No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:31 am

To counter what Kool-Aid implied--that it's all about the grades, grades, grades and absolutely nothing more--I know some people at my lower T14 who got great jobs due to a number of factors that had nothing to do with grades or URM status. My non-URM friend snagged a great summer judicial externship and had worked for a while at an obscure firm that impressed his interviewers for the very specific work that firm did. He's also an incredible interviewee. Though he was a bit above median, he got a V5 offer. Another non-URM friend--slightly below median, straight from undergrad, and average interviewee--snagged a few offers because she had done wonderfully in her undergrad science courses. Then I have another straight-from-undergrad non-URM friend, top 15% most likely, who was no-offered at his 6 CBs or so. He's fiercely intelligent when you get him going, but there was something about him that turned off some of his interviewers. It really is more of a crap-shoot than most 1Ls realize. The surprising thing about this whole process is that unless you're at the top 5% grades-wise, take nothing for granted. Killer interviewing skills are extremely important, though never taught in undergrad or law school. The centrality of good interviewing skills for successful screeners and CBs was a very rude awakening for some. You have to get good at interviewing before your financial future is on the line.

In other words, OCI is possibly the most real-world phenomenon I have yet experienced in law school. Charm, cool confidence, and knowing how to converse with people while simultaneously selling yourself gets you employed. Unsociable or clueless bookworms, especially ones that don't offer specialized skills of some sort or impressive WE, will lose out more often than not.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:In other words, OCI is possibly the most real-world phenomenon I have yet experienced in law school. Charm, cool confidence, and knowing how to converse with people while simultaneously selling yourself gets you employed. Unsociable or clueless bookworms, especially ones that don't offer specialized skills of some sort or impressive WE, will lose out more often than not.


Except that law firm interviewing is totally weird compared to regular interviewing. Also, I'm pretty far from an "unsociable bookworm" and I did terribly. , things like undergrad prestige or grades seem to count for a lot more than I expected. A lot of it is a function of whether or not you can "connect" well with your interviewers and a very big portion of that is luck of the draw on whether or not you get interviewers that are similar to you.

Are some people absolutely amazing interviewers and can pretty much charm anyone? Of course. But I think "law firm charming" can be very different from "real world charming". And the lines are different for women then they are for men.

mrloblaw
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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:Except that law firm interviewing is totally weird compared to regular interviewing. Also, I'm pretty far from an "unsociable bookworm" and I did terribly. , things like undergrad prestige or grades seem to count for a lot more than I expected. A lot of it is a function of whether or not you can "connect" well with your interviewers and a very big portion of that is luck of the draw on whether or not you get interviewers that are similar to you.

Are some people absolutely amazing interviewers and can pretty much charm anyone? Of course. But I think "law firm charming" can be very different from "real world charming". And the lines are different for women then they are for men.


You mean you never had an outside-world interview where the interviewer completely eschewed discussion of your qualifications and relevant experience, in favor of forcing you to prove, to the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard, that you wanted to work there more than anywhere else in the whole world?

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In other words, OCI is possibly the most real-world phenomenon I have yet experienced in law school. Charm, cool confidence, and knowing how to converse with people while simultaneously selling yourself gets you employed. Unsociable or clueless bookworms, especially ones that don't offer specialized skills of some sort or impressive WE, will lose out more often than not.


Except that law firm interviewing is totally weird compared to regular interviewing. Also, I'm pretty far from an "unsociable bookworm" and I did terribly. , things like undergrad prestige or grades seem to count for a lot more than I expected. A lot of it is a function of whether or not you can "connect" well with your interviewers and a very big portion of that is luck of the draw on whether or not you get interviewers that are similar to you.

Are some people absolutely amazing interviewers and can pretty much charm anyone? Of course. But I think "law firm charming" can be very different from "real world charming". And the lines are different for women then they are for men.


Sorry for the uncharitable language. I should've qualified that not all who get no-offered are "unsociable or clueless bookworms." Some can be better-than average interviewers. A lot also has to do with just dumb luck--what the interviewer ate for breakfast can, incredibly, determine whether or not you get the job. Or having only two CBs just go completely wrong, and they're your only two CBs. Just like in the real world--being the right person at the right place at the right time with the right attitude--can play a very outsized role, unfortunately. And it's a real world skill to know when to be "law firm charming" and when to be "real world charming." Grasping the difference early on is huge, and some people just have the chops to intuitively get how to be "law firm charming." It sucks, and doesn't detract from my original point--interviewing skills are a must. Differential expectations, prejudices and outcomes for both men and women are also very much real world phenomena, as well as undergrad snobbery--HYP almost always places the interviewee in a great position at almost any job. No blind grading there, sadly.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:23 am

Law firm interviews are completely different from interviewing for finance and other jobs. Firms have much more of an element of suspicion in the interview- location, practice group, etc. They seem to think you're constantly bullshitting them and it's up to you to disprove that assumption- I never encountered this when interviewing for other jobs.

That part is very different from them simply making you prove you're a nice guy and can hold a conversation.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:23 pm

Jumping ship, everyone. Just got rejected from my last callback (0/3). Using the next few days to decide whether or not to drop out of law school.

I wish better luck to everyone still here.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:57 pm

Why would you drop out of law school? You're already half way through (paying at least) if you're paying full price at a T3 or T4 (possibly even a T2 in this market) you should have never went to law school or busted ass to transfer. If you're paying full price at a T1 you're pot committed. Pick up a weekend job and cut back living expenses to make it cheaper but don't quit. That just means you shouldn't have been here to begin with.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Grizz » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Why would you drop out of law school? You're already half way through (paying at least) if you're paying full price at a T3 or T4 (possibly even a T2 in this market) you should have never went to law school or busted ass to transfer. If you're paying full price at a T1 you're pot committed. Pick up a weekend job and cut back living expenses to make it cheaper but don't quit. That just means you shouldn't have been here to begin with.

Sunk costs brah

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Grizz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Why would you drop out of law school? You're already half way through (paying at least) if you're paying full price at a T3 or T4 (possibly even a T2 in this market) you should have never went to law school or busted ass to transfer. If you're paying full price at a T1 you're pot committed. Pick up a weekend job and cut back living expenses to make it cheaper but don't quit. That just means you shouldn't have been here to begin with.

Sunk costs brah


Exactly. Knowing that I'll never have a legal job, saving an extra $100k is a pretty easy decision.

Sure, I shouldn't have gone to law school in the first place, but this is the best I can do toward that end.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Jumping ship, everyone. Just got rejected from my last callback (0/3). Using the next few days to decide whether or not to drop out of law school.

I wish better luck to everyone still here.


School range?

Sorry to hear. Best of luck.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:21 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Jumping ship, everyone. Just got rejected from my last callback (0/3). Using the next few days to decide whether or not to drop out of law school.

I wish better luck to everyone still here.


School range?

Sorry to hear. Best of luck.


T6 transfer [Not to panic anyone; my social skills suck]. I'm considering staying around, just because my undergrad is completely no-name and having a degree from a reputable institution might help going forward, but my job search is completely non-legal at this point.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:57 pm

Personally, I would not drop out for two reasons.

First, you still have a shot at a firm job. Go nuts with resumes. There are a few biglaw firms still hiring, but more importantly midlaw/small law is just starting the hiring process.

Second, you are going to have a CCN degree so you will likely be competitive for non-profit and government work. Additionally, if you have the grades you might be able to snag a clerkship and get another shot at the biglaw lottery.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Jumping ship, everyone. Just got rejected from my last callback (0/3). Using the next few days to decide whether or not to drop out of law school.

I wish better luck to everyone still here.


School range?

Sorry to hear. Best of luck.


T6 transfer [Not to panic anyone; my social skills suck]. I'm considering staying around, just because my undergrad is completely no-name and having a degree from a reputable institution might help going forward, but my job search is completely non-legal at this point.


Have you been bugging your CSO? I know they get a lot of crap, but by bugging mine, I got a BigLaw job lead that turned into an offer. They're more plugged in then you think if you know how to ask the right questions. (Believe me, I went in there multiple times and never got told to "network"). Also if you're at CLS/NYU, send stuff out to NJ firms ASAP.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:13 pm

Just an update, I'm now 0/11 on callbacks and waiting to hear back from 4 more. I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing wrong. I'm not antisocial, no typos on the resume, top 5% (but secondary, no LR) at regional (T20-30) school. I can't be that bad of an interviewer; I did multiple practice interviews and converted roughly half my screeners into callbacks. Got a rejection today from a callback that I was sure I nailed. Just sent the attorney I thought I best connected with asking for feedback since I'm truly out of ideas.


If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Applied to over 150 firms -- guess I'll apply to the 20 other firms of 10+ attorneys that I didn't send apps to the first time around...

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Well you got 11 callbacks, and I seriously doubt that transferring would have made a difference. Take a look on these boards at how transfers are faring this year.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Well you got 11 callbacks, and I seriously doubt that transferring would have made a difference. Take a look on these boards at how transfers are faring this year.


Transfers at my school DESTROYED OCI. It seemed to work out very well for the people who were coming from Midwest T25s. (as in, they were having trouble trying to decide which V15 offer to take)

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:27 pm

T30. Top 20%. LR. Tons of callbacks. No offers. fuuuuuuck.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Well you got 11 callbacks, and I seriously doubt that transferring would have made a difference. Take a look on these boards at how transfers are faring this year.


Transfers at my school DESTROYED OCI. It seemed to work out very well for the people who were coming from Midwest T25s. (as in, they were having trouble trying to decide which V15 offer to take)


Which school? Transfer at my school did not do very well.

hawkeye22
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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby hawkeye22 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just an update, I'm now 0/11 on callbacks and waiting to hear back from 4 more. I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing wrong. I'm not antisocial, no typos on the resume, top 5% (but secondary, no LR) at regional (T20-30) school. I can't be that bad of an interviewer; I did multiple practice interviews and converted roughly half my screeners into callbacks. Got a rejection today from a callback that I was sure I nailed. Just sent the attorney I thought I best connected with asking for feedback since I'm truly out of ideas.


If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Applied to over 150 firms -- guess I'll apply to the 20 other firms of 10+ attorneys that I didn't send apps to the first time around...


Hang in there.
Last edited by hawkeye22 on Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Well you got 11 callbacks, and I seriously doubt that transferring would have made a difference. Take a look on these boards at how transfers are faring this year.


Transfers at my school DESTROYED OCI. It seemed to work out very well for the people who were coming from Midwest T25s. (as in, they were having trouble trying to decide which V15 offer to take)


Which school? Transfer at my school did not do very well.


I'm shocked to hear that about the midwest T25's, unless you're talking about in the Chi market. I transferred from a T30ish school well outside NYC, targeted NYC in OCI/mailing, and had several interviewers at V50 firms flat out ask "Is that a good school? Because I have no idea." I was assuming that at least some of my lack of success was that, when transfers from worse schools in New England cleaned up.

keg411
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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby keg411 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:28 pm

T6 transfer: PM me. I'm also a transfer/awful interviewer but managed to pull off a BigLawl jerb. Have some tips/tricks.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I stay in school, I'll graduate with roughly 50k (total) of debt. Still seriously considering dropping out and even more seriously regretting not transferring.

Well you got 11 callbacks, and I seriously doubt that transferring would have made a difference. Take a look on these boards at how transfers are faring this year.


Transfers at my school DESTROYED OCI. It seemed to work out very well for the people who were coming from Midwest T25s. (as in, they were having trouble trying to decide which V15 offer to take)


Which school?


CCN

Anonymous User
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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:T30. Top 20%. LR. Tons of callbacks. No offers. fuuuuuuck.


+1...

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm shocked to hear that about the midwest T25's, unless you're talking about in the Chi market.


Mostly Chicago market, but I think NYC and DC too.

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Re: No Offers Yet- All Aboard the USS Worried

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:37 pm

Was about to fall into despair, but got an offer today!!!!!

It was from a CB from a few weeks ago, and I honestly was shocked it came through. For those of you still waiting, try not to lose hope. You just never, ever know with this crap.




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