Feeling Extremely Down

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Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Too early to be extremely down. I ultimately ended up with 4 offers (2 V10) but only had a couple of callbacks this time last year. What market are you applying to? If it's not NYC don't even start expecting callbacks before a week or two.


Chicago. I've been hoping this is a possible explanation, but who knows. I do know that many of the firms I've interviewed with have extended CBs to at least some students.


Kirkland Chicago took almost two weeks to give me a callback, and another 3 weeks after that to give me an offer.

You should be mass-mailing no matter what, but don't count out your OCI prospects until you actually have all the ding letters in hand.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Too early to be extremely down. I ultimately ended up with 4 offers (2 V10) but only had a couple of callbacks this time last year. What market are you applying to? If it's not NYC don't even start expecting callbacks before a week or two.


I'm a T10 transfer, as well, so this thread is incredibly discouraging, considering the huge investment...for those not getting immediate bites, do you think it's related to the quality of the school you transferred from? i know it's still early on to be super worried, but i was told before transferring that transfers tend to do really well at OCI. i hope this wasn't misguided advice..


OP here, don't want to be too specific so I'll just say that I'm not really worried about the quality of the school I transferred from. I guess I'll narrow it down to T1. I will say that I talked to a transfer student at another school who transferred from a T4 and said that he didn't think it made any difference what school you transferred from.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:33 pm

You're not alone. The last week and a half has been miserable for me.

I'll join the pity party too. :?

20+ screeners, no CBs, I've lost count of the dings. OCI ran from the 8-12th, so even though I still have about half the decisions outstanding, the writing is on the wall.

I'm a transfer as well. I don't think it's the quality of the school I transferred from. I went from a respectable T1 to a much higher T1 in my home region. Most of the firms interview at my old school, so no problems with being an unknown quantity.

I've concluded I must suck at interviewing, despite feeling that most of them went very well.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Too early to be extremely down. I ultimately ended up with 4 offers (2 V10) but only had a couple of callbacks this time last year. What market are you applying to? If it's not NYC don't even start expecting callbacks before a week or two.


Chicago. I've been hoping this is a possible explanation, but who knows. I do know that many of the firms I've interviewed with have extended CBs to at least some students.


Kirkland Chicago took almost two weeks to give me a callback, and another 3 weeks after that to give me an offer.

You should be mass-mailing no matter what, but don't count out your OCI prospects until you actually have all the ding letters in hand.


Comforting to know, thanks! Do you have any idea why it might have taken so long? Larger class size?

I've mass mailed about every NALP firm in Chicago I'd be interested in - resulted in another 2 screeners and 2 rejections. I think I need to start looking at other markets. Trouble is all my ties are to Chicago.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:48 pm

Feeling the same way. 30 screeners. 1 cb. T14. 20 official dings and "soft" dings (i.e. callbacks have gone out) from the rest. I've always considered myself a solid interviewer, but seriously beginning to doubt myself. Though there's also a good chance I overbid and wasn't in the running for a lot of the firms from the start...

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Feeling the same way. 30 screeners. 1 cb. T14. 20 official dings and "soft" dings (i.e. callbacks have gone out) from the rest. I've always considered myself a solid interviewer, but seriously beginning to doubt myself. Though there's also a good chance I overbid and wasn't in the running for a lot of the firms from the start...


I'm in a relatively similar situation. I KNOW I'm not a bad interviewer. And that isn't just my opinion. I was able to turn quite a few mass mail screening interviews into callbacks, and even have an offer on the table from a secondary market firm. So how could the firms be all over me during the mass mail interviews, yet pass right by me at OCI when my interview style is entirely the same? Is it solely based on the fact that there is a huge pool of insanely smart students interviewing before and after me that is making me look bad in comparison whereas such comparison is absent when I visit a firm alone for a screener or callback?

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:55 pm

I have a strong sense that WE is a more important factor than TLS may traditionally suggest.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have a strong sense that WE is a more important factor than TLS may traditionally suggest.


I'm the anon w/ 30 screeners/1 cb from above. Sadly, I do have relevant work experience. :cry: I'm fairly certain I'm just a victim of my school's lottery system and bad bidding advice from OCS. I really wish we had preselect - I might not have had as many interviews, but I least I wouldn't have been wasting my time or getting my hopes up...

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a strong sense that WE is a more important factor than TLS may traditionally suggest.


I'm the anon w/ 30 screeners/1 cb from above. Sadly, I do have relevant work experience. :cry: I'm fairly certain I'm just a victim of my school's lottery system and bad bidding advice from OCS. I really wish we had preselect - I might not have had as many interviews, but I least I wouldn't have been wasting my time or getting my hopes up...


Yeah, I certainly regret some of my bids T10 bids. It's tough though because you either pick firms that are less selective but have minuscule class sizes, or selective firms with much larger class sizes. Throw in transfer status and it's really hard to figure out exactly what to do. I did end up with a number of interviews with firms I thought I was competitive for, however, so I'm not that upset about it.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a strong sense that WE is a more important factor than TLS may traditionally suggest.


I'm the anon w/ 30 screeners/1 cb from above. Sadly, I do have relevant work experience. :cry: I'm fairly certain I'm just a victim of my school's lottery system and bad bidding advice from OCS. I really wish we had preselect - I might not have had as many interviews, but I least I wouldn't have been wasting my time or getting my hopes up...


I completely agree. Makes me wish I had just stayed at my old school. Sure, I wouldn't have had access to quite as many firms, but those I got facetime with would have certainly taken me seriously. I got all starry-eyed seeing the big and prestigious firms I could now bid on and thought that, since I am now a CCN student, they will automatically take me seriously. What a dumb approach. I should have populated much more of my list with less selective firms where I was already a decent candidate, but would now be a stronger candidate (as opposed to bidding on firms where I went from having no chance at my old school to having next to no chance at my new school)

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a strong sense that WE is a more important factor than TLS may traditionally suggest.


I'm the anon w/ 30 screeners/1 cb from above. Sadly, I do have relevant work experience. :cry: I'm fairly certain I'm just a victim of my school's lottery system and bad bidding advice from OCS. I really wish we had preselect - I might not have had as many interviews, but I least I wouldn't have been wasting my time or getting my hopes up...


I completely agree. Makes me wish I had just stayed at my old school. Sure, I wouldn't have had access to quite as many firms, but those I got facetime with would have certainly taken me seriously. I got all starry-eyed seeing the big and prestigious firms I could now bid on and thought that, since I am now a CCN student, they will automatically take me seriously. What a dumb approach. I should have populated much more of my list with less selective firms where I was already a decent candidate, but would now be a stronger candidate (as opposed to bidding on firms where I went from having no chance at my old school to having next to no chance at my new school)


Yup, +1 to all of this. Let this be a lesson to future transfers out there - BID CONSERVATIVELY. I know some people have offered advice to the contrary, but honestly its not worth the risk. Many people are only going to get 13-17 screeners and you just can't afford for a bunch of them to be wasted on firms that you likely don't have much of a shot at.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:20 pm

We had a panel of firm recruiters talk to us before OCI at my school, and they specifically told us they look at transfers as if they were still at their old schools. They use the rubric they would use at the former school, with the same cutoffs.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:22 pm

These threads are great. Now you understand what a crapshoot the whole thing is? There have been people on these boards for years warning about attending LS but they always get yelled down. Law is not so much fun when you've been passed on by biglaw, and even in biglaw life ain't so great (but its better than the alternatives).

I would encourage you to be completely honest with yourself as fall tuition deadlines approach. Do I really want to do another two years of school just like last year, with the only certainty ahead being that biglaw is no longer available and I will have to learn to love a lower paying field of law? Don't be fooled by the school administration encouraging you to stay the course. Their only interest is keeping you in the system and paying your fall tuition. And check out jdunderground.com to learn about alternatives to biglaw.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:We had a panel of firm recruiters talk to us before OCI at my school, and they specifically told us they look at transfers as if they were still at their old schools. They use the rubric they would use at the former school, with the same cutoffs.


Firm recruiters or the attorneys filling out the evals? How much say do recruiters actually have in deciding who gets hired?

I can think of half a dozen transfer students I know personally where this wasn't even remotely the case.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a strong sense that WE is a more important factor than TLS may traditionally suggest.


I'm the anon w/ 30 screeners/1 cb from above. Sadly, I do have relevant work experience. :cry: I'm fairly certain I'm just a victim of my school's lottery system and bad bidding advice from OCS. I really wish we had preselect - I might not have had as many interviews, but I least I wouldn't have been wasting my time or getting my hopes up...


I completely agree. Makes me wish I had just stayed at my old school. Sure, I wouldn't have had access to quite as many firms, but those I got facetime with would have certainly taken me seriously. I got all starry-eyed seeing the big and prestigious firms I could now bid on and thought that, since I am now a CCN student, they will automatically take me seriously. What a dumb approach. I should have populated much more of my list with less selective firms where I was already a decent candidate, but would now be a stronger candidate (as opposed to bidding on firms where I went from having no chance at my old school to having next to no chance at my new school)


Yup, +1 to all of this. Let this be a lesson to future transfers out there - BID CONSERVATIVELY. I know some people have offered advice to the contrary, but honestly its not worth the risk. Many people are only going to get 13-17 screeners and you just can't afford for a bunch of them to be wasted on firms that you likely don't have much of a shot at.


I guess the reality is that you aren't really a student at your new school. All you are is a so and so % student from your old school in a new place. The firms that wouldn't have taken you seriously had you stayed aren't going to suddenly change their mind about you simply because you force them to meet with you via a lottery. Doesn't matter how wonderful the interaction or how good your personality if they wouldn't have hired you anyway.

So the main focus essentially becomes firms that heavily recruit from your old school, or less selective firms that are on par with the ones that heavily recruit from your old school. Essentially, your only realistic options are the exact same ones you had before you transferred. So I am still a so and so % student from my old school, just in a new location. I still have the same opportunities available to me, and I still have the same restrictions confining me. Yet I am paying tens of thousands more. I'm not sure how I ever justified this as a logical decision. Guess I was starry-eyed and let my heart dictate, rather than my brain. This is the same stupid impulse that led me to bid on firms beyond my reach. Serves me right for not thinking with my brain.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:a northwestern law student not being able to find employment....that is extremely discouraging


There are a decent number of Harvard Law students not able to find stuff through OCI. Welcome to today's legal market.


eh. i dont know about that. apparently there are a few ppl so far (OCI just ended today for us) w/o cbs, but they're usually looking at DC/SF only markets, where it moves slower and is harder to get jobs at. everyone i know bidding on NYC has 1 or usually more cbs, and the week just ended. i guess we'll have to see the stats when they're finally released as what im saying is purely anecdotal really.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:We had a panel of firm recruiters talk to us before OCI at my school, and they specifically told us they look at transfers as if they were still at their old schools. They use the rubric they would use at the former school, with the same cutoffs.


Firm recruiters or the attorneys filling out the evals? How much say do recruiters actually have in deciding who gets hired?

I can think of half a dozen transfer students I know personally where this wasn't even remotely the case.


I think it is going to vary from firm to firm. I spoke with a 3L transfer who was told by his firm that he summered with that he would have never even have gotten a screener if he didn't transfer to T14. It is a strange concept, evaluating transfers, that's for sure.

MrAnon wrote:These threads are great. Now you understand what a crapshoot the whole thing is? There have been people on these boards for years warning about attending LS but they always get yelled down. Law is not so much fun when you've been passed on by biglaw, and even in biglaw life ain't so great (but its better than the alternatives).

I would encourage you to be completely honest with yourself as fall tuition deadlines approach. Do I really want to do another two years of school just like last year, with the only certainty ahead being that biglaw is no longer available and I will have to learn to love a lower paying field of law? Don't be fooled by the school administration encouraging you to stay the course. Their only interest is keeping you in the system and paying your fall tuition. And check out jdunderground.com to learn about alternatives to biglaw.


I don't think I would have to "learn to love" a lower paying field of law - like I said in OP, I'm not BigLaw or bust. However, I will have to evaluate what life would be like pulling in 40-50k with 180k debt. People obviously do it, but I really don't know much about how difficult it is to do and what their lifestyles are like.

I will admit that I have, at least briefly, considered looking into tuition deadlines and whether or not I could back out and just say, "Peace law school, nice knowing you." I think it's a little early to go to that extreme, however. Of course, by the time it becomes appropriate to panic, it's too late.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:We had a panel of firm recruiters talk to us before OCI at my school, and they specifically told us they look at transfers as if they were still at their old schools. They use the rubric they would use at the former school, with the same cutoffs.



I've also heard this from a few sources. I guess the upside to transferring isn't a better chance once the firm is looking at you, but rather a better chance of them even looking in the first place.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I guess the reality is that you aren't really a student at your new school. All you are is a so and so % student from your old school in a new place. The firms that wouldn't have taken you seriously had you stayed aren't going to suddenly change their mind about you simply because you force them to meet with you via a lottery. Doesn't matter how wonderful the interaction or how good your personality if they wouldn't have hired you anyway.

So the main focus essentially becomes firms that heavily recruit from your old school, or less selective firms that are on par with the ones that heavily recruit from your old school. Essentially, your only realistic options are the exact same ones you had before you transferred. So I am still a so and so % student from my old school, just in a new location. I still have the same opportunities available to me, and I still have the same restrictions confining me. Yet I am paying tens of thousands more. I'm not sure how I ever justified this as a logical decision. Guess I was starry-eyed and let my heart dictate, rather than my brain. This is the same stupid impulse that led me to bid on firms beyond my reach. Serves me right for not thinking with my brain.


I totally hear you and this was the constant counter-argument I heard and used myself to transferring - logically it doesn't make sense. The thing is, the results say otherwise. Transfers get to interview with firms that weren't recruiting from their old school and they are (on the whole) successful. Who knows why, because I totally agree that it logically doesn't make any sense - why couldn't you just send a resume/CL/transcript to the same firm from old school and then get a screener, CB, offer, etc.? I guess we can just chalk this up as one more thing about law school that doesn't make any sense.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:38 pm

I don't think I would have to "learn to love" a lower paying field of law - like I said in OP, I'm not BigLaw or bust. However, I will have to evaluate what life would be like pulling in 40-50k with 180k debt. People obviously do it, but I really don't know much about how difficult it is to do and what their lifestyles are like.


Here's a good website to check out:

http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/2 ... -poor.html

The site above hasn't been updated in awhile, but it gives a good picture of what life is like as a temporary doc review "coder," which is where most OCI strikeout victims end up.

Also check some of my old TLS posts to get an idea of what NYC personal injury shitlaw practice is like.

Honestly, if you get dinged by all the OCI shops, you might want to consider just dropping out. You could then save 3 semesters of additional tuition and at least stop tossing good money after bad. It sucks to have such a large "sunk cost," but the chances of ever making north of 65-75 K outside Biglaw are slim to none, and Slim just shit his pants now that the DOW is under 11 K and the economy is pulling a 2008 all over again.

Here's a typical temp gig ad from yesterday's NYC craigslist:

--LinkRemoved--

Trouble for you guys is that even shitty doc review temp jobs now mostly want at least a year of e-discovery experience. So even 12-36 months after bar admission you're only making $30 an hour with no stability or health benefits, and these gigs are usually only a few weeks here and there.
Last edited by areyouinsane on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:We had a panel of firm recruiters talk to us before OCI at my school, and they specifically told us they look at transfers as if they were still at their old schools. They use the rubric they would use at the former school, with the same cutoffs.



I've also heard this from a few sources. I guess the upside to transferring isn't a better chance once the firm is looking at you, but rather a better chance of them even looking in the first place.


Yeah it's kind of a crapshoot, it sounds...i wish there were better stats for transfers, considering it seems like there are basically two groups of firms: those that view transfers positively and those that will basically give you the courtesy interview and that's it. with only a limited number of bids, it would be nice to have a better idea of which firms give transfers a fair shot and which ones don't.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:We had a panel of firm recruiters talk to us before OCI at my school, and they specifically told us they look at transfers as if they were still at their old schools. They use the rubric they would use at the former school, with the same cutoffs.


Firm recruiters or the attorneys filling out the evals? How much say do recruiters actually have in deciding who gets hired?

I can think of half a dozen transfer students I know personally where this wasn't even remotely the case.


I think it is going to vary from firm to firm. I spoke with a 3L transfer who was told by his firm that he summered with that he would have never even have gotten a screener if he didn't transfer to T14. It is a strange concept, evaluating transfers, that's for sure.

MrAnon wrote:These threads are great. Now you understand what a crapshoot the whole thing is? There have been people on these boards for years warning about attending LS but they always get yelled down. Law is not so much fun when you've been passed on by biglaw, and even in biglaw life ain't so great (but its better than the alternatives).

I would encourage you to be completely honest with yourself as fall tuition deadlines approach. Do I really want to do another two years of school just like last year, with the only certainty ahead being that biglaw is no longer available and I will have to learn to love a lower paying field of law? Don't be fooled by the school administration encouraging you to stay the course. Their only interest is keeping you in the system and paying your fall tuition. And check out jdunderground.com to learn about alternatives to biglaw.


I don't think I would have to "learn to love" a lower paying field of law - like I said in OP, I'm not BigLaw or bust. However, I will have to evaluate what life would be like pulling in 40-50k with 180k debt. People obviously do it, but I really don't know much about how difficult it is to do and what their lifestyles are like.

I will admit that I have, at least briefly, considered looking into tuition deadlines and whether or not I could back out and just say, "Peace law school, nice knowing you." I think it's a little early to go to that extreme, however. Of course, by the time it becomes appropriate to panic, it's too late.




I would say that if you even considered briefly the tuition deadline then that means its time to go, you were in it for the glory. Not ragging on you in particular, but what person who is committed to being a lawyer would do that.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:48 pm

MrAnon wrote:I would say that if you even considered briefly the tuition deadline then that means its time to go, you were in it for the glory. Not ragging on you in particular, but what person who is committed to being a lawyer would do that.


Hey man, life is not sunshine and rainbows. I have absolutely loved every law school class I've been in and my summer work. I've had an idea that I wanted to do this for a long time and nothing has changed my mind about it. But everything has a price, and at some point you have to ask yourself if your "dream" is even feasible.

The fact is it is just very, very hard to become a lawyer today. The tuition is outrageous, the employment opportunities are scarce, and the few people who are in any position to change anything don't care.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:50 pm

It might not be a bad idea to start learning some doc review systems/software right now as a 2 L, so that you might be able to score a $20 to $30 an hour temp gig once you're admitted:

http://law.lexisnexis.com/concordance/Training

Check w/ your lawschool's Lexis rep and see if they also offer training on Ringtail and other coding software systems. You also might be able to register with the temp agencies right now, and simply update your resume once you're bar admitted.

HireCounsel is not too bad to work for and have lots of gigs in NYC, Philly, DC, Chicago etc. Some are even "entry level" like this one:

http://www.hirecounsel.com/jobs_search_ ... hp?id=1145

Bad thing is that they have very crappy worksites- I worked at their space on 30th street in NY a couple years ago and we had to bring our own paper towels and toilet paper b/c they rarely stock the restrooms or break room.
Last edited by areyouinsane on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:50 pm

This sort of doom and gloom is outrageous. As a T-14 transfer, even if you strike out at OCI, you have a degree that will follow you the rest of your life. I know it's scary to not have many callbacks (right now...I'm right there with y'all), but unless you transferred from a T-20, you're in a better position than 99% of your former classmates. Yes, the economy is bad, but if you have social skills and a T-14 degree you won't be out on the street. Your life is not over.

If you DO happen to strike out at OCI you work with your school's career services department for the next two years, you WILL find something. It may not be what you've always dreamed of, but more likely than not it'll pay the bills.

I understand times are tough, and as a transfer student myself (with a very precarious OCI situation), I understand the fear. At the same time, I think you're doing just as much of a disservice to the impressionable 0Ls out there as the LS admins who run around trumpeting 160K like its the norm. The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. I hope we can all realize that sooner or later.




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