Feeling Extremely Down

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:06 am

In terms of transfers, look at it from the interviewer's perspective. When the interviewer sees you on campus at new school, you've just arrived yourself. You've taken no classes at new school, you've participated in no journals/student activities at new school, you've worked with no professors at new school. The interviewer really has no choice but to evaluate you as a student from old school. Sure, new school may get you in the room with some interviewers you wouldn't have seen at old school, and if you have a great interview (particularly if it's with a hiring partner or someone else who has authority or doesn't feel constrained about "taking a chance"), you might get some opportunities you wouldn't have gotten at old school. But as a general matter, the 2L OCI benefit of transferring is far less than I think most transfers assume, if there's any benefit at all. And for some, it may even be a detriment - i.e., someone who would have been the clear standout at old school can get lost in the shuffle at new school.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:46 am

OCI for me is essentially over - I've had 16 screeners, 2 rejections, 1 CB.


I can't believe there are 4 pages of replies to this. Seriously? You've heard from less than a fifth of the firms to which you spoke. WTF? What did you expect, an offer on day 1? Seems to me the problem has nothing to do with transfer, and everything to do with reasonable expectations about life.

Chill.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:51 am

NZA wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
NZA wrote:
areyouinsane wrote:I also would strongly recommend not putting your eggs in the IBR basket. The government could easily slash that program, or bury its repeal in some other bill or law. It looks more and more likely that Obama is a goner, so who knows what batshit "austerity" awaits in the budgets to come? They already screwed grad students over in the debt ceiling deal last month.

I doubt they'll get rid of IBR in the near future...that would just be insane. And if they do, I'm willing to bet T14 LRAPs will find a way to help their grads.

...I hope...


That is a really naive view. We're not talking about social security and welfare here. There was no IBR just a few years ago. It will go and it will go quickly. Subsidies for law students are not high on the country's agenda.

IIRC, IBR isn't just for law school loans, it's for anyone with a fed student loan working in government. :|



Look law schools peddle two things: BIGLAW and IBR. Kind of like the U.S. economy: there are two extremes-the rich and those that are on some form of welfare. I am pretty sure that America will agree that neither law students nor any other students should have their loan payments covered by tax payers.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:56 am

I give up.

While there may be some truth in what people like areyouinsane are posting, its the EXCEPTION and not the RULE.


The RULE is that when you strike out at OCI you need to change your entire perspective on things; you wont be the EXCEPTION that gets a biglaw job outside of OCI somehow.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:
OCI for me is essentially over - I've had 16 screeners, 2 rejections, 1 CB.


I can't believe there are 4 pages of replies to this. Seriously? You've heard from less than a fifth of the firms to which you spoke. WTF? What did you expect, an offer on day 1? Seems to me the problem has nothing to do with transfer, and everything to do with reasonable expectations about life.

Chill.


Yeah I realize it may be a little early to throw in the towel but when most of the firms you haven't heard from have extended CBs it's a little discouraging.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:
OCI for me is essentially over - I've had 16 screeners, 2 rejections, 1 CB.


I can't believe there are 4 pages of replies to this. Seriously? You've heard from less than a fifth of the firms to which you spoke. WTF? What did you expect, an offer on day 1? Seems to me the problem has nothing to do with transfer, and everything to do with reasonable expectations about life.

Chill.


I dunno, I had OCI last week -- and I had 15 screeners and 6 callbacks, 7 dings -- the 2 outstanding are almost certainly dings on the way. The 6 callbacks all came next day or two days later. It is a reasonable response to feel that radio silence is not a great sign...BUT:

The other half of it is this...I got all but one of my callbacks on day 2-3 of OCI (from day 1-2 screeners) -- After that, I had one more on day 4 -- then my phone didn't ring for another *week*. This past week, the initial high of a 6/9 start turned into a bit of a low as I marched on towards 6/13 (which I'm sure will end up 6/15) -- I went on two callbacks, and the weekend almost came without the phone ringing. Friday afternoon came -- a mass mail turned into a screener -- not the greatest news (any other call would have been an offer or another callback) -- but good news all the same. I hadn't been off the phone for five minutes when one of my callbacks rang me up with an offer.

The reason I post the way my week went emotionally is to show that there ARE ups and downs. Even with 4CBs outstanding, my own perceived failure at the second half of OCI and the first two callbacks really did start to eat at me. It was totally counterproductive. I still had very good (but by no means guaranteed) prospects, but i convinced myself that I was in the middle of striking out. A phone call later, and everything just seems very different -- I'm in a bit of control, I can enjoy my expensive lunches -- I won't feel like every CB is make or break -- I may even have a choice between offers if all goes well. This process is nuts -- just stay positive and always expect to knock the next one out of the park.

tl;dr version: Buck up -- this is an emotionally draining process -- you need to stay 100% "on" to continue to make the most of it

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:51 am

The RULE is that when you strike out at OCI you need to change your entire perspective on things; you wont be the EXCEPTION that gets a biglaw job outside of OCI somehow.



Indeed. Gotta really LOL at the clowns who think "mass mail" and other nonsense will be a backdoor way into Biglaw. Do you really think that in this gruesome economy the firms have squads of associates plowing thru mountains of unsolicited resumes? Do you realize how many clowns from Hofstra, Brooklyn, Cooley, 'Bozo and the other TTToilets are pulling this crap too? They probably just shovel this junk mail into the furnace the same way you do with your own "junk mail." Maybe have an entry level secretary schlep out some "no thanks" ding letters, but not much more.

Here's the straight dope: If you strike out at OCI/callbacks, step #1 is to seriously ask yourself if it's worth dumping another 1.5 or 2 years into this debacle to end up in doc review or 35 K a year shitlaw, which is pretty much all that's left out there.

Step #2 is to start scouring craigslist and lawjobs for small offices and solos where you can start working NOW to learn a thing or two about the real world. Forget attending classes and studying- the "grades" lottery was already held, and you lost. Toss that ticket in the trash and scrape by with C's from here out, since it won't matter for shitlaw/doc review gigs anyway. Just do the bare-ass minimum not to flunk out and learn as much as you can.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:04 pm

Step #2 is to start scouring craigslist and lawjobs for small offices and solos where you can start working NOW to learn a thing or two about the real world. Forget attending classes and studying- the "grades" lottery was already held, and you lost. Toss that ticket in the trash and scrape by with C's from here out, since it won't matter for shitlaw/doc review gigs anyway. Just do the bare-ass minimum not to flunk out and learn as much as you can.


This is soooooo credited. The mindset about doubling down and working harder in school and putting all focus on 2L and 3L and some stupid worthless secondary journal is where people fuck up. Some guy with no journal and a lot of office experience is going to snag a small law job ahead of you at graduation. Small law doesnt care about journals, they care about people who can perform quickly without much instruction. Journals dont help that but actual small law job experience does.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:15 pm

I transferred to CCN last year from a fairly well respected T1 school. Although I would agree with people on this board that transfers, on average, were more likely to get V100 SA positions than non-transfers, I would also point out that a lot of transfers struck out. Especially after going through 3L OCI just now and seeing all of the other transfers there who admitted that they couldn’t get 2L SA gigs, I would guess that the strikeout rate for transfers in my class was about 20-25%. Hey, that’s still better than the roughly 40% strikeout rate for non-transfers, but is it worth taking out an enormous amount of money to trade up for the higher-ranked school? Had I stayed at my old school, I would have graduated with basically no debt…

So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.

OP, I feel for you since I went through pretty much the same thing. Watching people with essentially the same credentials as you (or WAY shittier credentials pre-ITE) win the BigLaw lottery while you’re staring down a future of at best shitlaw/doc review coupled with massive debt is one of the most depressing things that I can imagine. As areyouinsane points out, there aren’t a lot of alternatives out there for entry-level lawyers who miss the BigLaw boat. The government has no money to hire new/inexperienced lawyers and is increasingly expecting them to work for free. Judges are increasingly hiring clerks with several years of legal experience, and credentials that in the past could have gotten you a 2nd, 7th, or 9th circuit clerkship won’t even get you a federal district court clerkship today. I ended getting grades this past year that place me pretty far up into the top 1/3 of my class, and so far barely any places will even get back to me for an interview.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:33 pm

So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.


A sad and unfortunate but credited post. The schools are all about taking your money. Anytime anyone from the school gives you any kind of advice, do the opposite, because they are acting in their self interest, not yours. "Spend time mass mailing for positions." WRONG. Time would be better spent finding a paralegal gig so when you get out of school you can at least say you have legal experience. "Work to keep those grades up for 3L OCI". WRONG. No one ever got a job at 3L OCI, so stop chasing the unreachable. Find a job for now.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.

What's wrong with bidding on Skadden? I know a couple transfers from T1s and low T2s that scored CBs there.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.

What's wrong with bidding on Skadden? I know a couple transfers from T1s and low T2s that scored CBs there.


Were they first in their class at their old school? I was top 5% at my old school but barely, and I figured that my bids would best be spent outside of the V10. I know a lot of transfers that landed V11-V50 but very few that landed V10. Out of the ones that did land V10, pretty much all of them did their first year at a lower T14.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:51 pm

Why would you want to work at Skadden anyway?

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Were they first in their class at their old school? I was top 5% at my old school but barely, and I figured that my bids would best be spent outside of the V10. I know a lot of transfers that landed V11-V50 but very few that landed V10. Out of the ones that did land V10, pretty much all of them did their first year at a lower T14.


I know people who transferred from middling T1s, weren't even in the top 10% or were just barely there, and got an offer from Skadden.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.

What's wrong with bidding on Skadden? I know a couple transfers from T1s and low T2s that scored CBs there.


Were they first in their class at their old school? I was top 5% at my old school but barely, and I figured that my bids would best be spent outside of the V10. I know a lot of transfers that landed V11-V50 but very few that landed V10. Out of the ones that did land V10, pretty much all of them did their first year at a lower T14.


Around 20% of the transfers at my school ended up at V10 firms, and most of those people transferred from outside the lower t-14. Plus, I know at least two of last years 3L transfers who failed to get 2L SA's actually ended up getting offers from NY V5 firms through 3L OCI. I am a transfer at Chicago, however, and they take a hell of a lot less transfers than Columbia and NYU (as far as I know), so maybe that has something to do with it. I am fairly certain I would have been screwed had I stayed at my old school because I didn't make law review, and my grades weren't even that good. Transferring gave me a huge boosty boost.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:06 pm

This is soooooo credited. The mindset about doubling down and working harder in school and putting all focus on 2L and 3L and some stupid worthless secondary journal is where people fuck up. Some guy with no journal and a lot of office experience is going to snag a small law job ahead of you at graduation. Small law doesnt care about journals, they care about people who can perform quickly without much instruction. Journals dont help that but actual small law job experience does.



Exactly. For example, at the shitlaw personal injury firm I worked at, you are sent to court the very first day of work with no guidance or instruction whatsoever. Sure it was only a preliminary conference and a motion that stipped out, but understand that no one has the time or inclination for hand holding & formal training in shitlaw. You're just thrown to the wolves & it's sink or swim.

At this shitlaw office the partners were very macho and viewed asking questions as a sign of weakness/incompetence. The trial partner even told me he "doesn't like being asked a million questions" and mocking shit like "are you suckling babies gonna come in here every 5 minutes and say "Mr. Partner, my pen ran out of ink- should I get a new one?" He said "learn by doing."

I was stuck in front of the notorious NY County Judge Ira Gammerman (known as Get 'Em Picked Gammerman" one day and a case we wanted to adjourn of course wasn't. I called the office to say I'd be gone all afternoon as we were slated for jury selection at 1 pm. I kinda hinted at like "er, what do I do?" but the partner just said "OK well start picking then" and that was that.

So I had to "wing" it, and actually did OK. My adversary was a nice guy and actually gave me some tips (he was from NYC Law Dept and could've given a shit less about this loser case). That was a good thing, as I had no idea how many preemptory challenges I had, or how to use them, or really how to do anything. I was only admitted to the bar a few weeks earlier and had done nothing before this gig but doc review.

Of course a day or two to learn the law and prepare would be nice, but that's a luxury you won't have in shitlaw. Like McDonald's, they make $$$ on volume and there just isn't any time to properly prepare or work up a file. You just have to wing it and hope for the best, and get whatever $$$ you can before moving on to the next case.

Given the above, try and find a shitlaw place that will let you shadow some lawyers in shitcourt and spend as much time at the office as possible and "learn the ropes" before bar admission. It really will help a lot getting that first personal injury, landlord tenant, or other shitlaw gig. This is a far better use of your time & effort than writing on to Sports Law Journal or some other joke law review wanna-be rag and studying the 2 L bullshit, which is 10 X more boring than first year. Treat your shitlaw internship like a full time job and avoid even going to class or studying altogether. It's almost impossible to get lower than a C- in any lawschool class, even if you don't study at all. There were 2 and 3 L classes where I literally never went to a single class and couldn't pick the prof. out of a lineup. Just pick up some study ads and cram the night before, toss in some buzzwords, take your C- and say fuck it.

I was downright incredoulous to see 2 and 3 L friends who struck out at OCI still studying balls and outlining like it was first semester of One L. These fools just didn't get it that the contest was over, and no matter how many times they checked their ticket, they didn't have the winning numbers. For shitlaw no one ever asks about grades or where you went to school, because most shitlaw "lawyers" are businessmen first and foremost. They spend 100% of their time networking with runners, designing ads, and hustling for files. They're smart enough to know that the "law" is a joke and can be cut n' pasted by any mouth-breathing monkey. There is no research and absolutley no original writing- every single pleading and motion is pure cut n' paste.

In the extremely rare event that a shitlaw case is worth appealing, the savvy shitlawyer farms it out to a per diem (usually a single mom type or retiree who works from home), gives them the file, and a few hundred bucks later gets it dropped off and filed. There is no time whatsoever for associates to do this type of work, since you're in court every morning & at depositions every afternoon. Shitlaw (esp personal injury work) is a real grind, and exhausting with all the running around etc.

My typical day was getting up at 8 am, shower & suit up, get on subway to court in Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, or Manhattan around 9:15 to 9:30, then running to the 5 or 6 different courtrooms where we had motions or conferences scheduled. You find your case on the calendar outside the courtroom, circle the plaintiff's name, and write your cell # over it so your adversary will know that you are somewhere else and can adjourn it if you can't make it on time or call you to see when you'll be down. Everything is heard on a first-come, first served basis. This isn't "court" like on TV, it's a tiny room with 50 to 100 people reading newspapers, yakking on the phone, talking about last nights Mets game, etc. Most shitlaw motions and conferences are heard by clerks who sit at little card tables. The judge usually never leaves their office- if something is really important you have to ask to see them and get called back there, which can take a loooong time. They are usually very pissed off when things can't be settled or worked out and they have to get involved, so best not to make a habit of bothering them with nonsense.

Usually court wraps up around 11 to 12 noon. Then a quick lunch and off to one of the stenographer offices at Diamond Reporting, Veri-Text, Dietz, or the other shithole broom closets for a deposition. You have to spend at least 1/2 hour prepping the client and getting them ready to answer questions, tell how things happened, etc. Usually they don't speak English so you have to call the office and have secretary interpet via phone while you prep (can't use court interpeter b/c it breaks a/c privilege). Also these "preps" (wink wink) often skirt the boundaries of.... well, let's not go there.

Understand that when you meet the client is the first time you've even heard of their case- as I said, there's no time for preparation or file review or anything like that. You meet them there at the reporter's office, they tell you the story, and then it's off to the races. At most you'll have a copy of the complaint but that's about it.

These depositions are sheer torture, with idiotic questions like "what part of your left foot first came into contact with the puddle of urine you slipped on" and "were you wearing flip-flops or Roman Sandals", shit like that. Then all their medical treatment and aches and pains, etc. Usually the clients fuck up the story since most of them are complete retards, and often they get that "retard anger" after half hour or so and start making threats and calling your adversary a "motherfucker" and just rant that "my shit fucking hurts asshole and I want big money for dis" and so on. Pretty much a complete circus.

Usually after a few cigarettes you limp back to the office by 4 pm, just in time for "calendar meeting" where you get the next day's assignments and scratch together whatever shitpaper documents you need for court. If there's time you make a few phone calls and try to settle some turd cases that the partner left on your desk with a huge "S-ASAP" written in sharpie, which means settle this crap ASAP over the phone for whatever you can get, since it's not worth going the $250 to file a complaint on. Usually you can get $500 or even $750 on these depending on how shitty they are. One we had that was really funny was a homeless lady who walked on foot up to the Wendy's drive-thru window and tripped while getting her food. She got a few bruises and Wendy's forked over $800 bucks to make it go away (they are self-insured so they really don't fight any but the really big claims).

HTH

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.

What's wrong with bidding on Skadden? I know a couple transfers from T1s and low T2s that scored CBs there.


Were they first in their class at their old school? I was top 5% at my old school but barely, and I figured that my bids would best be spent outside of the V10. I know a lot of transfers that landed V11-V50 but very few that landed V10. Out of the ones that did land V10, pretty much all of them did their first year at a lower T14.


Around 20% of the transfers at my school ended up at V10 firms, and most of those people transferred from outside the lower t-14. Plus, I know at least two of last years 3L transfers who failed to get 2L SA's actually ended up getting offers from NY V5 firms through 3L OCI. I am a transfer at Chicago, however, and they take a hell of a lot less transfers than Columbia and NYU (as far as I know), so maybe that has something to do with it. I am fairly certain I would have been screwed had I stayed at my old school because I didn't make law review, and my grades weren't even that good. Transferring gave me a huge boosty boost.


How did the transfers that struck out as 2Ls but that got V5 as 3Ls do during their 2L year? Like top 5%? Top 10%? Top 1/3?

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:10 pm

areyouinsane wrote:
This is soooooo credited. The mindset about doubling down and working harder in school and putting all focus on 2L and 3L and some stupid worthless secondary journal is where people fuck up. Some guy with no journal and a lot of office experience is going to snag a small law job ahead of you at graduation. Small law doesnt care about journals, they care about people who can perform quickly without much instruction. Journals dont help that but actual small law job experience does.



Exactly. For example, at the shitlaw personal injury firm I worked at, you are sent to court the very first day of work with no guidance or instruction whatsoever. Sure it was only a preliminary conference and a motion that stipped out, but understand that no one has the time or inclination for hand holding & formal training in shitlaw. You're just thrown to the wolves & it's sink or swim.

At this shitlaw office the partners were very macho and viewed asking questions as a sign of weakness/incompetence. The trial partner even told me he "doesn't like being asked a million questions" and mocking shit like "are you suckling babies gonna come in here every 5 minutes and say "Mr. Partner, my pen ran out of ink- should I get a new one?" He said "learn by doing."

I was stuck in front of the notorious NY County Judge Ira Gammerman (known as Get 'Em Picked Gammerman" one day and a case we wanted to adjourn of course wasn't. I called the office to say I'd be gone all afternoon as we were slated for jury selection at 1 pm. I kinda hinted at like "er, what do I do?" but the partner just said "OK well start picking then" and that was that.

So I had to "wing" it, and actually did OK. My adversary was a nice guy and actually gave me some tips (he was from NYC Law Dept and could've given a shit less about this loser case). That was a good thing, as I had no idea how many preemptory challenges I had, or how to use them, or really how to do anything. I was only admitted to the bar a few weeks earlier and had done nothing before this gig but doc review.

Of course a day or two to learn the law and prepare would be nice, but that's a luxury you won't have in shitlaw. Like McDonald's, they make $$$ on volume and there just isn't any time to properly prepare or work up a file. You just have to wing it and hope for the best, and get whatever $$$ you can before moving on to the next case.

Given the above, try and find a shitlaw place that will let you shadow some lawyers in shitcourt and spend as much time at the office as possible and "learn the ropes" before bar admission. It really will help a lot getting that first personal injury, landlord tenant, or other shitlaw gig. This is a far better use of your time & effort than writing on to Sports Law Journal or some other joke law review wanna-be rag and studying the 2 L bullshit, which is 10 X more boring than first year. Treat your shitlaw internship like a full time job and avoid even going to class or studying altogether. It's almost impossible to get lower than a C- in any lawschool class, even if you don't study at all. There were 2 and 3 L classes where I literally never went to a single class and couldn't pick the prof. out of a lineup. Just pick up some study ads and cram the night before, toss in some buzzwords, take your C- and say fuck it.

I was downright incredoulous to see 2 and 3 L friends who struck out at OCI still studying balls and outlining like it was first semester of One L. These fools just didn't get it that the contest was over, and no matter how many times they checked their ticket, they didn't have the winning numbers. For shitlaw no one ever asks about grades or where you went to school, because most shitlaw "lawyers" are businessmen first and foremost. They spend 100% of their time networking with runners, designing ads, and hustling for files. They're smart enough to know that the "law" is a joke and can be cut n' pasted by any mouth-breathing monkey. There is no research and absolutley no original writing- every single pleading and motion is pure cut n' paste.

In the extremely rare event that a shitlaw case is worth appealing, the savvy shitlawyer farms it out to a per diem (usually a single mom type or retiree who works from home), gives them the file, and a few hundred bucks later gets it dropped off and filed. There is no time whatsoever for associates to do this type of work, since you're in court every morning & at depositions every afternoon. Shitlaw (esp personal injury work) is a real grind, and exhausting with all the running around etc.

My typical day was getting up at 8 am, shower & suit up, get on subway to court in Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, or Manhattan around 9:15 to 9:30, then running to the 5 or 6 different courtrooms where we had motions or conferences scheduled. You find your case on the calendar outside the courtroom, circle the plaintiff's name, and write your cell # over it so your adversary will know that you are somewhere else and can adjourn it if you can't make it on time or call you to see when you'll be down. Everything is heard on a first-come, first served basis. This isn't "court" like on TV, it's a tiny room with 50 to 100 people reading newspapers, yakking on the phone, talking about last nights Mets game, etc. Most shitlaw motions and conferences are heard by clerks who sit at little card tables. The judge usually never leaves their office- if something is really important you have to ask to see them and get called back there, which can take a loooong time. They are usually very pissed off when things can't be settled or worked out and they have to get involved, so best not to make a habit of bothering them with nonsense.

Usually court wraps up around 11 to 12 noon. Then a quick lunch and off to one of the stenographer offices at Diamond Reporting, Veri-Text, Dietz, or the other shithole broom closets for a deposition. You have to spend at least 1/2 hour prepping the client and getting them ready to answer questions, tell how things happened, etc. Usually they don't speak English so you have to call the office and have secretary interpet via phone while you prep (can't use court interpeter b/c it breaks a/c privilege). Also these "preps" (wink wink) often skirt the boundaries of.... well, let's not go there.

Understand that when you meet the client is the first time you've even heard of their case- as I said, there's no time for preparation or file review or anything like that. You meet them there at the reporter's office, they tell you the story, and then it's off to the races. At most you'll have a copy of the complaint but that's about it.

These depositions are sheer torture, with idiotic questions like "what part of your left foot first came into contact with the puddle of urine you slipped on" and "were you wearing flip-flops or Roman Sandals", shit like that. Then all their medical treatment and aches and pains, etc. Usually the clients fuck up the story since most of them are complete retards, and often they get that "retard anger" after half hour or so and start making threats and calling your adversary a "motherfucker" and just rant that "my shit fucking hurts asshole and I want big money for dis" and so on. Pretty much a complete circus.

Usually after a few cigarettes you limp back to the office by 4 pm, just in time for "calendar meeting" where you get the next day's assignments and scratch together whatever shitpaper documents you need for court. If there's time you make a few phone calls and try to settle some turd cases that the partner left on your desk with a huge "S-ASAP" written in sharpie, which means settle this crap ASAP over the phone for whatever you can get, since it's not worth going the $250 to file a complaint on. Usually you can get $500 or even $750 on these depending on how shitty they are. One we had that was really funny was a homeless lady who walked on foot up to the Wendy's drive-thru window and tripped while getting her food. She got a few bruises and Wendy's forked over $800 bucks to make it go away (they are self-insured so they really don't fight any but the really big claims).

HTH


TL; DR

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:16 pm

OP, I know how you feel. T20, top 10%...no dings...but not cbs either...it's a lonely fucking road right now.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So why did I think it would be okay to take out all that debt? Well, the first thing that my new school did after I was accepted was to put me in touch with career services. My career services representative told me that she was concerned that I wasn’t bidding on Sullivan Cromwell or Skadden (LOL)… I think that this concern was largely expressed to make me think that, by transferring, I was some kind of an all-star that would easily land BigLaw and that I would therefore be able to easily make up for the difference in cost for attending my new school. I had also read a bunch of posts on this forum talking about how CCN transfers virtually never struck out, which may have been true in the past but certainly isn’t today. Lastly, it’s fucking CCN! Based on everything that I had heard from everyone since I was 5 years old, I was under the impression that if you ever get into a professional program like that, you go.

What's wrong with bidding on Skadden? I know a couple transfers from T1s and low T2s that scored CBs there.


Were they first in their class at their old school? I was top 5% at my old school but barely, and I figured that my bids would best be spent outside of the V10. I know a lot of transfers that landed V11-V50 but very few that landed V10. Out of the ones that did land V10, pretty much all of them did their first year at a lower T14.


Nah, more or less the same rank as me (top 10%). Dude didn't even prep for his interviews, just walked right in. What's even funnier is one interviewer asked him why he was interested in the firm, and he turned it around and said, "To be honest, all your websites look the same. Could you tell me what's unique about your firm?"

Another CB there.

Sometimes I don't know what.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How did the transfers that struck out as 2Ls but that got V5 as 3Ls do during their 2L year? Like top 5%? Top 10%? Top 1/3?


I'm fairly sure they were somewhere between top 15-30. I know that's a pretty broad and unhelpful range. I also think 3L OCI might have been a little hotter last year, with firms who hired super conservatively for summer '10 trying to make up for that. The economic climate was obviously a lot more hopeful in Fall '10 than in Fall '11.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How did the transfers that struck out as 2Ls but that got V5 as 3Ls do during their 2L year? Like top 5%? Top 10%? Top 1/3?


I'm fairly sure they were somewhere between top 15-30. I know that's a pretty broad and unhelpful range. I also think 3L OCI might have been a little hotter last year, with firms who hired super conservatively for summer '10 trying to make up for that. The economic climate was obviously a lot more hopeful in Fall '10 than in Fall '11.


Hmm, thanks man. That gives me some hope, as I'm somewhere in that range.

areyouinsane wrote:
These depositions are sheer torture, with idiotic questions like "what part of your left foot first came into contact with the puddle of urine you slipped on" and "were you wearing flip-flops or Roman Sandals", shit like that. Then all their medical treatment and aches and pains, etc. Usually the clients fuck up the story since most of them are complete retards, and often they get that "retard anger" after half hour or so and start making threats and calling your adversary a "motherfucker" and just rant that "my shit fucking hurts asshole and I want big money for dis" and so on. Pretty much a complete circus.


Just laughed outloud pretty hard at the "retard anger" part. To the TL;DR guy, you just missed out on a pretty epic post.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's a school-to-school thing then. I don't think it's unheard of here at my CCN school for a third to half of the transfers to get V10 of V15.


I'm not a transfer, but I've met a few transfers at our OCI (also one of CCN), and they universally seem to feel as if they overbid and are getting slapped down by the selective firms. (And we're talking about people who were top 5-10% at T30 schools, very realistic chance of biglaw had they stayed put.) I think it might be different this year, for whatever reason, and firms have decided they don't like transfers as much as they used to.


Are you at Columbia or NYU? I'm at Chicago, and for the most part, transfers do awesome here. We only have something like 15 transfers this year—2 of them wrote onto our Law Review—and I'm not sure it ever goes over 25 transfers for any given year. Maybe the small number of transfers at UofC compared to the amount at NYU/CLS makes a bigger difference than people would have expected.

It seems like transfers to UofC who target NYC, especially, absolutely kill it. It's not really unheard of for some of those students to get multiple V15 offers. I know that it might make sense on some level for CLS and NYU to take gigantic transfer classes since they are both gigantic schools to start off with anyway, but I can't shake the feeling that it's kind of scary to be part of a 50-person transfer class.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's a school-to-school thing then. I don't think it's unheard of here at my CCN school for a third to half of the transfers to get V10 of V15.


I'm not a transfer, but I've met a few transfers at our OCI (also one of CCN), and they universally seem to feel as if they overbid and are getting slapped down by the selective firms. (And we're talking about people who were top 5-10% at T30 schools, very realistic chance of biglaw had they stayed put.) I think it might be different this year, for whatever reason, and firms have decided they don't like transfers as much as they used to.


Are you at Columbia or NYU? I'm at Chicago, and for the most part, transfers do awesome here. We only have something like 15 transfers this year—2 of them wrote onto our Law Review—and I'm not sure it ever goes over 25 transfers for any given year. Maybe the small number of transfers at UofC compared to the amount at NYU/CLS makes a bigger difference than people would have expected.

It seems like transfers to UofC who target NYC, especially, absolutely kill it. It's not really unheard of for some of those students to get multiple V15 offers. I know that it might make sense on some level for CLS and NYU to take gigantic transfer classes since they are both gigantic schools to start off with anyway, but I can't shake the feeling that it's kind of scary to be part of a 50-person transfer class.


It definitely seems odd to me how the schools with larger law classes in general also take massive transfer classes. To me, that seems like it would make it very difficult for everyone in that class to get decent job, just from a pure numbers perspective.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's a school-to-school thing then. I don't think it's unheard of here at my CCN school for a third to half of the transfers to get V10 of V15.


I'm not a transfer, but I've met a few transfers at our OCI (also one of CCN), and they universally seem to feel as if they overbid and are getting slapped down by the selective firms. (And we're talking about people who were top 5-10% at T30 schools, very realistic chance of biglaw had they stayed put.) I think it might be different this year, for whatever reason, and firms have decided they don't like transfers as much as they used to.


Are you at Columbia or NYU? I'm at Chicago, and for the most part, transfers do awesome here. We only have something like 15 transfers this year—2 of them wrote onto our Law Review—and I'm not sure it ever goes over 25 transfers for any given year. Maybe the small number of transfers at UofC compared to the amount at NYU/CLS makes a bigger difference than people would have expected.

It seems like transfers to UofC who target NYC, especially, absolutely kill it. It's not really unheard of for some of those students to get multiple V15 offers. I know that it might make sense on some level for CLS and NYU to take gigantic transfer classes since they are both gigantic schools to start off with anyway, but I can't shake the feeling that it's kind of scary to be part of a 50-person transfer class.


It definitely seems odd to me how the schools with larger law classes in general also take massive transfer classes. To me, that seems like it would make it very difficult for everyone in that class to get decent job, just from a pure numbers perspective.



They dont really care whether or not you get a job. The more fannies in the seats, the more cash they get. It doesnt make sense for them to take on an army of LLM students either but they still do it.
Last edited by MrAnon on Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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