No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Z3RO
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:57 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Z3RO » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:41 pm

http://apps.americanbar.org/lpm/lpt/art ... 2071.shtml

"Because such conduct is so prevalent, malpractice insurance is expensive. The least costly annual premiums for experienced lawyers range from $4,000 to $7,000 per lawyer. It's not surprising that this burden falls heaviest on small firms and solo practitioners. In California, where one-quarter of all lawyers earn $50,000 a year or less (an income level that is beyond many sole practitioners in other parts of the country), nearly 20% of lawyers lack malpractice insurance coverage. A recent survey in Illinois showed that 20% of all lawyers - and 40% of solos - similarly lack coverage."
Last edited by Z3RO on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:41 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:I know it sounds counter-intuitive which is why people keep propagating the myth. Do some research or ask people who have done it (you can pm Areyouinsane etc).


well, no, im not openly disagreeing w/ the sentiment that lawyers who have practiced for a long time may get sued more and thus have even higher malpractice insurance. it does sound counter-intuitive and goes against the anecdotal evidence i have (but really, what good is anecdotal evidence amirite?).

but to be fair, my statement was just malpractice insurance is really high for newly minted grads. i dont know...if that is mutually exclusive with the statement you're trying to push.

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby MrAnon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:42 pm

Z3RO wrote:http://apps.americanbar.org/lpm/lpt/articles/mtt02071.shtml


BUT THIS IS COUNTER-INTUITIVE! (LOL)

Fark-o-vision
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Fark-o-vision » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:43 pm

Because everyone has gone the other way, I will say that everyone who has their own practice where I live more or less started it alone and right out of law school. Clearly it can be done.

I think its probably a fine idea if you don't have other options, but why not let someone else foot the bill for the experience part of your education?

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:55 pm

Z3RO wrote:http://apps.americanbar.org/lpm/lpt/articles/mtt02071.shtml

"Because such conduct is so prevalent, malpractice insurance is expensive. The least costly annual premiums for experienced lawyers range from $4,000 to $7,000 per lawyer. It's not surprising that this burden falls heaviest on small firms and solo practitioners. In California, where one-quarter of all lawyers earn $50,000 a year or less (an income level that is beyond many sole practitioners in other parts of the country), nearly 20% of lawyers lack malpractice insurance coverage. A recent survey in Illinois showed that 20% of all lawyers - and 40% of solos - similarly lack coverage."


What does the above prove? That "the heaviest burden falls on small firms and solo practitioners"?

http://jonathangstein.typepad.com/the_p ... e_ins.html

Each person has to decide what is best for them. Remember, some states, like California, require you to tell your clients if you do not carry malpractice coverage. Check with your state bar to see if they offer a program. Also, remember to check with other carriers. I found a policy from Lawyers Mutual called the Strong Start Program. It provides basic coverage, but it starts, for a solo practicing less than three years, at $500. Its a great program, but only available in California. Check to see if someone in your state offers a similar program.

http://www.lawyeravenue.com/2008/04/26/ ... o-have-it/

"I assumed legal malpractice insurance was as costly as health insurance and probably couldn’t afford it."

"I’ve heard it said that if you have never had a client file a claim against you, you haven’t been practicing long enough. By this measure, I have now been practicing law long enough."

Matter of fact, read the whole thing.

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:12 pm

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/06/start-up ... -law-firm/

Fourth, you should think about malpractice insurance. It’s not mandatory in New York, but it’s highly recommended. When you first start your own firm, your costs should be fairly low, unless you’re practicing in a high-risk area (like securities, IP, or entertainment). Insurance won’t be expensive at the start, but the premiums will rise as the years pass (because you’re covered from the time that you started your practice).


http://www.brunswickcompanies.com/pl-la ... QgodNEHi5w

http://lawyerist.com/the-cost-of-starti ... st-a-year/

Comments:
On malpractice insurance, I paid $600 for my first year, and am still under $2,000 for two lawyers. This will obviously depend on a number of factors, from location to practice area, but malpractice insurance is a relatively cheap sleep aid.

"Both may be optional, depending on your state.

Filing LLC paperwork costs less than $200, so that doesn’t change the number, much. Your bar association is probably the best place to get started looking for malpractice insurance. It was about $600 for me for the first year (so $50/month). I’m sure the cost of malpractice insurance will vary widely by state and lawyer, though."

http://www.insuranceplanreviews.com/att ... -insurance

The cost of attorney malpractice insurance policies will vary depending on a variety of factors, including but not limited to the type of policy selected, your area of legal practice and specialty, and even personal insurance claim history (which includes all of the attorneys within the firm). The premium of an insurance policy will also depending on the amount of the deductible that you are willing to pay. In addition, attorney malpractice insurance policy rates differ depending on litigation within your jurisdiction and the specific laws of your state. Although larger law firms have to pay for insurance for more attorneys, insurance providers usually offer premium discounts for larger companies. It is also possible to receive reduced premiums if your firm utilizes a data control system that proactively prevents malpractice.

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:14 pm

DoubleChecks wrote: but to be fair, my statement was just malpractice insurance is really high for newly minted grads. i dont know...if that is mutually exclusive with the statement you're trying to push.


It's not really high which is what I'm driving at.

User avatar
Grond
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:33 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Grond » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:22 pm

Hey kids, I have an idea. Why don't you call your local malpractice carrier and ask them to give you a quote?

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:23 pm

Grond wrote:Hey kids, I have an idea. Why don't you call your local malpractice carrier and ask them to give you a quote?


+10000000

Z3RO
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:57 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Z3RO » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:31 pm

Fair enough.

Grond wrote:Hey kids, I have an idea. Why don't you call your local malpractice carrier and ask them to give you a quote?


"Hi, insurance man? I'm trying to settle an internet argument. Supposing I couldn't get a job out of law sch-. Hello?"

User avatar
KeepitKind
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby KeepitKind » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:43 pm

hey OP, just a heads up:

i agree with the advice in this thread that you have a much better chance of success as a solo practitioner if you begin by working for an experienced attorney and learn from their mistakes and strategies. On that note, however, approach the initial position as if you plan to work for them indefinitely. Don't mention your 3-yr plan of bouncing to start your own practice. I think my point that a smaller (possibly not so successful) law practice does not want to invest in training young attorneys that will quickly become their direct rivals for years to come is an obvious one, jus an fyi cus I'm just not sure how rich kids think.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:44 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote: but to be fair, my statement was just malpractice insurance is really high for newly minted grads. i dont know...if that is mutually exclusive with the statement you're trying to push.


It's not really high which is what I'm driving at.


i dont know if i agree with that. so far, ive just seen (mostly) anecdotal evidence on both sides. i guess another thing the articles have done, however, is show that it could also depend on the state you're in.

either way, i wouldnt recommend starting out solo when you could work half a year to a year for free/dirt cheap at a non-profit or another firm and gain experience that way before deciding what to do next, all the while developing contacts and networking.

TheZoid
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:07 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby TheZoid » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:06 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote: but to be fair, my statement was just malpractice insurance is really high for newly minted grads. i dont know...if that is mutually exclusive with the statement you're trying to push.


It's not really high which is what I'm driving at.


i dont know if i agree with that. so far, ive just seen (mostly) anecdotal evidence on both sides. i guess another thing the articles have done, however, is show that it could also depend on the state you're in.

either way, i wouldnt recommend starting out solo when you could work half a year to a year for free/dirt cheap at a non-profit or another firm and gain experience that way before deciding what to do next, all the while developing contacts and networking.


I know it doesn't seem right, but it's actually cheap for newly minted grads. I know this from people who have done it. I forgive you for not knowing, though, as surely no one from Harvard is in such dire straights. :D

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:07 pm

TheZoid wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:i dont know if i agree with that. so far, ive just seen (mostly) anecdotal evidence on both sides. i guess another thing the articles have done, however, is show that it could also depend on the state you're in.

either way, i wouldnt recommend starting out solo when you could work half a year to a year for free/dirt cheap at a non-profit or another firm and gain experience that way before deciding what to do next, all the while developing contacts and networking.


I know it doesn't seem right, but it's actually cheap for newly minted grads. I know this from people who have done it. I forgive you for not knowing, though, as surely no one from Harvard is in such dire straights. :D


haha :P but that is part of my point. everyone i know who recently graduated and looked into this were slammed by high malpractice costs.

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:34 pm

I honestly hope you open a firm and somehow we have a case together. Oh the fun it would be.

User avatar
mbw
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:56 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby mbw » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:04 pm

blowhard wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:You should spend some time learning from practicing attorneys and take some business classes relevant to what you want to do (if you haven't done so already). Conversely, you can go solo straight outta law school. You wouldn't be the first.

There are many variables that affects your odds of success including location, supply and demand (saturation), ties etc.

I think you should do it but that's just me. You have no debt and your start-up costs are being taken care of. What's there to lose?


His license. I've seen a ton of solos in my hometown get disbarred for accidentally making stupid mistakes that experience would have avoided.


According to the ABA, nationwide, less than six hundred lawyers a year get disbarred -- why does your hometown have so many?

03121202698008
Posts: 3002
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:07 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:11 pm

mbw wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:You should spend some time learning from practicing attorneys and take some business classes relevant to what you want to do (if you haven't done so already). Conversely, you can go solo straight outta law school. You wouldn't be the first.

There are many variables that affects your odds of success including location, supply and demand (saturation), ties etc.

I think you should do it but that's just me. You have no debt and your start-up costs are being taken care of. What's there to lose?


His license. I've seen a ton of solos in my hometown get disbarred for accidentally making stupid mistakes that experience would have avoided.


According to the ABA, nationwide, less than six hundred lawyers a year get disbarred -- why does your hometown have so many?


That's permanent disbarrment. Also, only 1-2 a year setup (fairly large secondary market but not huge). Over the last 15 years, I've heard of 4-5 temp or permanent disbarrments and 5+ sanctions. Maybe "huge" wasn't the right term but it's a large percentage of the solos.

User avatar
Grond
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:33 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Grond » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:54 pm

mbw wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:You should spend some time learning from practicing attorneys and take some business classes relevant to what you want to do (if you haven't done so already). Conversely, you can go solo straight outta law school. You wouldn't be the first.

There are many variables that affects your odds of success including location, supply and demand (saturation), ties etc.

I think you should do it but that's just me. You have no debt and your start-up costs are being taken care of. What's there to lose?


His license. I've seen a ton of solos in my hometown get disbarred for accidentally making stupid mistakes that experience would have avoided.


According to the ABA, nationwide, less than six hundred lawyers a year get disbarred -- why does your hometown have so many?

Aren't you through? I thought all the MAS kids were done by now.

User avatar
mbw
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:56 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby mbw » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:06 pm

Grond wrote:
mbw wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:You should spend some time learning from practicing attorneys and take some business classes relevant to what you want to do (if you haven't done so already). Conversely, you can go solo straight outta law school. You wouldn't be the first.

There are many variables that affects your odds of success including location, supply and demand (saturation), ties etc.

I think you should do it but that's just me. You have no debt and your start-up costs are being taken care of. What's there to lose?


His license. I've seen a ton of solos in my hometown get disbarred for accidentally making stupid mistakes that experience would have avoided.


According to the ABA, nationwide, less than six hundred lawyers a year get disbarred -- why does your hometown have so many?

Aren't you through? I thought all the MAS kids were done by now.


No, I was a straggler...

User avatar
birdlaw117
Posts: 2167
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:19 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:31 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:I know it sounds counter-intuitive which is why people keep propagating the myth. Do some research or ask people who have done it (you can pm Areyouinsane etc).

Just so we're clear... you're suggesting PMing Areyouinsane for truthful/accurate information? This is the guy that trolls around and changes entire Wikipedia pages of shit law schools, and you think he is a reliable source of factual info. Okay, that sounds logical...

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:48 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:I know it sounds counter-intuitive which is why people keep propagating the myth. Do some research or ask people who have done it (you can pm Areyouinsane etc).

Just so we're clear... you're suggesting PMing Areyouinsane for truthful/accurate information? This is the guy that trolls around and changes entire Wikipedia pages of shit law schools, and you think he is a reliable source of factual info. Okay, that sounds logical...


You do realize he's an actual lawyer licensed in two states (with at least two years experience...more if you count his doc review gigs) and this subject falls under his area of expertise, right?

If malpractice insurance served as a barrier to going solo, he'd be the first to inform you. He will cite legitimate reasons why going solo is a bad idea among which the cost of malpractice insurance isn't one.

User avatar
somewhatwayward
Posts: 1446
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:10 pm

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:57 pm

isn't it a little early to conclude that you're going to have no job offers? or did you already graduate?

User avatar
birdlaw117
Posts: 2167
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:19 am

Re: No job offers yet... so I'm thinking about hiring myself!

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:36 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:I know it sounds counter-intuitive which is why people keep propagating the myth. Do some research or ask people who have done it (you can pm Areyouinsane etc).

Just so we're clear... you're suggesting PMing Areyouinsane for truthful/accurate information? This is the guy that trolls around and changes entire Wikipedia pages of shit law schools, and you think he is a reliable source of factual info. Okay, that sounds logical...


You do realize he's an actual lawyer licensed in two states (with at least two years experience...more if you count his doc review gigs) and this subject falls under his area of expertise, right?

If malpractice insurance served as a barrier to going solo, he'd be the first to inform you. He will cite legitimate reasons why going solo is a bad idea among which the cost of malpractice insurance isn't one.

Cool, dude. I just wanted to make sure that your source on these matters is highly reputable and never does things that would make someone question his honesty and legitimacy. Sounds like you did your research.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.