Feeling Extremely Down

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MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I agree with your statement that transfer students are more sociable and normal, but my statement stands. I'm sorry but the truth is that the native students "got it" from the beginning. They either held higher GPAs in college or they scored better on the LSAT or both. For whatever reason, the T14 wanted them out of college and didnt want the transfer. Lawyers are keen to that. They don't want one-year wonders who are going to return to old habits after they emerge from school. They want the person who made an awesome LSAT score from the start, who did well all the way through college, who didnt need time to figure things out. Chances are that the native student picked up on a few things along the way that will be helpful in practice. Sociability skills, while helpful, dont aren't part of the bottom line when it comes to associates.


Again, you overgeneralize. Most transfers do just as well as, if not better than, non-transfers at OCI. You have no data to back up your argument, so it fails.

There might be the occasional interviewer/lawyer here or there who looks down upon transfers. That's fine - I don't want to work for that guy anyway. But my experience has been the opposite. The lawyers and interviewers I've met are aware that transfers are motivated, hard workers. Hence the callbacks.


Is the person who started at the school as a 1L any less motivated or hard working? Or are you saying they are just naturally gifted and talented?

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IAFG
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby IAFG » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3L transfer here, and I'm going to have to more or less agree. Although most of the transfers at my school strike me as cooler/more laid-back/more personable than the non-transfers, there are a few REALLY douchey/gunnerish transfers too.

Are you sure they just aren't cooler/more personable TO YOU because they find you relatable, as a fellow transfer?


Yes

For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything special about people who get into T14s in the first place, and there's certainly not and je ne sais quoi or whatever. I just have personally found that law students are law students are law students: aspie, awkward, gunnerish, etc. Transfers included.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:49 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3L transfer here, and I'm going to have to more or less agree. Although most of the transfers at my school strike me as cooler/more laid-back/more personable than the non-transfers, there are a few REALLY douchey/gunnerish transfers too.

Are you sure they just aren't cooler/more personable TO YOU because they find you relatable, as a fellow transfer?


Yes

For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything special about people who get into T14s in the first place, and there's certainly not and je ne sais quoi or whatever. I just have personally found that law students are law students are law students: aspie, awkward, gunnerish, etc. Transfers included.

Agreed.

MrAnon is painting with wide brush strokes and overgeneralizing. Whatever kept a student out of the school initially, be it GPA or LSAT, has little bearing on how they then actually performed in law school their first year.

Certainly the admissions staff wasn't screening for that certain je ne sais quoi. They were primarily basing their initial decision on rough metrics of success. Once someone has a year of law school under their belt, they have a much better predictor from which to anticipate future success.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:57 am

Little bearing? They rocked 1L where the rest of the competition was on the same admissions matrix and where the rest of the competition is going to have trouble making a living in the legal profession. Could they have rocked 1L at Harvard? Well they couldnt get in to the school to begin with so we really don't know do we?

Admissions staff wants people who can pay tuition and won't embarrass the school and will probably pass the bar and be employed.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:01 pm

MrAnon wrote:Little bearing? They rocked 1L where the rest of the competition was on the same admissions matrix and where the rest of the competition is going to have trouble making a living in the legal profession. Could they have rocked 1L at Harvard? Well they couldnt get in to the school to begin with so we really don't know do we?


I can only speak for Columbia, but the overwhelming majority of transfers end up making the cutoff for being Stone Scholars (roughly the top 1/3 of the class). That said, not many transfers make the cutoff for Kent (given to the top 5-10% of each class). Yes, the typical law student is more driven/focussed during 1L year. However, I think it would be safe to say that most Columbia transfers would have been able to hold their own as 1Ls at Columbia, though they probably wouldn't have been in the top 10%.

Edit: I realized that there's no reason for this post to be anonymous. Any way that I can make it non-anon? Thanks.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:06 pm

MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.


LOL. It would take a real aspie fuck to define je ne sais quoi as success at logic games. Nothing exudes the refined, sophisticated air of a native T14 student like being able to quickly figure out where passengers A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are sitting on a fucking airplane.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.


LOL. It would take a real aspie fuck to define je ne sais quoi as success at logic games. Nothing exudes the refined, sophisticated air of a native T14 student like being able to quickly figure out where passengers A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are sitting on a fucking airplane.


MrAnon has a bit of a point. I started at a T10 and a lot of my interviewers came from my T10. As a consequence, it was common to have conversations about favorite professors, unique aspects of our culture, etc. I can imagine transfers will be on their back feet in that respect, and it might hurt some - and also be totally out of control, because there's no way to know in advance how either the firm or the person interviewing you will respond.

Now it's possible MrAnon really meant to be douchey, but there's an underlying kernel of truth. I think it will be especially hard for a T14 -> T14 transfer where your interviewer won't be able to assume you were just looking for better career prospects (hardly a sin).

And for what it's worth, my extremely selective large law firm had at least two transfers in its class, both of whom came from T1 but not T20 schools and transferred well into the T14.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.


LOL. It would take a real aspie fuck to define je ne sais quoi as success at logic games. Nothing exudes the refined, sophisticated air of a native T14 student like being able to quickly figure out where passengers A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are sitting on a fucking airplane.


Well, what are you going to do if a client comes to you with two problems: 1) a complex securities litigation matter. 2) he also wants to start a cookie factory, but his machinery can only create cookies in accordance with several conditions. Snickerdoodles can only be baked on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. However, chocolate chip cookies can only be baked on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays. If snickerdoodles are made on Thursdays, then chocolate chip cookies can't be made on Mondays. Also, if the client goes to a gay bath-house earlier in the day, he can only bake peanut butter cookies for the rest of that day. Failure to comply with these rules will cause the cookie baking machine to explode and injure all people within a three-block radius.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Little bearing? They rocked 1L where the rest of the competition was on the same admissions matrix and where the rest of the competition is going to have trouble making a living in the legal profession. Could they have rocked 1L at Harvard? Well they couldnt get in to the school to begin with so we really don't know do we?


I can only speak for Columbia, but the overwhelming majority of transfers end up making the cutoff for being Stone Scholars (roughly the top 1/3 of the class). That said, not many transfers make the cutoff for Kent (given to the top 5-10% of each class). Yes, the typical law student is more driven/focussed during 1L year. However, I think it would be safe to say that most Columbia transfers would have been able to hold their own as 1Ls at Columbia, though they probably wouldn't have been in the top 10%.

Edit: I realized that there's no reason for this post to be anonymous. Any way that I can make it non-anon? Thanks.


Kent is NOT fixed when it comes to each class.

Its top 3% for 1Ls, top 8% for 2L's, and top 11% for 3L's.

Also Stone gets much easier 2L and 3L year and is definitely NOT top 1/3.

Its top 30% for 1Ls, however, for 2Ls its top 40%, and top 45% for 3L's.

lawschoolROCKS22
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby lawschoolROCKS22 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Little bearing? They rocked 1L where the rest of the competition was on the same admissions matrix and where the rest of the competition is going to have trouble making a living in the legal profession. Could they have rocked 1L at Harvard? Well they couldnt get in to the school to begin with so we really don't know do we?


I can only speak for Columbia, but the overwhelming majority of transfers end up making the cutoff for being Stone Scholars (roughly the top 1/3 of the class). That said, not many transfers make the cutoff for Kent (given to the top 5-10% of each class). Yes, the typical law student is more driven/focussed during 1L year. However, I think it would be safe to say that most Columbia transfers would have been able to hold their own as 1Ls at Columbia, though they probably wouldn't have been in the top 10%.

Edit: I realized that there's no reason for this post to be anonymous. Any way that I can make it non-anon? Thanks.


Kent is NOT fixed when it comes to each class.

Its top 3% for 1Ls, top 8% for 2L's, and top 11% for 3L's.

Also Stone gets much easier 2L and 3L year and is definitely NOT top 1/3.

Its top 30% for 1Ls, however, for 2Ls its top 40%, and top 45% for 3L's.


Hmm, the top 33% vs. top 40% distinction DOES radically alter the message that I was trying to get across in my post. Thank you for pointing that out.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.


LOL. It would take a real aspie fuck to define je ne sais quoi as success at logic games. Nothing exudes the refined, sophisticated air of a native T14 student like being able to quickly figure out where passengers A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are sitting on a fucking airplane.


Well, what are you going to do if a client comes to you with two problems: 1) a complex securities litigation matter. 2) he also wants to start a cookie factory, but his machinery can only create cookies in accordance with several conditions. Snickerdoodles can only be baked on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. However, chocolate chip cookies can only be baked on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays. If snickerdoodles are made on Thursdays, then chocolate chip cookies can't be made on Mondays. Also, if the client goes to a gay bath-house earlier in the day, he can only bake peanut butter cookies for the rest of that day. Failure to comply with these rules will cause the cookie baking machine to explode and injure all people within a three-block radius.


What the successful transfer student will do is take his/her time and figure out the correct answer, since in real life you only have one such problem to figure out instead of having to race through 25 of these in 30 minutes. You will then bill the client for the hour it took you to figure out instead of billing for the 12 minutes it took the aspie who got a 177 on the LSAT.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:33 pm

If you think that a T-14 transfer who was in the top 10-15% of their 1L class at a T-30 would have had trouble getting top 1/3 at their transfer school, you're giving T-14 students way too much credit. Let's not forget how much work ethic contributes to law school success. Plenty of people get into T-14s and then get lazy. Transfers are often people with the initiative to succeed anywhere.

And let's not forget about the kids who took the LSAT on a whim, did well (but not T-14 well), and then went to a T1 and realized that taking $2000 courses to learn how to do logic puzzles wasn't a necessary prerequisite to excelling in law school after all. I think there are more of those people out there than one might think.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.


LOL. It would take a real aspie fuck to define je ne sais quoi as success at logic games. Nothing exudes the refined, sophisticated air of a native T14 student like being able to quickly figure out where passengers A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are sitting on a fucking airplane.


I've met grads who started at Columbia and I've met grads who transferred to Columbia, both finishing at Stone Scholars. Off paper there is a difference.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:43 pm

Also, don't forget transfers who are splitters and didn't get into T14's because of terrible undergrad grades -- often grades from years ago. A higher GPA would have made me competitive for the school I got into as a transfer with my LSAT. My 1L grades and work experience are WAY more indicative of the type of worker I am than grades from years ago (which basically discounts the "one year wonder" theory). I think it's ridiculous to generalize that people lack "je ne sais quoi" because they weren't motivated at 18, but could have easily changed by 28.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:49 pm

How does it discount? This is evidence of how quickly you matured in life, how seriously you took college, how well you understood college courses. If you got a lousy college GPA in humanities and then rocked 1L I think there is good reason to believe you just decided to turn on the jets when you got to law school. Without anything else to go on that is the conclusion many will jump to. Do I want to pay someone $160,000 who is going to be off and on when something is inspiring them? No, I want the person who works diligently all their life and shows consistent performance since the age of 18, who shows maturity early on, who was exposed to ivy league ideas in undergrad and ivy league ideas as a 1L, not some idiot who bumbled around a state school system, rocked 1L at Cardozo, and transferred to NYU. Firms dont want people who "got their act together" they want people who had their act together to begin with.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:54 pm

MrAnon wrote:How does it discount? This is evidence of how quickly you matured in life, how seriously you took college, how well you understood college courses. If you got a lousy college GPA in humanities and then rocked 1L I think there is good reason to believe you just decided to turn on the jets when you got to law school. Without anything else to go on that is the conclusion many will jump to. Do I want to pay someone $160,000 who is going to be off and on when something is inspiring them? No, I want the person who works diligently all their life and shows consistent performance since the age of 18, who shows maturity early on, who was exposed to ivy league ideas in undergrad and ivy league ideas as a 1L, not some idiot who bumbled around a state school system, rocked 1L at Cardozo, and transferred to NYU. Firms dont want people who "got their act together" they want people who had their act together to begin with.


Your over-generalizations and absurd assumptions are both ridiculous and laughable. The logic on which you premise your argument is as flimsy as any I've seen on this site, and that is saying quite a bit.

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minnbills
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby minnbills » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:54 pm

lol at this "je ne sais quoi" argument.

The difference between T14 and non-T14 could be as simple as a few questions on the LSAT or a botched class when you were in 9th grade.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:57 pm

minnbills wrote:lol at this "je ne sais quoi" argument.

The difference between T14 and non-T14 could be as simple as a few questions on the LSAT or a botched class when you were in 9th grade.


It could be the difference between feeling good on LSAT day, and having some bad cheese the day before and feeling a bit off. Lol at fools like Mr. Anon trying to argue that its some long-standing difference in ability, motivation, etc.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:01 pm

MrAnon wrote:How does it discount? This is evidence of how quickly you matured in life, how seriously you took college, how well you understood college courses. If you got a lousy college GPA in humanities and then rocked 1L I think there is good reason to believe you just decided to turn on the jets when you got to law school. Without anything else to go on that is the conclusion many will jump to. Do I want to pay someone $160,000 who is going to be off and on when something is inspiring them? No, I want the person who works diligently all their life and shows consistent performance since the age of 18, who shows maturity early on, who was exposed to ivy league ideas in undergrad and ivy league ideas as a 1L, not some idiot who bumbled around a state school system, rocked 1L at Cardozo, and transferred to NYU. Firms dont want people who "got their act together" they want people who had their act together to begin with.


cravath called me back even after looking at my failtastic sub 3.0 ug transcript. Firms don't care.

Anonymous User
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:05 pm

.

areyouinsane
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby areyouinsane » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:06 pm

I swear if Career Services were on board the Titanic at midnight on April 15 they would demand the ship stay on course en route to NY Harbor and advise not to board lifeboats YET lest we turn this thing around.


Can't really blame Career Services- the school itself was the "captain" who drove the boat thru a known ice field in the dark at full speed, despite receipt of multiple warnings that icebergs were ahead. They knowingly take on way too many people for the amount of jobs available every single year. But unlike the Titanic, the law school deans sure as hell won't go down w/ the ship.

Just like the Titanic, there aren't enough lifeboat seats for everyone. The schools leave harbor knowing that a large % of the class will simply drown, or struggle in the water for some flotsam to grab hold of. Anyone not first class (i.e, top grades and law review) are just steerage passengers who can drown anonymously. No biggie.

crazyblink653
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby crazyblink653 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:06 pm

MrAnon wrote:How does it discount? This is evidence of how quickly you matured in life, how seriously you took college, how well you understood college courses. If you got a lousy college GPA in humanities and then rocked 1L I think there is good reason to believe you just decided to turn on the jets when you got to law school. Without anything else to go on that is the conclusion many will jump to. Do I want to pay someone $160,000 who is going to be off and on when something is inspiring them? No, I want the person who works diligently all their life and shows consistent performance since the age of 18, who shows maturity early on, who was exposed to ivy league ideas in undergrad and ivy league ideas as a 1L, not some idiot who bumbled around a state school system, rocked 1L at Cardozo, and transferred to NYU. Firms dont want people who "got their act together" they want people who had their act together to begin with.


wow....and i thought you had already hit your nadir.. not only is your argument RIDICULOUS and misinformed, but also the exact type of thing that employers cringe when they hear. you're the type of person i've heard law firm recruiters tell me again and again they steer clear of--even with decent grades at a decent school--because of their sense of self-entitlement and arrogance.

if you honestly think a law firm is going to choose the douchey know-it-all with mediocre grades from a T10 school over the T10 transfer with WE in the REAL world and who excelled as a 1L, you're in for a rude awakening...i'm sure a handful of places like that exist and, not coincidentally, they're probably the firms that most students would hate to work at. so enjoy your time there. i'm sure you'll fit right in.

MrAnon
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:09 pm

who said anything about WE? And what kind of work experience are we talking about? LOL @ thinking that law firms do not suffer from prestige driven hiring.

crazyblink653
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby crazyblink653 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:19 pm

MrAnon wrote:who said anything about WE? And what kind of work experience are we talking about? LOL @ thinking that law firms do not suffer from prestige driven hiring.


not sure what you're driving at here...i never implied that law firms aren't still prestige-conscious. my disagreement stems from your apparent belief that all law firms would look negatively on transfers to prestigious schools because they didn't have the "goods" to get in on their first try. that's ridiculous. law firms only care about the prestige of your school so that they can tell their clients we have X number of students from H, Y, S, C, C, N, etc. once you've transferred, they can STILL tell clients that because you're graduating with a degree from that school. I'll concede there are undoubtedly a handful of firms and hiring people who may harbor the same elitist principles as you, but i don't think they're as prevalent as your posts seem to imply.

09042014
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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby 09042014 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:35 pm

Inter-t14 transfers are weird as fuck because there is zero benefit in doing the transfer.




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