Drop out?

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Anonymous User
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Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:15 pm

OCI was a bust. Looking at graduating from T14 with 190k in debt, including UG. If I leave now I can get out with only 35k, including UG. Should I cut my losses now? IBR/LRAP is helpful I'm sure, but it is pretty competitive to get jobs that qualify for that, and I don't really have any strong WE/internships that would help get those jobs (if they even exist, all I hear is that no one hires out of law school/budget cuts/hiring freezes/etc.). Tons of other people are going to strike out too, obviously, and so we'll all be going after same stuff. As far as my "stats" go, I transferred from a school in the 25-50 range, so I did decent enough to get into a T14 (between 5-15%). Feel like I might as well have been at the bottom of my class at Cooley, though, cause the end result seems like it will be the same - unemployed and in tons of debt.

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smokyroom26
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Re: Drop out?

Postby smokyroom26 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:17 pm

Do you want to be a lawyer?

PeanutHead
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Re: Drop out?

Postby PeanutHead » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:18 pm

How are you racking up 155k for just 2 more years?

LoyalRebel
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Re: Drop out?

Postby LoyalRebel » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:19 pm

That... doesn't add up.

You only have 35k debt now, but when you graduate you'll have 190k?? I would guess that you're a rising 2L then (and even then the debt seems disproportionate), and if that's the case I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about striking out in OCI. Seems to me your 1L summer doesn't mean too much.

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California Babe
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Re: Drop out?

Postby California Babe » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:21 pm

People who don't think the debt adds up should visit this link.

de5igual
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Re: Drop out?

Postby de5igual » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:25 pm

California Babe wrote:People who don't think the debt adds up should visit this link.


jebus effin christ :shock:

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smokyroom26
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Re: Drop out?

Postby smokyroom26 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:26 pm

f0bolous wrote:
California Babe wrote:People who don't think the debt adds up should visit this link.


jebus effin christ :shock:


My thoughts exactly

Anonymous User
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:27 pm

OP - t14s are expensive, what can i say. it adds up.

yes, i would like to be a lawyer. i actually enjoy law school, i enjoyed what i did over the summer. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't be happy doing "something else." i just dont want to ruin my life with all this debt and end up making the same amount i could have doing a lot of other things.

all ive ever heard about the legal market is how bad it is, so few people end up with jobs, etc. i thought i had positioned myself well to be one of those few people, turns out it wasn't good enough. what to do...

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smokyroom26
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Re: Drop out?

Postby smokyroom26 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:29 pm

LoyalRebel wrote:That... doesn't add up.

You only have 35k debt now, but when you graduate you'll have 190k?? I would guess that
you're a rising 2L then (and even then the debt seems disproportionate), and if that's the case I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about striking out in OCI. Seems to me your 1L summer doesn't mean too much.


Hiring for 1L summer starts in December of your 1L year. OP is talking about real OCI - hiring for his/her 2L summer - which happens at or just before the beginning of your 2L year.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Bronx Bum » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:30 pm

Drop out 100%

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smokyroom26
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Re: Drop out?

Postby smokyroom26 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP - t14s are expensive, what can i say. it adds up.

yes, i would like to be a lawyer. i actually enjoy law school, i enjoyed what i did over the summer. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't be happy doing "something else." i just dont want to ruin my life with all this debt and end up making the same amount i could have doing a lot of other things.

all ive ever heard about the legal market is how bad it is, so few people end up with jobs, etc. i thought i had positioned myself well to be one of those few people, turns out it wasn't good enough. what to do...


Have you exhausted non-OCI avenues? Mass mailing like a sonofabitch? Going through your alumni lists and networking your pants off? There are other routes to jerbs, and if you really want to be a lawyer, surely you can motivate yourself to find one. Get off TLS, stop reading ATL for a little bit, and go talk to CSO. It will be difficult, but you can do it.

If you were to drop out, do you have a backup plan? What would you do? You'd have to be trained for that new thing, too - would you have to go back to a different type of school, or do you have preexisting skills?

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Bronx Bum
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Bronx Bum » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:35 pm

smokyroom26 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP - t14s are expensive, what can i say. it adds up.

yes, i would like to be a lawyer. i actually enjoy law school, i enjoyed what i did over the summer. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't be happy doing "something else." i just dont want to ruin my life with all this debt and end up making the same amount i could have doing a lot of other things.

all ive ever heard about the legal market is how bad it is, so few people end up with jobs, etc. i thought i had positioned myself well to be one of those few people, turns out it wasn't good enough. what to do...


Have you exhausted non-OCI avenues? Mass mailing like a sonofabitch? Going through your alumni lists and networking your pants off? There are other routes to jerbs, and if you really want to be a lawyer, surely you can motivate yourself to find one. Get off TLS, stop reading ATL for a little bit, and go talk to CSO. It will be difficult, but you can do it.

If you were to drop out, do you have a backup plan? What would you do? You'd have to be trained for that new thing, too - would you have to go back to a different type of school, or do you have preexisting skills?


That stuff doesn't work. If you don't have someone who can hook up up with a jerb, drop out---->hotdog stand. Learn how to lay tile. Do something that will earn you a decent living.

Anonymous User
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:35 pm

Two things.

First, it's not even September yet. Yes, your odds of landing at a Vault firm are slim, but there's still time to mass mail every firm that hires summers in the region(s) you are targeting. The T14 students I know who really hustled to find summer associate positions after striking out at OCI did surprisingly well. If you're willing to spend the time to apply to dozens (or hundreds) of firms with non-generic cover letters, I think the odds are in your favor. Sure, these firms aren't as "prestigious" or whatever, but you'll still earn a good income. You need to start now though. As in, this second.

Second, you really need to ask yourself whether or not you want to be a lawyer. The T14 students I know who entered 3L without firm jobs lined up mostly managed to find respectable legal jobs. Sure, they missed the big law train, but they aren't destined for a miserable life of contract work either. They will earn decent money (although bad for the amount of debt they often have) and have somewhat interesting work, which isn't a terrible outcome if actually being a lawyer interests you. If, on the other hand, you just came for the money, then you should probably get out now.

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Doritos
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Doritos » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:37 pm

smokyroom26 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP - t14s are expensive, what can i say. it adds up.

yes, i would like to be a lawyer. i actually enjoy law school, i enjoyed what i did over the summer. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't be happy doing "something else." i just dont want to ruin my life with all this debt and end up making the same amount i could have doing a lot of other things.

all ive ever heard about the legal market is how bad it is, so few people end up with jobs, etc. i thought i had positioned myself well to be one of those few people, turns out it wasn't good enough. what to do...


Have you exhausted non-OCI avenues? Mass mailing like a sonofabitch? Going through your alumni lists and networking your pants off? There are other routes to jerbs, and if you really want to be a lawyer, surely you can motivate yourself to find one. Get off TLS, stop reading ATL for a little bit, and go talk to CSO. It will be difficult, but you can do it.

If you were to drop out, do you have a backup plan? What would you do? You'd have to be trained for that new thing, too - would you have to go back to a different type of school, or do you have preexisting skills?


This seems like a good idea but OP I would recommend you find out when the last day you can get your tuition back is. If you are serious about dropping out, I would exhaust every avenue to gainful employment that you can before whenever that date is and if you are still unsatisfied with your job prospects get out.

Keep in mind that you could possibly still do public service stuff as a lot of them do hiring later on in the game but you are going to need to do everything you can to make your resume look like you are all about public service whether that be govt work or PI work. It's quite competitive especially due to hiring freezes.

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smokyroom26
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Re: Drop out?

Postby smokyroom26 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Two things.

First, it's not even September yet. Yes, your odds of landing at a Vault firm are slim, but there's still time to mass mail every firm that hires summers in the region(s) you are targeting. The T14 students I know who really hustled to find summer associate positions after striking out at OCI did surprisingly well. If you're willing to spend the time to apply to dozens (or hundreds) of firms with non-generic cover letters, I think the odds are in your favor. Sure, these firms aren't as "prestigious" or whatever, but you'll still earn a good income. You need to start now though. As in, this second.

Second, you really need to ask yourself whether or not you want to be a lawyer. The T14 students I know who entered 3L without firm jobs lined up mostly managed to find respectable legal jobs. Sure, they missed the big law train, but they aren't destined for a miserable life of contract work either. They will earn decent money (although bad for the amount of debt they often have) and have somewhat interesting work, which isn't a terrible outcome if actually being a lawyer interests you. If, on the other hand, you just came for the money, then you should probably get out now.


This.

Bronx Bum wrote:That stuff doesn't work.


False. It doesn't work for everyone, but nothing works for everyone. OP's stats are strong. S/he can do it if s/he tries, tries hard, and tries starting right now.

de5igual
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Re: Drop out?

Postby de5igual » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:41 pm

i agree with the above. but add to it—practice your interview skills! clearly, it wasn't your grades that struck you out in OCI.

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smokyroom26
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Re: Drop out?

Postby smokyroom26 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:45 pm

f0bolous wrote:i agree with the above. but add to it—practice your interview skills! clearly, it wasn't your grades that struck you out in OCI.


Excellent point. See if you can set up a mock interview through your CSO and get some feedback.

keg411
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Re: Drop out?

Postby keg411 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:48 pm

OP, are you 100% sure you struck out and have received a ding from every firm? Or do you have one or two CB's and are just disappointed? Because if you have a couple, you can still convert them to offers. Also, you need to talk to your Career Services office on Monday just to make sure it really is all over before you decide to drop out. You should also talk to your family.

Yes, it stinks but it really isn't all over unless you've been rejected from everywhere.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:53 pm

California Babe wrote:People who don't think the debt adds up should visit this link.


Why would anyone go to Berkeley anymore? You pay more money for worse job prospects than the rest of the T10 schools.

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Heartford
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Heartford » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:21 pm

California Babe wrote:People who don't think the debt adds up should visit this link.


Those figures also seem conservative to me- $10,782 for a year of rent in the Bay Area? UConn's rent allocation is $9,180. Something tells me that the difference in rent between an apartment in the Hartford area and one in Berkeley is a littttttle more than $1600/year.
Last edited by Heartford on Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:26 pm

I'm in the same boat, OP. Top 10 student at a mid-T1, transferred to a better school in the market I wanted to be in, had some great OCIs (amidst a half-dozen or so not so great ones), and still got far less callbacks than I would have got if I hadn't transferred at all (and in fact from exactly the same firms).

If you know that law is what you want to do, like everyone else said, get in touch with career services first thing in the morning and start working out a plan. While it's not too late, time is of the essence, and you need to get on it right away.

If you have sincere doubts regarding your desire to pursue a legal career, the decision is a much more difficult one to make. Take a step back. You know your personal situation and non-legal career options far better than any of us do. Don't drop out from pure OCI-disappointment unless it's fairly clear that you have a better shot at a career you'd rather be in.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Anonymous User
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Re: Drop out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:35 pm

smokyroom26 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP - t14s are expensive, what can i say. it adds up.

yes, i would like to be a lawyer. i actually enjoy law school, i enjoyed what i did over the summer. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't be happy doing "something else." i just dont want to ruin my life with all this debt and end up making the same amount i could have doing a lot of other things.

all ive ever heard about the legal market is how bad it is, so few people end up with jobs, etc. i thought i had positioned myself well to be one of those few people, turns out it wasn't good enough. what to do...


Have you exhausted non-OCI avenues? Mass mailing like a sonofabitch? Going through your alumni lists and networking your pants off? There are other routes to jerbs, and if you really want to be a lawyer, surely you can motivate yourself to find one. Get off TLS, stop reading ATL for a little bit, and go talk to CSO. It will be difficult, but you can do it.

If you were to drop out, do you have a backup plan? What would you do? You'd have to be trained for that new thing, too - would you have to go back to a different type of school, or do you have preexisting skills?


i have no preexisting skills. i am apparently somewhat good at taking law school exams, that is all. i dont have a backup plan other than "try and find something else, be glad you aren't swimming in debt."

i have mass mailed but have received very few positive responses. i could probably send some stuff out to smaller firms, but i worry about that not leading to any sort of permanent employment. that is really my main concern, because i'm sure i can find SOMETHING for next summer, its just whether it is going to translate to permanent employment.

Anonymous User wrote:Two things.

First, it's not even September yet. Yes, your odds of landing at a Vault firm are slim, but there's still time to mass mail every firm that hires summers in the region(s) you are targeting. The T14 students I know who really hustled to find summer associate positions after striking out at OCI did surprisingly well. If you're willing to spend the time to apply to dozens (or hundreds) of firms with non-generic cover letters, I think the odds are in your favor. Sure, these firms aren't as "prestigious" or whatever, but you'll still earn a good income. You need to start now though. As in, this second.

Second, you really need to ask yourself whether or not you want to be a lawyer. The T14 students I know who entered 3L without firm jobs lined up mostly managed to find respectable legal jobs. Sure, they missed the big law train, but they aren't destined for a miserable life of contract work either. They will earn decent money (although bad for the amount of debt they often have) and have somewhat interesting work, which isn't a terrible outcome if actually being a lawyer interests you. If, on the other hand, you just came for the money, then you should probably get out now.


i could probably hustle a bit more, but the truth is my only ties are to a major market and any secondary markets i have interviewed with have looked at me like, "Why are you wasting my time?" still want to be a lawyer, but im not going to ruin my life to do it.

f0bolous wrote:i agree with the above. but add to it—practice your interview skills! clearly, it wasn't your grades that struck you out in OCI.


i admittedly probably suck at interviewing. i THOUGHT they went well, but based on my results i have to agree that im probably worse than i think. i know im not GREAT, im probably just average.

keg411 wrote:OP, are you 100% sure you struck out and have received a ding from every firm? Or do you have one or two CB's and are just disappointed? Because if you have a couple, you can still convert them to offers. Also, you need to talk to your Career Services office on Monday just to make sure it really is all over before you decide to drop out. You should also talk to your family.

Yes, it stinks but it really isn't all over unless you've been rejected from everywhere.


talked to family, they are kinda wishy washy but would support whatever i did im sure. career services likely will tell feed me some nonsense so that i'll stay. trying to take what they say with a grain of salt.

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kurla88
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Re: Drop out?

Postby kurla88 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:48 pm

Dude, it's AUGUST. I didn't get my offer last year (secondary market) till October. I don't think my callback was till October either. Do you have any connections to smaller markets? Even the main markets are hardly done interviewing and hiring yet.

keg411
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Re: Drop out?

Postby keg411 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:55 pm

By "talk to career services" I mean far more than a "can I get a job" talk. I mean bug them to see if they can get some feedback on the firms you interviewed with to figure out what went wrong. Make an appointment for every day of the next week and spend every moment of your free time trying to fix what went wrong at OCI. Many people complain about Career Services, but they don't want to see students jobless. I personally screwed up OCI and I know it was my own fault and now I have to be as proactive as possible about fixing it.

However, if your family is wishy-washy and unsupportive, then you have your work cut out for you, and I'd lean towards dropping out. (Again, only if you 100% struck out and have no possibilities left of getting a paying summer job).

traydeuce
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Re: Drop out?

Postby traydeuce » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:02 pm

This happened to me last year.; I transferred from W&L to GULC and struck out at OCI. I never contemplated what you're contemplating, but it was somewhat disappointing, to say the least. First of all, you may get a job via mass mailing. I know a lot of transfers who ended up with Vault firms through mass mailing. I did not, as I did very little of it. But say you don't. If you do very well this year, you have some chances. I ended up in the top 1% at Georgetown and now I'm a very competitive clerkship candidate. In addition, I stand a chance of getting some offers from firms whether or not I clerk. If you were in the top 5% of a t25, or even top 10%, you'll continue to do well at your new school. It's not that huge a jump in talent, and writing exams only gets easier.




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