3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

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3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:49 pm

This past summer, I clerked with two highly successful, well-known law firms in one of the top ten largest U.S. cities. I was told by multiple attorneys that the quality of my work product was above what the average associate at their firm produces. However, at the end of the summer, both firms ultimately did not extend me job offers. One firm said that they weren't able to hire all the summer clerks due to finances, and, essentially, that some of the other clerks just "fit" a little better with the firm. The other firm said that the decision-makers were very divided about whether to extend me an offer, but ultimately there wasn't enough of a consensus in my favor to hire me without possibly provoking contention within the firm. I have a feeling, based on some direct comments and some inferences on my part, that at least some of the decision-makers at each firm felt that I am not social or outgoing enough to eventually build my own client base. I am not shy or reclusive. I enjoy talking to and joking with people. I never sat in awkward silence with any of the attorneys, and I got along extremely well with many of them (so I thought, anyway). I went to all of the summer events at one firm, and almost all of the events at the other firm. Due to personal preference, though, I don't drink, and I don't like to stay out very late. However, I didn't consciously make others feel uncomfortable when they were drinking, and I didn't leave any events obnoxiously early. In fact, I was one of the last people remaining at a few of the evening events at one firm. On the other hand, I was one of the first to leave at another event there, and I was one of the first to leave several events at the other firm.

Anyhow, I am now the only 3L I know who has been no-offered by both of their summer law firms, so I wanted to see if anyone else out there has been in a similar position. If so, how did you deal with it? Were you ultimately successful at finding a job that was as good as or nearly as good as the job or jobs that you were denied? Just how bad does it look to employers when an applicant has been double no-offered?

Thanks in advance for your input.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby RMstratosphere » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:54 pm

Best of luck to you.

Torvon
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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Torvon » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:55 pm

Any chance you were no-offered at both firms because you split your summer? Do you know of any summer associate at either firm that split their summer and obtained an offer?

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:06 am

Torvon wrote:Any chance you were no-offered at both firms because you split your summer? Do you know of any summer associate at either firm that split their summer and obtained an offer?


In the city where I clerked, it's the norm to do split summers. All of the other clerks at both firms did two clerkships.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:41 am

Texas man, every SA is 6 weeks and nearly everyone splits.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby kahechsof » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:52 am

That stinks (wo)man

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:I never sat in awkward silence with any of the attorneys...


Well, not awkward for you, anyway...you can't speak to how the attorneys felt.

Unfortunately, it looks like there is a social interaction issue at play. It's time for some honest and open communication with some close friends and family to find out what you're doing wrong. It's probably that you're coming across in a way that you don't intend. (With law students that tends to be arrogant or aloof or presumptuous.) It's really too bad if your work product is good b/c people can change, socially. At least to some extent. Good luck.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby shoeshine » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:34 am

I am sorry to hear that.

Your story is like a PSA for why drinking is important in business situations.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby KMaine » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:13 am

shoeshine wrote:I am sorry to hear that.

Your story is like a PSA for why drinking is important in business situations.


Do not really want to get into a full debate about this, but I do not feel this is remotely credited. If somebody makes a personal decision not to drink, I think they can do very well in social and business situations. I didn't drink once during my SA, and it was never an issue. I am very sorry for OP, but there seems to be more at issue here. To skapegoat the not drinking would be to ignore what is the real problem here (not sure what that is).

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:22 am

Start mass mailing asap. I got no offered by 1 firm. I only got 2 screener interviews and 1 callback. So it is a tough market out there for the people that got no offered.

Im not sure if working 2 clerkships and getting no offered is better than 1 clerkship and getting no offered. On one hand you can say that it was because of the split summer. On the other hand, they might think... wtf? 2 law firms not wanting to offer you back? there might be something wrong with this guy.

When they called you to tell you the bad news, did they seem nice about it? ie do you think they will give you solid reviews if someone else calls the two firms? is that firm in your hometown/area?

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Alyosha » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:31 am

Yeah I never drank at any of the social events at my firm either, and everything worked out fine. OP, is there an attorney at either firm you can contact who you trust? There has to be a specific reason some of the SA's got an offer and you didn't. If you can figure out the specific reason you were no offered, then you can at least correct the problem going forward.

I'm really sorry about what happened. In the book "The Guerilla Guide for Getting the Law School Job of Your Dreams" there is an entire chapter about what to do if you get no-offered. Your career services office probably has a copy if you want to look into it.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:28 am

OP, is there an attorney at either firm you can contact who you trust? There has to be a specific reason some of the SA's got an offer and you didn't.
Yeah, as difficult as it may be, I would swallow my pride and do this. There is a thread out there where an attorney called the student for CB rejection, and offered him a candid assessment of the reasons behind his rejection. Perhaps you can find a similarly candid person at the firm. Of course if social interaction is the problem, then it is possible that you didn't bond well enough with anyone for them to be this candid with you. But you have nothing to lose by trying.

Can you ask the firms for a "soft-rejection" instead? (Is that the right expression? Where they allow you to pretend for purposes of job search that they did offer you to stay, but you are still shopping around.)

Is it possible to just have one of the firms on the resume? Could the OP ask one of the firm permission to pretend that he worked there all summer? Is this even done?

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:39 am

Is it possible to just have one of the firms on the resume? Could the OP ask one of the firm permission to pretend that he worked there all summer? Is this even done?

I agree with this suggestion; just list one firm on your resume. Obviously you can't lie about your employment (i.e. you can't state "May-August 2011" when you really only worked July and August), but if you just use "Summer 2011" that's not a lie. Sure, it's misleading, but you're under no obligation to disclose everything on your resume. I think this will be necessary since two no-offers just seems impossible to recover from right now.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:37 am

Thanks for all of your helpful responses thus far. I did bond with many people at both firms, though more so at one than the other. I have been corresponding with a partner at one to try to get more specific feedback, and I will do the same at the other very soon. One partner has offered to give solid recommendations.

I hadn't even thought of putting just one of the firms on my resume. While I can see how it might make me more likely to get an interview in the first place, it seems like it could ultimately backfire. The interviewer would find out right away that I clerked at a second firm, since they'd probably ask whether I worked at the listed firm all summer or for just half of the summer. I'm concerned that they would then think that I did something really awful at the unlisted firm, or they at least would think that I am not completely candid.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby dougroberts » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:I hadn't even thought of putting just one of the firms on my resume. While I can see how it might make me more likely to get an interview in the first place, it seems like it could ultimately backfire. The interviewer would find out right away that I clerked at a second firm, since they'd probably ask whether I worked at the listed firm all summer or for just half of the summer. I'm concerned that they would then think that I did something really awful at the unlisted firm, or they at least would think that I am not completely candid.



Yea, I do not agree with only listing one firm. They will find out eventually when you do conflict checks when you start at a new firm, for example.

Could you say you were no-offered because business was slow at the two firms, assuming that was true? Based on your description, it seems that they would have made an offer to if they needed more associates - that is, they only had a need for 1 or 2 and you didn't make that cut.

Best of luck!

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:50 am

Unless you were the only SA no-offered at the second firm, I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that this is your fault. Firms do no-offer people, and although getting no-offered twice is the least likely outcome (unless one or both firms no-offer more than half their class), it's not an outlandish possibility.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:03 am

BaiAilian2013 wrote:Unless you were the only SA no-offered at the second firm, I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that this is your fault. Firms do no-offer people, and although getting no-offered twice is the least likely outcome (unless one or both firms no-offer more than half their class), it's not an outlandish possibility.


There were only a few SAs at the second firm, and we all got no-offered. However, the partner said that they are still looking to hire a new associate.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby kahechsof » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Unless you were the only SA no-offered at the second firm, I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that this is your fault. Firms do no-offer people, and although getting no-offered twice is the least likely outcome (unless one or both firms no-offer more than half their class), it's not an outlandish possibility.


There were only a few SAs at the second firm, and we all got no-offered. However, the partner said that they are still looking to hire a new associate.


Yeah, so I'd stress the first sentence of that statement, and not mention the second.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Unless you were the only SA no-offered at the second firm, I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that this is your fault. Firms do no-offer people, and although getting no-offered twice is the least likely outcome (unless one or both firms no-offer more than half their class), it's not an outlandish possibility.


There were only a few SAs at the second firm, and we all got no-offered. However, the partner said that they are still looking to hire a new associate.


You should do all prospective summer associates a favor and out the firm that no-offered everyone.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby NE1410S » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:One firm said that they weren't able to hire all the summer clerks due to finances, and, essentially, that some of the other clerks just "fit" a little better with the firm. The other firm said that the decision-makers were very divided about whether to extend me an offer, but ultimately there wasn't enough of a consensus in my favor to hire me without possibly provoking contention within the firm.



I've worked with a couple SA's that were very bright; however, they didn't seem to fit well either. Of course, they thought they were getting along well with everyone. Each of them just had a way of saying odd things that were often well outside the scope of the current conversation. That isn't a big deal when you know the person you're speaking to, but when you're trying to get to know people it can put a strain on the conversation.

My point is that you should talk to an associate or partner that you developed a relationship with to understand what went wrong. As them to be very honest with you because this is what you need. It may be something simple. It also might just be the economy. I know you thought everything went well, but the SA's in the previous paragraph thought everything was fine also.

Good luck!!!

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BaiAilian2013 wrote:Unless you were the only SA no-offered at the second firm, I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that this is your fault. Firms do no-offer people, and although getting no-offered twice is the least likely outcome (unless one or both firms no-offer more than half their class), it's not an outlandish possibility.


There were only a few SAs at the second firm, and we all got no-offered. However, the partner said that they are still looking to hire a new associate.

A new first-year associate, or "hm, maybe a lateral will just be easier"? They sure are a fancy-pants selective firm, and some other words too, if they want a first-year associate but deem all their SAs unworthy. Definitely mention that the entire class was no-offered.

longhornnyc
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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby longhornnyc » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:21 am

Can you out the firms? Was it any of the BIG TEXAS 3?

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby kahechsof » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:21 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
You should do all prospective summer associates a favor and out the firm that no-offered everyone.


absolutely. right now.

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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:59 am

Fresh Prince wrote:You should do all prospective summer associates a favor and out the firm that no-offered everyone.

And if you're not comfortable doing it on TLS in this thread, you should send an anonymous email to ATL -- I'm sure they'd be interested in hearing about a firm that no-offered their entire summer class.

Eco
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Re: 3L No-Offered by Both Summer Clerkship Firms

Postby Eco » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:16 pm

The good news is you do have a lot of experience, go look for jobs, 3Ls do get hired.




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