Feeling Extremely Down

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:44 pm

MrAnon wrote:At what point do you call it a day at OCI though? There's always one more interview or one more CB. At some point you need to shift strategy and drastically.

I'm not sure I quite understand you. You do OCI and interview as much as you can. If you get CBs, you do that. If you don't, you shift your strategy.

For the first part of the process, OCI, I don't think you ever need to "call it a day."

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby bjsesq » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:45 pm

MrAnon wrote:At what point do you call it a day at OCI though? There's always one more interview or one more CB. At some point you need to shift strategy and drastically.


You don't shift by moving away from selling yourself. It's not about changing the package completely, but rethinking the manner you are doing the packaging. You must paint a coherent picture of who you are and why that person is a great fit at the firm. Presentation may need to change, but certainly not the central substance.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:41 pm

I swear if Career Services were on board the Titanic at midnight on April 15 they would demand the ship stay on course en route to NY Harbor and advise not to board lifeboats YET lest we turn this thing around.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby bjsesq » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:43 pm

MrAnon wrote:I swear if Career Services were on board the Titanic at midnight on April 15 they would demand the ship stay on course en route to NY Harbor and advise not to board lifeboats YET lest we turn this thing around.


Why? Because some people fail? You want to harp on someone, do it at the university for admitting so many people.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby minnbills » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:45 pm

bjsesq wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I swear if Career Services were on board the Titanic at midnight on April 15 they would demand the ship stay on course en route to NY Harbor and advise not to board lifeboats YET lest we turn this thing around.


Why? Because some people fail? You want to harp on someone, do it at the university for admitting so many people.


But how many is "some" right now?

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby bjsesq » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:46 pm

minnbills wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I swear if Career Services were on board the Titanic at midnight on April 15 they would demand the ship stay on course en route to NY Harbor and advise not to board lifeboats YET lest we turn this thing around.


Why? Because some people fail? You want to harp on someone, do it at the university for admitting so many people.


But how many is "some" right now?


Depends on the school. At my school last year, roughly 30-40% of people who tried.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:49 pm

I'm just trying to get my ahead around the disparity between my mass mail interviews and my OCI ones so that I can formulate a game plan for the rest of OCI and re-work my approach. I've been doing very well through mass-mail interviews, but OCI doesn't look like its shaping up the same (could change, but who knows). Could this be because the mass mailings pre-screened me and were looking more toward my personality, while the OCI interviews are still hung up on things other than "fit" since they haven't had a chance to screen me in advance? Could it be that, since the timeframe of OCI interviews is shorter, I'm not condensing in all the info and points that have led to my mass-mail interview success? Could it be that, during OCI, I'm just one fish out of hundreds, whereas during a mass mail interview, I am likely one of just a select few people interviewing on a given day? Or perhaps it could be that my mass mailing interviews are in a market where I have very significant ties, whereas the ties aren't quite as strong to the OCI firms (though still pretty strong).

I just want to understand what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to change it up for the next 2 days of OCI. I still have about half my interviews left, so there are still many opportunities to salvage. I want to make sure I take advantage of this.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm just trying to get my ahead around the disparity between my mass mail interviews and my OCI ones so that I can formulate a game plan for the rest of OCI and re-work my approach. I've been doing very well through mass-mail interviews, but OCI doesn't look like its shaping up the same (could change, but who knows). Could this be because the mass mailings pre-screened me and were looking more toward my personality, while the OCI interviews are still hung up on things other than "fit" since they haven't had a chance to screen me in advance? Could it be that, since the timeframe of OCI interviews is shorter, I'm not condensing in all the info and points that have led to my mass-mail interview success? Could it be that, during OCI, I'm just one fish out of hundreds, whereas during a mass mail interview, I am likely one of just a select few people interviewing on a given day? Or perhaps it could be that my mass mailing interviews are in a market where I have very significant ties, whereas the ties aren't quite as strong to the OCI firms (though still pretty strong).

I just want to understand what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to change it up for the next 2 days of OCI. I still have about half my interviews left, so there are still many opportunities to salvage. I want to make sure I take advantage of this.


Just a guess, but maybe because when employers come to your new school, they're looking to snatch students from your new school (and not from your old school). You might be a perfectly acceptable candidate when you apply to them directly. But you're not really a student from your new school yet (in the sense that you don't have any grades from there and don't know any profs yet, etc...).

If you go to the grocery store with the intention of buying apples (because you have a certain target for the number of apples that you need), and you come across lots of oranges, you might really like oranges but not buy any during that shopping trip simply you aren't looking for oranges.

Edit: I think that you're also trying to attribute too much meaning to something that is pretty random/chaotic right now. Maybe things were different before ITE because firms had several decades to perfect knowing what students to go after, but you really might just be falling through the cracks (through no fault of your own).

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just a guess, but maybe because when employers come to your new school, they're looking to snatch students from your new school (and not from your old school). You might be a perfectly acceptable candidate when you apply to them directly. But you're not really a student from your new school yet (in the sense that you don't have any grades from there and don't know any profs yet, etc...).

If you go to the grocery store with the intention of buying apples (because you have a certain target for the number of apples that you need), and you come across lots of oranges, you might really like oranges but not buy any during that shopping trip simply you aren't looking for oranges.

Edit: I think that you're also trying to attribute too much meaning to something that is pretty random/chaotic right now. Maybe things were different before ITE because firms had several decades to perfect knowing what students to go after, but you really might just be falling through the cracks (through no fault of your own).


So you are suggesting that OP is reducing his/her chances because firms are coming to OP's new school looking for students from the new school, but s/he isn't yet a "real" student from the new school? I think that is borderline ridiculous. Associates are a marketing tool for firms, and I think transfers basically have the same to offer as they did at the old school, except now they will have a shinier JD, which adds to being able to market the associate to their clients. Also, a lot of firms may not bother responding to mass mailling from qualified students at schools they don't visit for OCI. However, they are often receptive to the candidate if they present themselves at the higher ranked school's OCI.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just a guess, but maybe because when employers come to your new school, they're looking to snatch students from your new school (and not from your old school). You might be a perfectly acceptable candidate when you apply to them directly. But you're not really a student from your new school yet (in the sense that you don't have any grades from there and don't know any profs yet, etc...).

If you go to the grocery store with the intention of buying apples (because you have a certain target for the number of apples that you need), and you come across lots of oranges, you might really like oranges but not buy any during that shopping trip simply you aren't looking for oranges.

Edit: I think that you're also trying to attribute too much meaning to something that is pretty random/chaotic right now. Maybe things were different before ITE because firms had several decades to perfect knowing what students to go after, but you really might just be falling through the cracks (through no fault of your own).


So you are suggesting that OP is reducing his/her chances because firms are coming to OP's new school looking for students from the new school, but s/he isn't yet a "real" student from the new school? I think that is borderline ridiculous. Associates are a marketing tool for firms, and I think transfers basically have the same to offer as they did at the old school, except now they will have a shinier JD, which adds to being able to market the associate to their clients. Also, a lot of firms may not bother responding to mass mailling from qualified students at schools they don't visit for OCI. However, they are often receptive to the candidate if they present themselves at the higher ranked school's OCI.


How is that borderline ridiculous? I'm a transfer student myself, so I didn't say what I said as some kind of knock on transfer students. However, if you don't have grades at your new school, don't know any profs, aren't on a journal yet, etc... how are firms supposed to evaluate you by the same criteria that they evaluate other students at your new school by? I have no doubt that firms like being able to shop the fancy new JD to clients, but a lot of the interviewers are tired, over-worked, and coming to your new school looking for certain things in order to help them dwindle down a huge pile of applicants into a smaller/more manageable one. And, when they see you (a transfer student), several of the usual holds that they're looking to grab onto aren't there. However, when you apply directly, they aren't going to open your application with that certain set of expectations (assuming that they actually take the time to open it).

Also, just emphasizing that my post was a guess. I've never worked in recruiting, and I don't claim to be an expert in this area.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How is that borderline ridiculous? I'm a transfer student myself, so I didn't say what I said as some kind of knock on transfer students. However, if you don't have grades at your new school, don't know any profs, aren't on a journal yet, etc... how are firms supposed to evaluate you by the same criteria that they evaluate other students at your new school by? I have no doubt that firms like being able to shop the fancy new JD to clients, but a lot of the interviewers are tired, over-worked, and coming to your new school looking for certain things in order to help them dwindle down a huge pile of applicants into a smaller/more manageable one. And, when they see you (a transfer student), several of the usual holds that they're looking to grab onto aren't there. However, when you apply directly, they aren't going to open your application with that certain set of expectations (assuming that they actually take the time to open it).

Also, just emphasizing that my post was a guess. I've never worked in recruiting, and I don't claim to be an expert in this area.


Same poster here you just responded to - I am also a transfer student. I think every firm that might have hired you at your old school's OCI will evaluate your candidacy, at worst, the same as they would have at the old school. Then you can add in screeners you never would have got at the old school. I have already received CBs and seen other transfers get CBs from firms who don't hire anyone from the old school. I mass-mailed one firm around July 1 (as a student at my old school), never got any response, transferred, got an OCI screener with that firm, and now have a CB. Of course my point can't be proven by one anecdote, but I think in a worst-case scenario, a firm will evaluate you as if you had not transferred. I am sure there are some firms which aren't transfer-friendly, but at my OCI, transfers have CBs at virtually every large firm which has even CBs to anyone so far.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Alyosha » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm just trying to get my ahead around the disparity between my mass mail interviews and my OCI ones so that I can formulate a game plan for the rest of OCI and re-work my approach. I've been doing very well through mass-mail interviews, but OCI doesn't look like its shaping up the same (could change, but who knows). Could this be because the mass mailings pre-screened me and were looking more toward my personality, while the OCI interviews are still hung up on things other than "fit" since they haven't had a chance to screen me in advance? Could it be that, since the timeframe of OCI interviews is shorter, I'm not condensing in all the info and points that have led to my mass-mail interview success? Could it be that, during OCI, I'm just one fish out of hundreds, whereas during a mass mail interview, I am likely one of just a select few people interviewing on a given day? Or perhaps it could be that my mass mailing interviews are in a market where I have very significant ties, whereas the ties aren't quite as strong to the OCI firms (though still pretty strong).

I just want to understand what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to change it up for the next 2 days of OCI. I still have about half my interviews left, so there are still many opportunities to salvage. I want to make sure I take advantage of this.


There may not be a disparity at all. At my 2L summer firm I talked with a lot people who have been OCI interviewers. Almost every one said it was hard to remember, much less differentiate, the 20 people they interviewed that day. There is a lot of luck and randomness to the process. Your mass mail interviewers didn't have to do that.

You said you had a lot more luck with your mass mail interviews. Does that mean you have an offer from one of them?

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:59 pm

Alyosha wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm just trying to get my ahead around the disparity between my mass mail interviews and my OCI ones so that I can formulate a game plan for the rest of OCI and re-work my approach. I've been doing very well through mass-mail interviews, but OCI doesn't look like its shaping up the same (could change, but who knows). Could this be because the mass mailings pre-screened me and were looking more toward my personality, while the OCI interviews are still hung up on things other than "fit" since they haven't had a chance to screen me in advance? Could it be that, since the timeframe of OCI interviews is shorter, I'm not condensing in all the info and points that have led to my mass-mail interview success? Could it be that, during OCI, I'm just one fish out of hundreds, whereas during a mass mail interview, I am likely one of just a select few people interviewing on a given day? Or perhaps it could be that my mass mailing interviews are in a market where I have very significant ties, whereas the ties aren't quite as strong to the OCI firms (though still pretty strong).

I just want to understand what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to change it up for the next 2 days of OCI. I still have about half my interviews left, so there are still many opportunities to salvage. I want to make sure I take advantage of this.


There may not be a disparity at all. At my 2L summer firm I talked with a lot people who have been OCI interviewers. Almost every one said it was hard to remember, much less differentiate, the 20 people they interviewed that day. There is a lot of luck and randomness to the process. Your mass mail interviewers didn't have to do that.

You said you had a lot more luck with your mass mail interviews. Does that mean you have an offer from one of them?


Yeah, one turned into an immediate offer. In total, I've done about 10 interviews on the side, including with a few Vault firms, but mostly large regional firms. A few quickly turned into callbacks, and I'm getting a bunch of good vibes and feedback. Thats why I was so confident going into OCI, since I had 2 weeks of "practice" interviews under my belt, a comfort zone speaking to employers, and the benefit of knowing how positive the results have been so far. I just sort of expected it to continue over into OCI.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:35 am

To the poster above: based on the advice ITT, I'm personally thinking of revamping my approach from my initial callbacks to OCI. For me, the firms I've already done mass-mail CB's interview at my old school and probably would have at least done a screener even without my new "shiny" T10 (though I obviously don't know the results so maybe a revamp was needed anyway). I think as the poster above illustrated, I think more of a hard sell is needed when you're not really a "traditional" applicant. Obviously, the danger in this is crossing into "asshole" territory and some firms like the "gunner" mentality more than others; not that most of us transfers were gunners in the traditional sense.

As the V15 recruiter said, "you have to be really something special" and as much as the phrase "special snowflake" is loathed on this board, I think to be successful at OCI as a transfer, you do have to convince the recruiter that you ARE that "special snowflake" (after all, you already defied the odds and beat 90-95+% of your classmates who won't even sniff an OCI interview and are already basically resigned to the areyouinsane/MrAnon fate; and those people still have the TTT stench* and will always have the TTT stench*)

Also to the poster above: You have an offer and 3 CB's and a bunch of mass-mail CB's. Therefore you have more wiggle room to really push in your interviews and to take some chances and change up what you're doing. Worst case scenario you take the firm you have. There are people ITT who have a lot more to be worried about (even though I have a feeling it's not all over for them yet either).

Personally I'll be at Michigan, so we haven't done OCI yet -- which, TBH, I'm kind of thankful for, since this thread has some very very helpful advice from many of the posters.

*Yes, this is hyperbole. Most of us liked our old schools and didn't feel they were TTT or "stinky" or bad at all and still have plenty of respect for our classmates and friends who still go there. I know I did and still do.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:01 am

my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:11 am

MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.

Give me a break! So maybe someone who initially matriculated scored two points higher than a transfer did on the LSAT. That means NOTHING. It doesn't mean that person is smarter, brighter, or a more desirable employee than a transfer. These kinds of generalizations don't hold up under scrutiny. But as long as we ARE generalizing, I might add that all the transfer students I've met at my new T14 are far more sociable, friendly, pleasant to be around, and NORMAL than those I've met who matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree, which is why my fellow transfers have multiple callbacks.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby IAFG » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:my 2 cents is that transfer students in my experience often lack that certain je ne sais quoi found in those that matriculated at the school initially. Partners probably agree.

Give me a break! So you scored two points higher than a transfer did on the LSAT. CONGRATS! I have news for you. That means NOTHING.

I think you underestimate what prestige whores lawyers are. I'll bet there's at least a difference of opinion among hiring partners.

I might add that all the transfer students I've met at my new T14 are far more sociable, friendly, pleasant to be around, and NORMAL than those I've met who matriculated at the school initially.

I've met some odd, awkward transfers that re-inforced the "transfers are gunners who had no friends at their old school" stereotype, and others that were as pleasant and sociable as non-law students. I really doubt "all the transfer students" who transferred with you are more normal than the students at your new school.

Unless you go to Chicago now.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby MrAnon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:11 am

I agree with your statement that transfer students are more sociable and normal, but my statement stands. I'm sorry but the truth is that the native students "got it" from the beginning. They either held higher GPAs in college or they scored better on the LSAT or both. For whatever reason, the T14 wanted them out of college and didnt want the transfer. Lawyers are keen to that. They don't want one-year wonders who are going to return to old habits after they emerge from school. They want the person who made an awesome LSAT score from the start, who did well all the way through college, who didnt need time to figure things out. Chances are that the native student picked up on a few things along the way that will be helpful in practice. Sociability skills, while helpful, dont aren't part of the bottom line when it comes to associates.
Last edited by MrAnon on Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:12 am

IAFG wrote:
I might add that all the transfer students I've met at my new T14 are far more sociable, friendly, pleasant to be around, and NORMAL than those I've met who matriculated at the school initially.

I've met some odd, awkward transfers that re-inforced the "transfers are gunners who had no friends at their old school" stereotype, and others that were as pleasant and sociable as non-law students. I really doubt "all the transfer students" who transferred with you are more normal than the students at your new school.

Unless you go to Chicago now.


3L transfer here, and I'm going to have to more or less agree. Although most of the transfers at my school strike me as cooler/more laid-back/more personable than the non-transfers, there are a few REALLY douchey/gunnerish transfers too.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby IAFG » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:3L transfer here, and I'm going to have to more or less agree. Although most of the transfers at my school strike me as cooler/more laid-back/more personable than the non-transfers, there are a few REALLY douchey/gunnerish transfers too.

Are you sure they just aren't cooler/more personable TO YOU because they find you relatable, as a fellow transfer?

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby crazyblink653 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:21 am

MrAnon wrote:I agree with your statement that transfer students are more sociable and normal, but my statement stands. I'm sorry but the truth is that the native students "got it" from the beginning. They either held higher GPAs in college or they scored better on the LSAT or both. For whatever reason, the T14 wanted them out of college and didnt want the transfer. Lawyers are keen to that. They don't want one-year wonders who are going to return to old habits after they emerge from school. They want the person who made an awesome LSAT score from the start, who did well all the way through college, who didnt need time to figure things out. Chances are that the native student picked up on a few things along the way that will be helpful in practice. Sociability skills, while helpful, dont aren't part of the bottom line when it comes to associates.


the more you post on here the more you sound like a disgruntled law student who is pissed that people who were better at law school than him are now taking away his opportunity to snag a big law job with his median grades. seriously, the "native" students "got it" from the beginning? and why do you keep harping on the LSAT? no one gives a shit about it after you're in law school. it's not even a good predictor of LS success.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:21 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3L transfer here, and I'm going to have to more or less agree. Although most of the transfers at my school strike me as cooler/more laid-back/more personable than the non-transfers, there are a few REALLY douchey/gunnerish transfers too.

Are you sure they just aren't cooler/more personable TO YOU because they find you relatable, as a fellow transfer?


Yes

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:23 am

MrAnon wrote:I agree with your statement that transfer students are more sociable and normal, but my statement stands. I'm sorry but the truth is that the native students "got it" from the beginning. They either held higher GPAs in college or they scored better on the LSAT or both. For whatever reason, the T14 wanted them out of college and didnt want the transfer. Lawyers are keen to that. They don't want one-year wonders who are going to return to old habits after they emerge from school. They want the person who made an awesome LSAT score from the start, who did well all the way through college, who didnt need time to figure things out. Chances are that the native student picked up on a few things along the way that will be helpful in practice. Sociability skills, while helpful, dont aren't part of the bottom line when it comes to associates.


Again, you overgeneralize. Most transfers do just as well as, if not better than, non-transfers at OCI. You have no data to back up your argument, so it fails.

There might be the occasional interviewer/lawyer here or there who looks down upon transfers. That's fine - I don't want to work for that guy anyway. But my experience has been the opposite. The lawyers and interviewers I've met are aware that transfers are motivated, hard workers. Hence the callbacks.

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:26 am

crazyblink653 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I agree with your statement that transfer students are more sociable and normal, but my statement stands. I'm sorry but the truth is that the native students "got it" from the beginning. They either held higher GPAs in college or they scored better on the LSAT or both. For whatever reason, the T14 wanted them out of college and didnt want the transfer. Lawyers are keen to that. They don't want one-year wonders who are going to return to old habits after they emerge from school. They want the person who made an awesome LSAT score from the start, who did well all the way through college, who didnt need time to figure things out. Chances are that the native student picked up on a few things along the way that will be helpful in practice. Sociability skills, while helpful, dont aren't part of the bottom line when it comes to associates.


the more you post on here the more you sound like a disgruntled law student who is pissed that people who were better at law school than him are now taking away his opportunity to snag a big law job with his median grades. seriously, the "native" students "got it" from the beginning? and why do you keep harping on the LSAT? no one gives a shit about it after you're in law school. it's not even a good predictor of LS success.

+1

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Re: Feeling Extremely Down

Postby missinglink » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:30 am

MrAnon wrote:I agree with your statement that transfer students are more sociable and normal, but my statement stands. I'm sorry but the truth is that the native students "got it" from the beginning. They either held higher GPAs in college or they scored better on the LSAT or both. For whatever reason, the T14 wanted them out of college and didnt want the transfer. Lawyers are keen to that. They don't want one-year wonders who are going to return to old habits after they emerge from school. They want the person who made an awesome LSAT score from the start, who did well all the way through college, who didnt need time to figure things out. Chances are that the native student picked up on a few things along the way that will be helpful in practice. Sociability skills, while helpful, dont aren't part of the bottom line when it comes to associates.

:roll:

Now you're just trolling.

"Chances are the native student picked up on a few things along the way . . . ."

Like what, exactly?




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