN wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Or you could just as intelligently say that we are all fucked at the moment the way that things are shaping up for the entire nation. Should I start storing dry food and dig my bunker?


Graduating top 10% from a T14 isn't so bad. I did, and I'm doing spiffy. But that's not what this thread is about.

User avatar
ThomasMN
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby ThomasMN » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:09 pm

ITE8NY wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Both are fucked.


Or you could just as intelligently say that we are all fucked at the moment the way that things are shaping up for the entire nation. Should I start storing dry food and dig my bunker?


Graduating top 10% from a T14 isn't so bad. I did, and I'm doing spiffy. But that's not what this thread is about.


Big law won't save you when the zombies come.

User avatar
ThomasMN
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby ThomasMN » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:11 pm

MrAnon wrote:
desertlaw wrote:if both situations are equal, isn't the T14 better for the following reasons...

1 - the name recognition that goes with your school will always stay with you, even if your grades were bad. I'd much rather say that I went to "Cornell" or "Virginia" or "Michigan" law school than going to _______ Tier 2.

2 - networking. Higher-ranked schools bring in high quality students. Become a good friend, lover, spouse of someone at that school who is doing well, and you could end up profitting. This sounds bogus at first, but imagine if you became good friends with a bunch of smart people and they end up doing well. You might go to ShitLaw, but in 5-6 years they want to leave BigLaw and start their own shop. If you're still good friends and maybe you've gotten more hands-on trail experience than they have by doing ambulance chasing, then they ask you to join with them in their own firm.

3 - you actually get OCI interviews at the T14 schools, even if you are at median. So at least you might have the same shot of the Little Giants beating the Cowboys, but at least it's possible (ONE TIME!). At the other schools, you would probably have 0 OCI interviews.

4 - if you are an attractive girl (let's say 8+), going to a T14 to find a husband could lead to riches. Although you could just do this by moving to Cambridge or Palo Alto and finding where the law students hang out, you could get a husband and legal education for the same price if you actually attend.


Number one might give you some personal solace but debt is debt and it is not payable in prestige points for going to Michigan. You need the job, not the cachet of going to a law school that once upon a time assured employment but no longer does now. I bet there were prestigious blacksmith schools but does it make a difference to a blacksmith looking for employment today whether he has a degree from one of them?

I just can't figure out why someone who kicked ass in law school, got biglaw, was successful there, and decided to open his own firm would go back and hire a bunch of people who didn't do that well in law school. Its one thing to be friends with them, but when it comes to business, do you really want them working for you? Why not grab a couple of biglaw success stories to partner with, not some guy who couldnt crack a biglaw interview.

The OCI thing is just something schools throw out to students to make them feel like however many thousands of dollars they pay for the degree is worth it. This in fact is why schools make firms interview a certain number of lottery picks as well as preselects. Its so the lottery picks can feel like they have a chance no matter how small. Much has been made of this here already but bottom line is, firms didnt want to hire you if you were not preselected, and they wont hire you on the basis of a lottery interview for sure.

You'll find attractive girls in locations where guys with money hang out. Law schools are full of guys with debtloads and slim chance at partnership.


Metal workers actually do pretty well, especially welders.

User avatar
daesonesb
Posts: 499
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:18 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby daesonesb » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:26 pm

If you can land a t-14 you may be able to land a lower t-1 in your home market with a large scholarship. Don't go into this lower ranked school thinking that you will somehow end up at the top of your class. Consider the discrepancy in price, and how that lower t-1 school places in your home market. If you can grad with very low debt, it may very well be worth it to take the low school. Just make sure the scholarship isn't conditional on anything, or else you could very well lose it and pay sticker the second two years.

If you do take the lower T1, make sure to do the following:

-Moot court and mock trial.

-Secondary journal in the spring.

-Join an association (business law association, litigation association, whatever).

-If there is a LR write on, plz participate.

-Pick a lower T1 school in a big market NEAR the area which you live. Your chances of landing big law are much better if you are in a market that you have strong ties to. Being able to say "I love X school, because I plan to keep my career, family, life, etc in X state. I had to make a hard choice between "high ranked far away school" and this one, but I would make the same decision in a heartbeat because I love this place and my family is here." is a VERY good look for a biglaw interview. It makes them think that you are far less likely to be a flight risk, much more likely to stick it out.

-Going below T1 is probably not a good idea if you are trying to land biglaw.


Realize that you will have an objectively smaller chance of getting biglaw at this lower ranked school, but your much lower debt load may very well make it worth it anyway.

User avatar
YourCaptain
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby YourCaptain » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:36 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Just doing well at a local school can spell the end of things. You need to be among the top three students in the class to assure good employment.

Again, the market sucks, but when you pull numbers out of your ass (top 3? Really? From every local schools? Herp? Derp?) no one is going to listen to what you have to say.


He's closer than you would like to think. Definitely true for markets where the local school is a 4th tier (think Rhode Island) - students at T14s with ties to those regions dominate those kids.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:44 pm

*From someone who is well above median at a T2*

I would rather be below median at any T14 with the exception of GULC than top 25% at any T2.

de5igual
Posts: 1463
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:52 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby de5igual » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:47 pm

MrAnon wrote:The OCI thing is just something schools throw out to students to make them feel like however many thousands of dollars they pay for the degree is worth it. This in fact is why schools make firms interview a certain number of lottery picks as well as preselects. Its so the lottery picks can feel like they have a chance no matter how small. Much has been made of this here already but bottom line is, firms didnt want to hire you if you were not preselected, and they wont hire you on the basis of a lottery interview for sure.


If you want people to take you seriously, you really shouldn't speak in absolutes. "They won't hire you on the basis of a lottery interview for sure." Seriously? I know more than a handful of people that have managed to convert lottery interviews to callbacks, so it's certainly do-able. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

User avatar
daesonesb
Posts: 499
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:18 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby daesonesb » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:52 pm

[quote="f0bolous"][quote="MrAnon"]
Last edited by daesonesb on Sun May 06, 2012 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dsosah
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:30 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby dsosah » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:17 pm

Thanks everybody for your input. It's so frustrating, It seems like a huge risk to enter any career in this economy (except for medicine or some types of engineering, or some other few that I might be missing) Thing is, I couldn't be less interested in any of those fields. Law school seems to be a huge risk as well, there is just no way of knowing where you will end up, in what school, let alone in what class rank. Right now it feels like playing Russian roulette, but the only thing you can do is do your best, and hope everything will work out, and if it doesn't, well readjust I guess or "kill self" as many people in this forum like to put it. Thanks everybody for you comments and best of luck to all of you, hopefully we'll make it. :wink:

User avatar
johansantana21
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:26 pm

dsosah wrote:Thanks everybody for your input. It's so frustrating, It seems like a huge risk to enter any career in this economy (except for medicine or some types of engineering, or some other few that I might be missing) Thing is, I couldn't be less interested in any of those fields. Law school seems to be a huge risk as well, there is just no way of knowing where you will end up, in what school, let alone in what class rank. Right now it feels like playing Russian roulette, but the only thing you can do is do your best, and hope everything will work out, and if it doesn't, well readjust I guess or "kill self" as many people in this forum like to put it. Thanks everybody for you comments and best of luck to all of you, hopefully we'll make it. :wink:


Or you can get accepted to Yale. Just saying.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: employment odds

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:27 pm

dsosah wrote:Thanks everybody for your input. It's so frustrating, It seems like a huge risk to enter any career in this economy (except for medicine or some types of engineering, or some other few that I might be missing) Thing is, I couldn't be less interested in any of those fields. Law school seems to be a huge risk as well, there is just no way of knowing where you will end up, in what school, let alone in what class rank. Right now it feels like playing Russian roulette, but the only thing you can do is do your best, and hope everything will work out, and if it doesn't, well readjust I guess or "kill self" as many people in this forum like to put it. Thanks everybody for you comments and best of luck to all of you, hopefully we'll make it. :wink:

Well, right now you can control a few things; your LSAT, for one. If you do some soul searching and really do want to be a lawyer, your goal is to rock that test. You're not in too deep yet, and no need to be until you have some idea where you stand.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.