Feeling Extremely Down

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09042014
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby 09042014 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:56 pm

Dood, Chicago firms take a while. Don't compare yourself to the people bidding NYC who hear back right away. 1 CB is more than many people have.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:57 pm

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.


Exactly. $27 an hour for this gig:

http://www.hirecounsel.com/jobs_search_ ... hp?id=1145

isn't too too bad. My first doc review gig way back in early 2005 was only paying $21 an hour at Paul Weiss in NYC, so "entry level" doc review pay has gone up somewhat. It's $1080 a week, prolly $800/week take home for a single dood in NYC.

Of course since it's temp there's no health insurance or 401K etc, but it's still better than most recent college grads will ever see. Also once you get doc review experience you could roll on to another project paying like $30 to $32 an hour.

If you speak a foreign language that's in demand (Mandarin or Japanese) some of these gigs go as high as $45 to $50 an hour btw.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:This sort of doom and gloom is outrageous. As a T-14 transfer, even if you strike out at OCI, you have a degree that will follow you the rest of your life. I know it's scary to not have many callbacks (right now...I'm right there with y'all), but unless you transferred from a T-20, you're in a better position than 99% of your former classmates. Yes, the economy is bad, but if you have social skills and a T-14 degree you won't be out on the street. Your life is not over.

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.

I understand times are tough, and as a transfer student myself (with a very precarious OCI situation), I understand the fear. At the same time, I think you're doing just as much of a disservice to the impressionable 0Ls out there as the LS admins who run around trumpeting 160K like its the norm. The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. I hope we can all realize that sooner or later.


+1.

I'll just provide one perspective of a V20 partner who does OCI screeners and what he/she thinks of transfers...this person was very blatant when he/she told me that when it comes to evaluating transfers, he'll/she'll look first at the school and if it's a school they would consider hiring from (not necessarily only through OCI, but through mass mail, as well), then that's one check. Then if the applicant passes that threshold, he/she looks at the grade and sees if it would meet the grade cutoff for that particular school (the lower the school, the higher the cutoff). If so, then that's another check. If you pass both of those threshold tests, then he/she considers the applicant like any other applicant from the new school.

again, that's just one firm and one partner, but the person made it seem like his/her views were pretty representative of other partners at the firms, as well as at comparable firms.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:This sort of doom and gloom is outrageous. As a T-14 transfer, even if you strike out at OCI, you have a degree that will follow you the rest of your life. I know it's scary to not have many callbacks (right now...I'm right there with y'all), but unless you transferred from a T-20, you're in a better position than 99% of your former classmates. Yes, the economy is bad, but if you have social skills and a T-14 degree you won't be out on the street. Your life is not over.

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.

I understand times are tough, and as a transfer student myself (with a very precarious OCI situation), I understand the fear. At the same time, I think you're doing just as much of a disservice to the impressionable 0Ls out there as the LS admins who run around trumpeting 160K like its the norm. The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. I hope we can all realize that sooner or later.


Obviously? I think if it were so obvious the schools would be much quicker to point it out. "Look you can still get a job that pays really well though not biglaw money to start." But you dont hear much about those. The schools talk up BIGLAW or they talk up IBR.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This sort of doom and gloom is outrageous. As a T-14 transfer, even if you strike out at OCI, you have a degree that will follow you the rest of your life. I know it's scary to not have many callbacks (right now...I'm right there with y'all), but unless you transferred from a T-20, you're in a better position than 99% of your former classmates. Yes, the economy is bad, but if you have social skills and a T-14 degree you won't be out on the street. Your life is not over.

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.

I understand times are tough, and as a transfer student myself (with a very precarious OCI situation), I understand the fear. At the same time, I think you're doing just as much of a disservice to the impressionable 0Ls out there as the LS admins who run around trumpeting 160K like its the norm. The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. I hope we can all realize that sooner or later.


+1.

I'll just provide one perspective of a V20 partner who does OCI screeners and what he/she thinks of transfers...this person was very blatant when he/she told me that when it comes to evaluating transfers, he'll/she'll look first at the school and if it's a school they would consider hiring from (not necessarily only through OCI, but through mass mail, as well), then that's one check. Then if the applicant passes that threshold, he/she looks at the grade and sees if it would meet the grade cutoff for that particular school (the lower the school, the higher the cutoff). If so, then that's another check. If you pass both of those threshold tests, then he/she considers the applicant like any other applicant from the new school.

again, that's just one firm and one partner, but the person made it seem like his/her views were pretty representative of other partners at the firms, as well as at comparable firms.


If this is true, then what exactly is the benefit of transferring? The partner is only comfortable hiring the student if he goes to a school that they typically recruit from, and his grades would have gotten him a look anyway. If the kid was already going to get a look from such a firm, the transfer doesn't seem like it would be much use at all.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:If this is true, then what exactly is the benefit of transferring? The partner is only comfortable hiring the student if he goes to a school that they typically recruit from, and his grades would have gotten him a look anyway. If the kid was already going to get a look from such a firm, the transfer doesn't seem like it would be much use at all.


The benefits of transferring are far from guaranteed to everyone who does it. It depends heavily on the school transferred from, performance there, the individual applicant, and the firms that the applicant sees. Somebody with an unimpressive background who just barely made the transfer cut-off is unlikely to reap great rewards just because they got more interviews, but somebody who was #1 in the class at an impressive but lesser known school with deep work experience and a charming personality can likely convert screening interviews as well or better than the people who were at the transfer school to begin with.

Obviously most transfers fall somewhere inbetween, but an already chaotic process (as people are beginning to realize more clearly, there is no such thing as a safety firm!) is much more chaotic for transfers. I know transfers who turned their new experience into prestigious firm jobs, law review membersip + leadership, and CoA clerkships. I know transfers who graduated from my T14 unemployed. It's definitely a tough call, but it's a tough legal market for anyone. The biggest problem comes when somebody gave up scholarship money for the new school, which makes the stakes quite a bit higher.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:14 am

Obviously? I think if it were so obvious the schools would be much quicker to point it out. "Look you can still get a job that pays really well though not biglaw money to start." But you dont hear much about those. The schools talk up BIGLAW or they talk up IBR.


Guys, once you strike out at OCI, you are dead men walking to career services. Their attitude is "well, you had your chance and fucking blew it. Thanks for playing!"

Do you really think that have some "secret list" of so-called Midlaw firms paying also-rans 80-140 K entry level that they fork over as a "consolation prize"? This isn't a game show.

Bottom line is once you strike out at OCI, the time comes to really do some soul-searching and ask yourself if it's really worth dropping another 100 K or so to see this disaster thru the finish line. Consider this:

No one's paying your bar prep.

Having to study for the bar with the stress of no job lined up.

Having to search for jobs WHILE STUDYING for the bar.

Facing the overwhelming likelihood of starting at 35-55 K a year or being stuck in doc review forever as a nameless, no-health insurance temp.

All career services is gonna do is toss you craigslist ads and tell you to register for lawjobs, lawcrossing etc and "network." Whether you get a job or not is of no consequence to them, since published employment/salary stats are wholly ficticious anyway.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:18 am

areyouinsane wrote:
Obviously? I think if it were so obvious the schools would be much quicker to point it out. "Look you can still get a job that pays really well though not biglaw money to start." But you dont hear much about those. The schools talk up BIGLAW or they talk up IBR.


Guys, once you strike out at OCI, you are dead men walking to career services. Their attitude is "well, you had your chance and fucking blew it. Thanks for playing!"

Do you really think that have some "secret list" of so-called Midlaw firms paying also-rans 80-140 K entry level that they fork over as a "consolation prize"? This isn't a game show.

Bottom line is once you strike out at OCI, the time comes to really do some soul-searching and ask yourself if it's really worth dropping another 100 K or so to see this disaster thru the finish line. Consider this:

No one's paying your bar prep.

Having to study for the bar with the stress of no job lined up.

Having to search for jobs WHILE STUDYING for the bar.

Facing the overwhelming likelihood of starting at 35-55 K a year or being stuck in doc review forever as a nameless, no-health insurance temp.

All career services is gonna do is toss you craigslist ads and tell you to register for lawjobs, lawcrossing etc and "network." Whether you get a job or not is of no consequence to them, since published employment/salary stats are wholly ficticious anyway.


I hate to say it, but I go to a T10 and while areyouinsane obviously has his agenda what he's posting really isn't that farfetched. I know a half dozen people who just graduated jobless despite strong personalities + credentials. They struck out at OCI and things never congealed, there wasn't ever really a round two. They tried 3L OCI, sent out letters to tons of different employers, and received tons of rejections. Some are now living at home, some are "clerking" on a volunteer basis for federal judges (more prestigious than doc review; doesn't pay the rent!), some are returning to non-legal jobs they had before law school, etc.

This market is unimaginably bad. While there are success stories to be found amongst those who struck out at OCI, it's an extremely bleak outlook.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
areyouinsane wrote:
Obviously? I think if it were so obvious the schools would be much quicker to point it out. "Look you can still get a job that pays really well though not biglaw money to start." But you dont hear much about those. The schools talk up BIGLAW or they talk up IBR.


Guys, once you strike out at OCI, you are dead men walking to career services. Their attitude is "well, you had your chance and fucking blew it. Thanks for playing!"

Do you really think that have some "secret list" of so-called Midlaw firms paying also-rans 80-140 K entry level that they fork over as a "consolation prize"? This isn't a game show.

Bottom line is once you strike out at OCI, the time comes to really do some soul-searching and ask yourself if it's really worth dropping another 100 K or so to see this disaster thru the finish line. Consider this:

No one's paying your bar prep.

Having to study for the bar with the stress of no job lined up.

Having to search for jobs WHILE STUDYING for the bar.

Facing the overwhelming likelihood of starting at 35-55 K a year or being stuck in doc review forever as a nameless, no-health insurance temp.

All career services is gonna do is toss you craigslist ads and tell you to register for lawjobs, lawcrossing etc and "network." Whether you get a job or not is of no consequence to them, since published employment/salary stats are wholly ficticious anyway.


I hate to say it, but I go to a T10 and while areyouinsane obviously has his agenda what he's posting really isn't that farfetched. I know a half dozen people who just graduated jobless despite strong personalities + credentials. They struck out at OCI and things never congealed, there wasn't ever really a round two. They tried 3L OCI, sent out letters to tons of different employers, and received tons of rejections. Some are now living at home, some are "clerking" on a volunteer basis for federal judges (more prestigious than doc review; doesn't pay the rent!), some are returning to non-legal jobs they had before law school, etc.

This market is unimaginably bad. While there are success stories to be found amongst those who struck out at OCI, it's an extremely bleak outlook.

There are so, so, so many attorneys out there who are not in biglaw. It isn't all sunshine and rainbows, and some people surely will not find jobs despite a good faith effort (true at every school), but striking out at OCI puts you in the same boat as the people who never wanted to do it in the first place. You need to reassess your goals, find some area of the law that might interest you, hopefully one that is LRAP/IBR related, and go get yourself relevant experience (clinics, internships, 2L summer). Not to say this is something all unemployed T10 grads are guilty of, but sitting around moping about never pulling in 160 is not a winning proposition. I read recently that the U.S. unemployment rate is something like mid-teens for people with no college education, and around 2% for people with professional degrees. Yes, the debt can be substantial; sure, maybe law school was a "mistake" (easy to say in retrospect, the grass is always greener, and so on); but a little perspective may be in order.

All that said, people need to relax about their early stage OCI results and take things as they come; it is arguably not yet even late August and certainly not yet September by any calendar I know of. You are simply not a colossal failure, whether the firms start calling or not.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:34 am

I give up.

While there may be some truth in what people like areyouinsane are posting, its the EXCEPTION and not the RULE. Sure, instead of everyone at a T-14 being guaranteed a biglaw job, now some people have to settle for less. In some cases, they have to settle for MUCH less. Regardless, when its all said and done, ten or fifteen years down the road, even if they're not doing the world's most interesting legal work, many of them will be making a solid living.

For the love of god stop being so myopic. If you have your heart set on NYC biglaw and you don't get it, move on. Consider something else. Don't do contract attorney doc review in hopes that you'll suddenly get lucky and land a job at Debevoise. Go work in PI. Go work for a state government. Go find a respectable small-time attorney in your hometown and tell him you need a mentor and you need help. Hell, if all else fails, go do something else. Your T-14 JD won't hurt you. YOUR LIFE (AND YOUR CAREER) IS NOT OVER. You might not strike it rich right away. Times might be tough for a while, but I refuse to buy into this ridiculous notion that there are no legal jobs worth having unless they pay NYC market. That is absurd.

If you hustle, and you have a JD from a T-14, you won't starve. I've yet to see any ATL posts about homeless Penn grads roving the streets.

Yes, law school is a poor choice for a lot of people these days, but if you honestly think that striking out at a T-14 OCI is the end of your legal career, unless you'd rather give up than forego a shot at a NLJ 250 firm, you're flat wrong.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This sort of doom and gloom is outrageous. As a T-14 transfer, even if you strike out at OCI, you have a degree that will follow you the rest of your life. I know it's scary to not have many callbacks (right now...I'm right there with y'all), but unless you transferred from a T-20, you're in a better position than 99% of your former classmates. Yes, the economy is bad, but if you have social skills and a T-14 degree you won't be out on the street. Your life is not over.

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.

I understand times are tough, and as a transfer student myself (with a very precarious OCI situation), I understand the fear. At the same time, I think you're doing just as much of a disservice to the impressionable 0Ls out there as the LS admins who run around trumpeting 160K like its the norm. The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. I hope we can all realize that sooner or later.


+1.

I'll just provide one perspective of a V20 partner who does OCI screeners and what he/she thinks of transfers...this person was very blatant when he/she told me that when it comes to evaluating transfers, he'll/she'll look first at the school and if it's a school they would consider hiring from (not necessarily only through OCI, but through mass mail, as well), then that's one check. Then if the applicant passes that threshold, he/she looks at the grade and sees if it would meet the grade cutoff for that particular school (the lower the school, the higher the cutoff). If so, then that's another check. If you pass both of those threshold tests, then he/she considers the applicant like any other applicant from the new school.

again, that's just one firm and one partner, but the person made it seem like his/her views were pretty representative of other partners at the firms, as well as at comparable firms.

Not true, at least across the board.

While I may have struck out. I know plenty of people that have received CBs at schools that did notinterview at their old schools.

I would also say, notwithstanding my predicament, most transfers that I know did receive CBs and will likely have a couple offers from which to choose.

One bad experience shouldn't be evidence that everyone will have a bad experience. Just as one good experience isn't evidence that everyone will receive CBs and offers.

Again, to reiterate, on the whole my transfer class seems to be doing quite well at OCI. Me, not so much. :lol:

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:51 am

Op, someone made an interesting point earlier about work experience. Do you have any? If not, that's something that could negatively set you off from other NU folks.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:54 am

While there may be some truth in what people like areyouinsane are posting, its the EXCEPTION and not the RULE. Sure, instead of everyone at a T-14 being guaranteed a biglaw job, now some people have to settle for less. In some cases, they have to settle for MUCH less. Regardless, when its all said and done, ten or fifteen years down the road, even if they're not doing the world's most interesting legal work, many of them will be making a solid living.

For the love of god stop being so myopic. If you have your heart set on NYC biglaw and you don't get it, move on. Consider something else. Don't do contract attorney doc review in hopes that you'll suddenly get lucky and land a job at Debevoise. Go work in PI. Go work for a state government. Go find a respectable small-time attorney in your hometown and tell him you need a mentor and you need help. Hell, if all else fails, go do something else. Your T-14 JD won't hurt you. YOUR LIFE (AND YOUR CAREER) IS NOT OVER. You might not strike it rich right away. Times might be tough for a while, but I refuse to buy into this ridiculous notion that there are no legal jobs worth having unless they pay NYC market.


I think the real failure here is to appreciate & understand that the legal market has simply taken a permanent, irreversible turn for the worse. As the disclaimers always state "past performance does not guarantee future results."

Sure, your uncle, neighbor, or dad's college roommate may have gone to a TTT or never done Biglaw from a T-14 and still made a decent or even great salary/career.

But things today are drastically different. Tutions are simply astronomical and detached from all reason, and to make it worse the loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Furthermore, small-time "consumer" practice is really hurting. Wanna do Ch. 7 bankruptcy, personal injury, divorce, or other rinky dink stuff? Better get ready to drop 25-50 K on Google Adwords or you'll be hearing crickets chirp in your office. The saturation level of losers gunning for this nonsense work is astronomical. Worse yet, when you emerge from lawschool you aren't even capable of filing a complaint or handling a DWI case without taking some expensive CLE's and/or learning on the job for a pathetically low salary or hourly rate.

The shitlaw/solo trend today is to buy leads from websites like lawinfo.com. They called me the other day to see if I was interested in purchasing some Chapter 7 BK leads. They wanted roughly $100 a pop to route calls from the website to my cell phone, but of course there's no guarantee most of them (the leads) aren't tire kickers or "payment plan" types who you'll chase for money long after the work is done. But it's really the only way to get cases, since these "big boys" buy the top Google spots and hog all the business.

Wanna work in government? Good luck: both the NJ AG and the NJ Us Attorney now offer a salary of 0 dollars:

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-26/n ... ers-camden

and

http://blogs.findlaw.com/strategist/200 ... teers.html

Prefer legal aid? Good luck with that!:

http://articles.philly.com/2010-08-14/n ... ewer-cases

I also would strongly recommend not putting your eggs in the IBR basket. The government could easily slash that program, or bury its repeal in some other bill or law. It looks more and more likely that Obama is a goner, so who knows what batshit "austerity" awaits in the budgets to come? They already screwed grad students over in the debt ceiling deal last month.

Outsourcing is also a huge wild card- the Indians aren't just doing doc review anymore, they're drafting leases, writing briefs, and performing other substantive work for pennies on the dollar. The ABA loves it:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1 ... hbxlogin=1

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NZA
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby NZA » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:58 am

areyouinsane wrote:I also would strongly recommend not putting your eggs in the IBR basket. The government could easily slash that program, or bury its repeal in some other bill or law. It looks more and more likely that Obama is a goner, so who knows what batshit "austerity" awaits in the budgets to come? They already screwed grad students over in the debt ceiling deal last month.

I doubt they'll get rid of IBR in the near future...that would just be insane. And if they do, I'm willing to bet T14 LRAPs will find a way to help their grads.

...I hope...

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:04 am

Oh for god's sake we're living in the worst economic climate since the great depression.

Things suck, but they suck for just about everybody. I have a friend who is a top aeronautics student from great school who has nothing to show. Ditto for business, marketing, accounting etc. etc. etc.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:17 am

Wow, areyouinsane is...well...insane.

areyouinsane wrote:It sucks to have such a large "sunk cost," but the chances of ever making north of 65-75 K outside Biglaw are slim to none


This is an incorrect answer. I left Biglaw voluntarily, with public sector job offer in hand, because I wanted to do public service work -- so much that the six figure-magnitude paycut was a non-issue to me. I am a 2011 public sector hire (yes, we do exist) in a highly-sought-after coastal major market. I am one of seventeen recent public sector hires of which I'm aware, within fifty miles of where I live, over the past six months. We span federal, state, and local employers. And each of us makes north of 75K a year (many, noticeably so). I understand that our experiences are far, far from universal, but we do exist. In fairness, the fact that I left Biglaw tells you that I am not a current student and had the good fortune of graduating and getting in some experience before the current, terrible economy commenced. And even as an alum, I was shaken by the months-long ordeal of going on the the terrible public sector legal market in 2011. I empathize greatly with what you guys are going through, and I don't want to minimize it for a second. But I still believe that areyouinsane is overstating the situation when s/he says that one cannot make north of 65-75K without a Biglaw job offer in hand.

Law is not so much fun when you've been passed on by biglaw, and even in biglaw life ain't so great (but its better than the alternatives).


Again, absolutely ridiculous. How many alternatives to biglaw have you tried as a full-time practitioner? As someone who's now experienced three non-biglaw positions following my law school graduation (counting jobs held before my stint in biglaw and now)...to be honest, ALL of the (public sector) alternatives I've tried are better than biglaw: the work is more fulfilling, the people are more fun to work with (because they are doing work in which they believe), and the hours are better. Even when the hours outside biglaw are long, they are far more flexible/humane.

with the only certainty ahead being that biglaw is no longer available and I will have to learn to love a lower paying field of law?


How much you are getting paid has nothing to do with how much you love the field in which you practice. To be honest, looking at the hundreds of biglaw attorneys with whom I've interacted - and then looking at the range of public sector and nonprofit attorneys I know - salary and love of the field are probably inversely proportionate.

I didn't have to "learn to love" a lower-paying field of law. I loved my new job, instantly, because it meant the opportunity to do amazingly interesting work on an issue of pressing social importance. In contrast, the only thing I've ever done that has caused me to dislike law? Biglaw.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:26 am

Be patient.

3.2 at Cornell (bottom 30-40%). 7 callbacks so far (NYC and Boston). All V firms. I am good at interviews, but that's it. The economy is not as bad as I thought.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This sort of doom and gloom is outrageous. As a T-14 transfer, even if you strike out at OCI, you have a degree that will follow you the rest of your life. I know it's scary to not have many callbacks (right now...I'm right there with y'all), but unless you transferred from a T-20, you're in a better position than 99% of your former classmates. Yes, the economy is bad, but if you have social skills and a T-14 degree you won't be out on the street. Your life is not over.

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.

I understand times are tough, and as a transfer student myself (with a very precarious OCI situation), I understand the fear. At the same time, I think you're doing just as much of a disservice to the impressionable 0Ls out there as the LS admins who run around trumpeting 160K like its the norm. The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. I hope we can all realize that sooner or later.


+1.

I'll just provide one perspective of a V20 partner who does OCI screeners and what he/she thinks of transfers...this person was very blatant when he/she told me that when it comes to evaluating transfers, he'll/she'll look first at the school and if it's a school they would consider hiring from (not necessarily only through OCI, but through mass mail, as well), then that's one check. Then if the applicant passes that threshold, he/she looks at the grade and sees if it would meet the grade cutoff for that particular school (the lower the school, the higher the cutoff). If so, then that's another check. If you pass both of those threshold tests, then he/she considers the applicant like any other applicant from the new school.

again, that's just one firm and one partner, but the person made it seem like his/her views were pretty representative of other partners at the firms, as well as at comparable firms.


If this is true, then what exactly is the benefit of transferring? The partner is only comfortable hiring the student if he goes to a school that they typically recruit from, and his grades would have gotten him a look anyway. If the kid was already going to get a look from such a firm, the transfer doesn't seem like it would be much use at all.



There is no benefit! Transfers ASSUME there MUST be a benefit, after all one is leaving a toilet school for something far better right? But there is no benefit. Its kind of like law students ASSUME there MUST be jobs that are not BIGLAW but also not SHITLAW that will pave a middle class lifestyle. But there just arent.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:38 am

NZA wrote:
areyouinsane wrote:I also would strongly recommend not putting your eggs in the IBR basket. The government could easily slash that program, or bury its repeal in some other bill or law. It looks more and more likely that Obama is a goner, so who knows what batshit "austerity" awaits in the budgets to come? They already screwed grad students over in the debt ceiling deal last month.

I doubt they'll get rid of IBR in the near future...that would just be insane. And if they do, I'm willing to bet T14 LRAPs will find a way to help their grads.

...I hope...


That is a really naive view. We're not talking about social security and welfare here. There was no IBR just a few years ago. It will go and it will go quickly. Subsidies for law students are not high on the country's agenda.

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NZA
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby NZA » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:41 am

MrAnon wrote:
NZA wrote:
areyouinsane wrote:I also would strongly recommend not putting your eggs in the IBR basket. The government could easily slash that program, or bury its repeal in some other bill or law. It looks more and more likely that Obama is a goner, so who knows what batshit "austerity" awaits in the budgets to come? They already screwed grad students over in the debt ceiling deal last month.

I doubt they'll get rid of IBR in the near future...that would just be insane. And if they do, I'm willing to bet T14 LRAPs will find a way to help their grads.

...I hope...


That is a really naive view. We're not talking about social security and welfare here. There was no IBR just a few years ago. It will go and it will go quickly. Subsidies for law students are not high on the country's agenda.

IIRC, IBR isn't just for law school loans, it's for anyone with a fed student loan working in government. :|

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:18 am

There is no benefit! Transfers ASSUME there MUST be a benefit, after all one is leaving a toilet school for something far better right? But there is no benefit. Its kind of like law students ASSUME there MUST be jobs that are not BIGLAW but also not SHITLAW that will pave a middle class lifestyle. But there just arent.


100% correct.

As I've written before, law is a stressful, boring, tedious job. Biglaw doesn't pony up 160 K to 25 year old know-nothings for shits and giggles, they do it because the work is simply so miserable that only very high rates of pay will compel people to stick with it for any length of time. Aside from the lure of money, the industry simply offers nothing else worthwhile.

Even whatever "lay prestige" there once was is long gone, since everyone now has a mentally retarded 2nd cousin who graduated Cooley or a stoner roommate with a spiffy Hofstra JD. Word is out that this industry is basically a joke, with shockingly low education & licensing standards. It also doesn't help that practically every daytime TV ad is some shyster in a cowboy hat imploring you to "come on down" to Bob's Injury Mill and cash in on your trip n' slip or fender bender.

The big problem is that shitlaw is every bit as miserable as biglaw, only you don't have the "carrot" of a 3 K+ a week paycheck. That's why so many people leave the industry rather quickly (or never really get started in it post-grad)- because the work/compensation balance is simply so abysmal. If all you're going to earn is a piddling 35 to 55 K a year, there are much easier and more pleasant ways to do it than grinding out shitpaper in some insurance defense boiler room.

Do you really believe all the kids on JDUnderground or the scamblogs are "wrong"? Do you think everyone doing the $27 an hour doc review gigs were the anchormen at NYLS or Pace? The simple fact is that a large % of you will simply not believe how badly this mistake is gonna play out.

Maybe it's just one of those things you simply have to experience to truly believe. Hell, I've worked every shit job there is since age 14, from washing dishes by hand in a diner to mixing wheelbarrows of cement mortar in 100 degree heat. Guess what? I never hated any of those gigs half as much as working shitlaw or doc review, nor was I ever treated as poorly by any of them. For a discharge of my student loans I'd gladly resign from the NY & NJ bars tomorrow morning and forget this mistake ever happened.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:40 am

First this is why you mass mail. At least one person who posted itt has an OFFER for BigLaw -- just not through OCI. I personally had 3 cbs already and another firm that wants to interview me. And I would definitely be happy with any of those places.

To be honest though this thread makes me glad I didn't have OCI yet. I definitely plan on asking the former transfers here about this and see if they have any advice since most of them got jobs and cbs.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:05 am

20 interviews, no callbacks. Median kid at T-14.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's a school-to-school thing then. I don't think it's unheard of here at my CCN school for a third to half of the transfers to get V10 of V15.


I'm not a transfer, but I've met a few transfers at our OCI (also one of CCN), and they universally seem to feel as if they overbid and are getting slapped down by the selective firms. (And we're talking about people who were top 5-10% at T30 schools, very realistic chance of biglaw had they stayed put.) I think it might be different this year, for whatever reason, and firms have decided they don't like transfers as much as they used to.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby bjsesq » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:04 am

Desert Fox wrote:Dood, Chicago firms take a while. Don't compare yourself to the people bidding NYC who hear back right away. 1 CB is more than many people have.


Lemme go ahead and quote this because it was seemingly ignored.

Also, bid conservatively in Chicago is not necessarily great advice. Some of the firms with the highest grade standards also have the largest summer classes. You have to find a balance. If you are going to toss out firms like Sidley, Kirkland, and Jenner, simply because of their high GPA medians, you just tossed out a significant portion of the Chicago market's legal jobs. You MUST find a balance in bidding.




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