Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

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Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:35 pm

I was no-offered at my 2L summer firm a few weeks ago. The hiring partner said that all of the summer associates were excellent candidates, and that my work product was very good, but that the firm just had to make "very difficult decisions" about whom to hire, due to finances.

If one or more of the SAs who received offers declined the offers, is there any chance at all that the firm might reconsider me if I let them know that I would still very much like to work with them? Has anyone you know ever "appealed" a no-offer? What was the outcome?

Thanks!

ruski
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby ruski » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:46 pm

doubtful. i would think the firm would rather interview new candidates if they found out they really needed more associates, rather than call someone they no-offered. first they would really have to swallow their pride before they crawl back to some 2L, but regardless of that psychological component its just unprofessoinal - thats not the type of reputation a firm wants to build.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:55 pm

What if the former 2L (now 3L) crawls back to them? (While maintaining a sense of professionalism, of course.)

MrAnon
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:02 pm

No because very often some people like you and want to hire you, and some people don't. Those that don't have won. They won the decision to let you go, and to hire someone else over you. To reverse any of that now would upset the politics of the situation.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:04 pm

I'm pretty sure your firm had factored in the economy when they made the decision to hire you as a summer associate. Businesses were certainly not less conservative last year than they are this year. If anything, they were super-conservative with class sizes for last year's class.

My point is this: it is possible that they're sugar-coating your no-offer by talking about finances and complimenting your work product.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure your firm had factored in the economy when they made the decision to hire you as a summer associate. Businesses were certainly not less conservative last year than they are this year. If anything, they were super-conservative with class sizes for last year's class.

My point is this: it is possible that they're sugar-coating your no-offer by talking about finances and complimenting your work product.


The firm explicitly told the SAs last fall that it expected to extend offers to all of us. The firm ended up no-offering at least 40% of the SAs.

kahechsof
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby kahechsof » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure your firm had factored in the economy when they made the decision to hire you as a summer associate. Businesses were certainly not less conservative last year than they are this year. If anything, they were super-conservative with class sizes for last year's class.

My point is this: it is possible that they're sugar-coating your no-offer by talking about finances and complimenting your work product.


The firm explicitly told the SAs last fall that it expected to extend offers to all of us. The firm ended up no-offering at least 40% of the SAs.


40%?
Out them right now.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:19 pm

MrAnon wrote:No because very often some people like you and want to hire you, and some people don't. Those that don't have won. They won the decision to let you go, and to hire someone else over you. To reverse any of that now would upset the politics of the situation.


True, but it's also possible that no one dislikes the SAs who weren't hired, but they just liked some of the other SAs a bit more. Say there were 10 SAs, but the firm only has the money/anticipated work to hire 5 new associates. The firm extends 7 offers, and only 2 SAs accept. Might the firm reconsider those 3 no-offered SAs to fill the 3 empty spaces?

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:21 pm

kahechsof wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure your firm had factored in the economy when they made the decision to hire you as a summer associate. Businesses were certainly not less conservative last year than they are this year. If anything, they were super-conservative with class sizes for last year's class.

My point is this: it is possible that they're sugar-coating your no-offer by talking about finances and complimenting your work product.


The firm explicitly told the SAs last fall that it expected to extend offers to all of us. The firm ended up no-offering at least 40% of the SAs.


40%?
Out them right now.


All I can say is that their offer rate was about the same this year as it has been in past years. Some of the SAs were concerned about this practice last fall, and, therefore, asked about it. The firm reassured us that it planned to break this trend and give everyone an offer.

MrAnon
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:22 pm

no. the bottom line is they are not going to reverse themselves. The reason they no offered is so you can make other plans, not sit around wondering if things are going to work out with them.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
kahechsof wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm pretty sure your firm had factored in the economy when they made the decision to hire you as a summer associate. Businesses were certainly not less conservative last year than they are this year. If anything, they were super-conservative with class sizes for last year's class.

My point is this: it is possible that they're sugar-coating your no-offer by talking about finances and complimenting your work product.


The firm explicitly told the SAs last fall that it expected to extend offers to all of us. The firm ended up no-offering at least 40% of the SAs.


40%?
Out them right now.


All I can say is that their offer rate was about the same this year as it has been in past years. Some of the SAs were concerned about this practice last fall, and, therefore, asked about it. The firm reassured us that it planned to break this trend and give everyone an offer.



Welcome to the business world and welcome to dealing with lawyers. I'd move on. Dwelling on the firm isn't going to help you at this point.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:07 pm

No but it would help other people if you posted the name of the firm.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No but it would help other people if you posted the name of the firm.


I'm being paranoid, but all I feel comfortable saying is that it's a large local firm. It's not in NY, CA, or DC.

MrAnon
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:15 pm

It doesnt help anything. All these firms can say they will make 100% offers and change their minds at any time. Besides I seriously doubt they made anyone a promise they would be making 100% offers. They probably said it was their intention or something fishy.

ITE8NY
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby ITE8NY » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No but it would help other people if you posted the name of the firm.


I'm being paranoid, but all I feel comfortable saying is that it's a large local firm. It's not in NY, CA, or DC.


What are they going to do? Not give you an offer?

Ever consider whether your lack of success is due to lack of a spine? This firm told you that they planned to give everyone an offer. According to you, 40% of their summers got absolutely fucked by that lie. The firm, by contrast, got its absolute pick of the lot. It's puzzling why you think you owe them rather than the people who might be taken in in the future.
Last edited by ITE8NY on Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kahechsof
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby kahechsof » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:32 pm

ITE8NY wrote:
Ever consider whether your lack of success is due to lack of a spine?


Unnecessary. The OP is having a hard enough time without your help.

ITE8NY
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby ITE8NY » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:33 pm

kahechsof wrote:
ITE8NY wrote:
Ever consider whether your lack of success is due to lack of a spine?


Unnecessary. The OP is having a hard enough time without your help.


Edited to add some reasoning. The OP needs to learn how business works or he'll continue to have a hard time.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:35 pm

ITE8NY wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No but it would help other people if you posted the name of the firm.


I'm being paranoid, but all I feel comfortable saying is that it's a large local firm. It's not in NY, CA, or DC.


What are they going to do? Not give you an offer?

Ever consider whether your lack of success is due to lack of a spine? This firm told you that they planned to give everyone an offer. According to you, 60% of their summers got absolutely fucked by that lie. The firm, by contrast, got its absolute pick of the lot. It's puzzling why you think you owe them rather than the people who might be taken in in the future.


They never told me personally about the plan to give everyone an offer. I never asked. Another SA claims to have been told this, so I'm not sure how solid of an assurance it actually was.

ITE8NY
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby ITE8NY » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:They never told me personally about the plan to give everyone an offer. I never asked. Another SA claims to have been told this, so I'm not sure how solid of an assurance it actually was.


The short of it is, they fucked their summers and lied to at least one of them. They had everything to gain by this, you had everything to lose. It's pretty lame of you to protect them--anonymously, even.

In answer to your original question, if they'd wanted you, they would've given you an offer. They're already going to OCI right now and offering summer positions to more students than they'll need, for next summer, and will repeat what they just did to you.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:10 pm

midwest right? and this firm has had a history of no offers over the 3 years right? did you guys have a lot of summer associates or was it a small amount and they no offered a small amount ie 3/5 vs 6/10.

uci2013
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby uci2013 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:56 pm

Look, it doesn't hurt, if there is a partner you are close to, to say you enjoyed your time there and if circumstances change you hope they will reconsider extending you an offer. The worst that will happen is you are in the same boat you are in now. The best thing that happens is someone turns down an offer and the partner remembers your expression of continued interest in the firm. In fact, if you were close to one or some of the partners, or even associates, it doesn't hurt to keep in contact with them in general and keep them as part of your network.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:59 pm

ITT: OP reveals he has zero self-respect.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:05 pm

ITE8NY wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:They never told me personally about the plan to give everyone an offer. I never asked. Another SA claims to have been told this, so I'm not sure how solid of an assurance it actually was.


The short of it is, they fucked their summers and lied to at least one of them. They had everything to gain by this, you had everything to lose. It's pretty lame of you to protect them--anonymously, even.

In answer to your original question, if they'd wanted you, they would've given you an offer. They're already going to OCI right now and offering summer positions to more students than they'll need, for next summer, and will repeat what they just did to you.


If they have a history of no-offers, it'll be plenty obvious on their NALP stats, which future 2Ls are more likely to peruse than this thread. Either way, one anonymous disgruntled no-offeree isn't going to change the minds of a bunch of 2Ls getting ready to gamble their futures.

ITE8NY
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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby ITE8NY » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
If they have a history of no-offers, it'll be plenty obvious on their NALP stats, which future 2Ls are more likely to peruse than this thread. Either way, one anonymous disgruntled no-offeree isn't going to change the minds of a bunch of 2Ls getting ready to gamble their futures.


IME, NALP offer stats are not accurate. This is based on both my summer firms, and on my summer and the adjacent summers at those firms, as well as on other midlaw firms with ties to my school. I'm not sure if this is a matter of straight up lies, or some kind of gimcrack reasoning on what is/is not an "offer," but there you go.

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Re: Do Firms Ever Reconsider SAs after No-Offering Them?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:38 pm

I get the doom and gloom, seeing as how the OP should not pin his hopes on this firm coming back to him. But you guys are wrong, firms do this. It all depends on the firm. My firm is currently in the process of trying to hire on the summers they had to no offer two years ago. They don't like that they had to do that, they really liked some of those summer associates, and they are willing to pay for them now. It isn't the firm admitting a mistake or appearing weak, the firm is saying they value those people and showing strength by hiring them on - both by having the money to do so and by having the pull to get them to come back two years on. The fact that my firm is doing this is one of the reasons I am excited to work there.

Admittedly, this is two years down the line, so it is a bit different. But my point remains, the world is not as black and white as what y'all are saying.




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