Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i chose a V50 over a V10 last year and had the best summer ever at my firm. I wouldn't consider working for a V10 ever. Our summers all went home at reasonable hours (5:30 pm) and had no weekend work (we also have a 100% offer rate, so this changes things a bit), while friends at "higher" ranked firms worked late at night. I know that Debevoise kept summers until 10 or 11, and a friend at another firm worked until 5:30 am and then had to be back in the office at 8:30. There were many more examples like this.

And before you comment....no, it wasn't self imposed. The associates kept them there.


Corp or lit? If corp, then your firm didn't give you real work. I worked some long hours at a V5, because an associate needed my work product and didn't have time to do work he assigned me. When you actually start practicing, people aren't going to cover for you the way they obviously did at your firm.


This actually leads to another question I had in mind.

I will probably choose between a V10, a V30 and V70 by the end of the summer. I'm hoping for the V10 because Chambers gave them the highest ranking for the kind of corporate work I want to pursue. Not to mention, I have already fallen in love with some of the people there. But in terms of quality of life, is the summer at all a good metric to measure how your life as a first year associate will be? I mean, I've been told that summers barely get any work, unless you're working at a V3 (or apparently, a V5), so...I guess my question is kinda directed to the anon user who got out at 5:30pm each day...do you really think that is at all indicative of what life will be like as a first year associate? I highly doubt it. I'm looking to get my hands on substantive work as soon as possible and actually get the experiences of the first year associate so I will know what to expect if, or hopefully when, I decide to work there upon graduation. All these wonderful summer stories sound great...but how great are they when you get back to the firm and it's completely different to your summer? If you land in the V100, you're probably gonna get your ass worked out. Period. Maybe I'm more cautious, but I wouldn't take my summer filled with wining and dining, and 5:30pm clock-outs with free weekends as a reliable indicator as a higher QOL of a first year associate at a particular firm.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:38 am

i think for nyc corporate you really should stick to the vault rankings and just go the highest ranked firm you get into. i think its safe to assume you will leave the firm within 3-4 years and thus this will set u up for the best exit options. im not saying you have to choose a v3 over a v6 if you really liked the people at the v6 better. but to choose a v30 over a v10 for nyc corporate is really dumb i think. its even more dumb to think your experience as a summer will be reflective of a life as a first year.

i was at a v15 and worked past midnight several nights - mainly b/c the firm was super busy and there just werent enough bodies. i had top grades from a top school and was in a position to get a v5 but chose the v15 because i thought it would be more chill. to my chagrin it wasn't at all. i came in on 2 weekends and worked several nights. one day i worked till 3am and had to be in the next day at 8am to receive proofs from the printers. people who think they will have a better quality of life at a lower ranked firm will be highly disappointed. law firms are purposely understaffed - there will always be more than enough work to go around so no matter where you are your qol will suck. if you really care about quality of life you should be looking at support groups like tax, erisa, trust and estates - not the ranking of the firm.

often times in a m&a deal or other corporate transaction you'll have a v50 on opposing counsel from a firm like cravath. if you're on the same deal you will be working just as crazy hours as the other guys. you cant just leave everything for opposing counsel and be like sorry, im just paul hastings and its already 9pm so im going to go home. youll stay there all night with the cravath counsel until the deal closes.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:10 pm

rayiner wrote:If you really want partnership, but don't care where, it's better to start at Cravath.


I know numerous interviewers at V50 callbacks who lateraled from Cravath after 3-5 years of working there because they realized they liked working at a big firm but wanted a better culture/life. I had one senior associate (not seeking partnership) explicitly tell me that "the big secret no one tells you" is that numerous people go to V10s (including this person) only to lateral to a lower-ranked firm a few years later, at two major disadvantages: (1) they now don't know anyone because they hadn't summered there originally, and (2) partnership prospects more at risk because they aren't home-grown and now lack a strong network.

If you start paying attention to this, you will notice the sheer quantity of associates AND partners at V50/V100 firms who started at V10 firms and left after a few years. As my interviewer did, many will tell you quite frankly to dodge that bullet from the start rather than do what they did.

User avatar
FlightoftheEarls
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i think for nyc corporate you really should stick to the vault rankings and just go the highest ranked firm you get into. i think its safe to assume you will leave the firm within 3-4 years and thus this will set u up for the best exit options. im not saying you have to choose a v3 over a v6 if you really liked the people at the v6 better. but to choose a v30 over a v10 for nyc corporate is really dumb i think.

There are plenty of V50 firms dominating several V15 firms in the M&A league tables. Corporate is such a broad descriptor that this statement is far too vague. Especially if you're talking about specialized practice groups within corporate departments, like project finance.

Don't use Vault. Seriously. Just say no. Chambers all the way.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby rayiner » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you really want partnership, but don't care where, it's better to start at Cravath.


I know numerous interviewers at V50 callbacks who lateraled from Cravath after 3-5 years of working there because they realized they liked working at a big firm but wanted a better culture/life. I had one senior associate (not seeking partnership) explicitly tell me that "the big secret no one tells you" is that numerous people go to V10s (including this person) only to lateral to a lower-ranked firm a few years later, at two major disadvantages: (1) they now don't know anyone because they hadn't summered there originally, and (2) partnership prospects more at risk because they aren't home-grown and now lack a strong network.

If you start paying attention to this, you will notice the sheer quantity of associates AND partners at V50/V100 firms who started at V10 firms and left after a few years. As my interviewer did, many will tell you quite frankly to dodge that bullet from the start rather than do what they did.


Did they lateral to an NYC V50 for better QOL? If a different market, then not an even comparison...

Also: lateraling for improved QOL is obviously not the same as lateraling for partnership prospects. Many firms don't give preference to home grown associates (though many do). Partnership is a long shot anywhere, but locking yourself into one market by going to a regional firm increases the influence of pure chance. And firm ranking does matter for laterals. See the ATL ad a few months ago that was looking for only Cravath/Wachtell associates.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i chose a V50 over a V10 last year and had the best summer ever at my firm. I wouldn't consider working for a V10 ever. Our summers all went home at reasonable hours (5:30 pm) and had no weekend work (we also have a 100% offer rate, so this changes things a bit), while friends at "higher" ranked firms worked late at night. I know that Debevoise kept summers until 10 or 11, and a friend at another firm worked until 5:30 am and then had to be back in the office at 8:30. There were many more examples like this.

And before you comment....no, it wasn't self imposed. The associates kept them there.


Corp or lit? If corp, then your firm didn't give you real work. I worked some long hours at a V5, because an associate needed my work product and didn't have time to do work he assigned me. When you actually start practicing, people aren't going to cover for you the way they obviously did at your firm.


It was lit. And no one "covered" for anyone. The corporate associates worked hard and long hours, but the corporate summers were treated much differently. I didn't say anything about associate life - I said SUMMER associate life. Reading comp fail on your part, my friend.

ruski
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby ruski » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you really want partnership, but don't care where, it's better to start at Cravath.


I know numerous interviewers at V50 callbacks who lateraled from Cravath after 3-5 years of working there because they realized they liked working at a big firm but wanted a better culture/life. I had one senior associate (not seeking partnership) explicitly tell me that "the big secret no one tells you" is that numerous people go to V10s (including this person) only to lateral to a lower-ranked firm a few years later, at two major disadvantages: (1) they now don't know anyone because they hadn't summered there originally, and (2) partnership prospects more at risk because they aren't home-grown and now lack a strong network.I know numerous interviewers at V50 callbacks who lateraled from Cravath after 3-5 years of working there because they realized they liked working at a big firm but wanted a better culture/life. I had one senior associate (not seeking partnership) explicitly tell me that "the big secret no one tells you" is that numerous people go to V10s (including this person) only to lateral to a lower-ranked firm a few years later, at two major disadvantages: (1) they now don't know anyone because they hadn't summered there originally, and (2) partnership prospects more at risk because they aren't home-grown and now lack a strong network.

If you start paying attention to this, you will notice the sheer quantity of associates AND partners at V50/V100 firms who started at V10 firms and left after a few years. As my interviewer did, many will tell you quite frankly to dodge that bullet from the start rather than do what they did.


the only problem with this is that several pple have no idea whether they will like firm life, many just dont have what it takes to make partner, and others aren't willing to make the sacrifices - however you don't know this until you've worked for 2-3 years. that's why its better to just go to the best ranked firm to have your exit options maximized. better to start out at cravath and find out you hate law than start out at strook and realize you hate it.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:37 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i think for nyc corporate you really should stick to the vault rankings and just go the highest ranked firm you get into. i think its safe to assume you will leave the firm within 3-4 years and thus this will set u up for the best exit options. im not saying you have to choose a v3 over a v6 if you really liked the people at the v6 better. but to choose a v30 over a v10 for nyc corporate is really dumb i think.

There are plenty of V50 firms dominating several V15 firms in the M&A league tables. Corporate is such a broad descriptor that this statement is far too vague. Especially if you're talking about specialized practice groups within corporate departments, like project finance.

Don't use Vault. Seriously. Just say no. Chambers all the way.


this is a valid point. but i was more referring to kids generally interested in corporate. few law students before ever stepping foot in a corporate law firm, can really say they have their hearts set on project finance, or transportation finance or whatever and nothing else. if you are one of those lucky few than by all means go to a v30 that kills in project finance. but for a majority of corporate folk who will end up in general corporate m&a or securities, they should really go to a v10 if given the chance.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i chose a V50 over a V10 last year and had the best summer ever at my firm. I wouldn't consider working for a V10 ever. Our summers all went home at reasonable hours (5:30 pm) and had no weekend work (we also have a 100% offer rate, so this changes things a bit), while friends at "higher" ranked firms worked late at night. I know that Debevoise kept summers until 10 or 11, and a friend at another firm worked until 5:30 am and then had to be back in the office at 8:30. There were many more examples like this.

And before you comment....no, it wasn't self imposed. The associates kept them there.


Corp or lit? If corp, then your firm didn't give you real work. I worked some long hours at a V5, because an associate needed my work product and didn't have time to do work he assigned me. When you actually start practicing, people aren't going to cover for you the way they obviously did at your firm.


It was lit. And no one "covered" for anyone. The corporate associates worked hard and long hours, but the corporate summers were treated much differently. I didn't say anything about associate life - I said SUMMER associate life. Reading comp fail on your part, my friend.


You can't compare corp and lit. No summers in lit get assignments that actually have time pressure, even at a V5. Its different in corp. And if corporate summers at your firm didn't have to ever stay late and nobody covered for them then they didn't get real work. Even within the V5 only Cravath really drives its SAS like first year associates. But if you're getting assignments people are actually using in corp, then staying late at least a few times is inevitable. Even though otherwise the hours might be quite low. Which I'd imagine was the case at Debevoise, from what I know of the firm.

User avatar
FlightoftheEarls
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i think for nyc corporate you really should stick to the vault rankings and just go the highest ranked firm you get into. i think its safe to assume you will leave the firm within 3-4 years and thus this will set u up for the best exit options. im not saying you have to choose a v3 over a v6 if you really liked the people at the v6 better. but to choose a v30 over a v10 for nyc corporate is really dumb i think.

There are plenty of V50 firms dominating several V15 firms in the M&A league tables. Corporate is such a broad descriptor that this statement is far too vague. Especially if you're talking about specialized practice groups within corporate departments, like project finance.

Don't use Vault. Seriously. Just say no. Chambers all the way.


this is a valid point. but i was more referring to kids generally interested in corporate. few law students before ever stepping foot in a corporate law firm, can really say they have their hearts set on project finance, or transportation finance or whatever and nothing else. if you are one of those lucky few than by all means go to a v30 that kills in project finance. but for a majority of corporate folk who will end up in general corporate m&a or securities, they should really go to a v10 if given the chance.

That's fair, although I would still suggest that Chambers will do just as good of a job for this. Chambers' rankings for Capital Markets: Debt/Equity and Corporate/M&A are fairly similar to the general Vault rankings at the very top, although both include several firms that generally outperform what their Vault ranking would suggest. There are also some V15 firms that underperform in large groups like M&A, despite what their Vault ranking may suggest.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273311
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Anyone else feel like higher ranked firm = crappier this OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you really want partnership, but don't care where, it's better to start at Cravath.


I know numerous interviewers at V50 callbacks who lateraled from Cravath after 3-5 years of working there because they realized they liked working at a big firm but wanted a better culture/life. I had one senior associate (not seeking partnership) explicitly tell me that "the big secret no one tells you" is that numerous people go to V10s (including this person) only to lateral to a lower-ranked firm a few years later, at two major disadvantages: (1) they now don't know anyone because they hadn't summered there originally, and (2) partnership prospects more at risk because they aren't home-grown and now lack a strong network.

If you start paying attention to this, you will notice the sheer quantity of associates AND partners at V50/V100 firms who started at V10 firms and left after a few years. As my interviewer did, many will tell you quite frankly to dodge that bullet from the start rather than do what they did.


Did they lateral to an NYC V50 for better QOL? If a different market, then not an even comparison...

Also: lateraling for improved QOL is obviously not the same as lateraling for partnership prospects. Many firms don't give preference to home grown associates (though many do). Partnership is a long shot anywhere, but locking yourself into one market by going to a regional firm increases the influence of pure chance. And firm ranking does matter for laterals. See the ATL ad a few months ago that was looking for only Cravath/Wachtell associates.


Sorry, I should've specified - what I wrote was entirely specific to NYC.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.