V10 no-offer history

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V10 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:37 am

Which firm(s) in the V10 have repeatedly no-offered at the end of the summer? Even if it is just one person per year, it seems like a huge risk. Which firms have consistent 100% offer rates?

According to NALP, both Cravath and DPW had 100% offers last year but S & C no-offered one person. Anyone with insight into past years?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

sca218ml
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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby sca218ml » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:48 am

No offering one person out of a huge class is not a huge risk. Chances are that person either had really bad work product or did something really stupid on the job. Here's a tip: don't do those things. If you are that scared you'll be the one person you have bigger problems.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:05 am

sca218ml wrote:No offering one person out of a huge class is not a huge risk. Chances are that person either had really bad work product or did something really stupid on the job. Here's a tip: don't do those things. If you are that scared you'll be the one person you have bigger problems.


How bad is bad work product? I'm assuming that someone smart and motivated enough to get into these firms will do decently on almost all tasks. I've read that one or two bad or less than enthusiastic reviews can result in the no-offer.

The historical stats are not completely irrelevant. If a firm has persistently given 100% offers for years and years in a row, they probably don't want to buck the trend in one year unless a student is really bad. GD (not V6 but great firm), on the other hand, pays no regard to keeping its stats perfect because has a well-known history of only giving 85-90% of the SA class offers. I would imagine that this knowledge puts a lot of pressure on students during the summer.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:10 am

Anonymous User wrote: GD (not V6 but great firm), on the other hand, pays no regard to keeping its stats perfect because has a well-known history of only giving 85-90% of the SA class offers. I would imagine that this knowledge puts a lot of pressure on students during the summer.


this is a really good point I hadn't thought of. the work environment and attitude of the other associates will probably be a night and day difference between a 100% offer rate firm and a 90%, even 95% one. Even if i weren't risk adverse, that would definitely tip the scale towards favoring a 100% offer rate firm.

bad grades can also result in a no-offer. office politics could result in a no offer. while these things and your work product are all largely within your control, there are still external circumstances outside of your control that could impact your performance (sickness, death in the family, etc)

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Blindmelon
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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:16 am

Stop worrying. Firms invest a ton of $ into summer programs - theres no reason for them to try to make a big class then whittle it down - huge money suck. The smaller/mid-size firms are the ones you need to worry about, or the ones that did not ride the economic storm well.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: GD (not V6 but great firm), on the other hand, pays no regard to keeping its stats perfect because has a well-known history of only giving 85-90% of the SA class offers. I would imagine that this knowledge puts a lot of pressure on students during the summer.


this is a really good point I hadn't thought of. the work environment and attitude of the other associates will probably be a night and day difference between a 100% offer rate firm and a 90%, even 95% one. Even if i weren't risk adverse, that would definitely tip the scale towards favoring a 100% offer rate firm.

bad grades can also result in a no-offer. office politics could result in a no offer. while these things and your work product are all largely within your control, there are still external circumstances outside of your control that could impact your performance (sickness, death in the family, etc)


This is exactly why I am looking for these statistics. All else being equal, I would choose the firm with the consistent 100% offer rate. I'm a very risk averse law student.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:22 am

What is the "V6"? Egregious Weil/Cleary trolling.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:24 am

Blindmelon wrote:Stop worrying. Firms invest a ton of $ into summer programs - theres no reason for them to try to make a big class then whittle it down - huge money suck. The smaller/mid-size firms are the ones you need to worry about, or the ones that did not ride the economic storm well.


This point actually just reminds me of Latham post-Lehman. the economy is another major factor completely outside of your control. a latham probably wouldn't give much pause to no-offering or withdrawing offers in the event of a major economic crash, but a firm that values its perfect offer rate is probably more likely to find other ways to respond to the economy.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:29 am

vanwinkle wrote:What is the "V6"? Egregious Weil/Cleary trolling.


I wrote V10 originally but changed it because I do not have screeners/CBs/offers for V7,8,9 and 10, whereas I do for the rest of V6 besides Wachtell.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:30 am

First of all, a V6 is something that goes in a car.

Second, there is no firm in the "V6" that has had consistently had 100% offers. Every firm at some point in the past few years has no-offered at least 1 or 2 people.

Third, you really should not be making principled distinctions based on this. As others have pointed out, there's little difference between a firm that makes 100% or 95% offers, and if you're worried about being in the 5%, you have much bigger problems. You may not even want to be at the 100% firm - it can be very frustrating and demoralizing to see people who are totally weird/incompetent get offers, knowing you will have to work with them in the future.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby IAFG » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:What is the "V6"? Egregious Weil/Cleary trolling.


I wrote V10 originally but changed it because I do not have screeners/CBs/offers for V7,8,9 and 10, whereas I do for the rest of V6 besides Wachtell.

LOL

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby bjsesq » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:37 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:What is the "V6"? Egregious Weil/Cleary trolling.


I wrote V10 originally but changed it because I do not have screeners/CBs/offers for V7,8,9 and 10, whereas I do for the rest of V6 besides Wachtell.

LOL


Not so subtle anony-bragging must be specific about successes.

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IAFG
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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby IAFG » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:40 am

I am just especially amused as the selfishness of "well the rest of the V10 doesn't matter to ME so fuck anyone else who reads this board and would like to know."

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:43 am

IAFG wrote:I am just especially amused as the selfishness of "well the rest of the V10 doesn't matter to ME so fuck anyone else who reads this board and would like to know."


Edited.

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Re: V10 no-offer history

Postby Cavalier » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:01 am

This is a silly question. First, even the firms that consistently give 100% offers give some cold offers, which are not reported. Second, if you are at a V10 firm, or any firm that gives at least 95% offers, you have to be an idiot to get no-offered. Saying it's a "huge risk" to go to a firm that no-offers one or two out of a giant class every summer is like saying it's a "huge risk" to take a professor that always gives one C; it's ridiculous to worry about things like having the worst exam in the class or being totally inept at summer associate work. There are plenty of good reasons for choosing DPW over S&C, but the slightly different offer rates is not one of them.

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Re: V10 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:Which firm(s) in the V10 have repeatedly no-offered at the end of the summer? Even if it is just one person per year, it seems like a huge risk. Which firms have consistent 100% offer rates?

According to NALP, both Cravath and DPW had 100% offers last year but S & C no-offered one person. Anyone with insight into past years?


While I agree it is needless hair splitting, I am pretty sure I remember that the year before last DPW had a 100% offer rate and S&C / Cravath both no-offered one or two people. These are all firms that anticipate hiring everyone they bring on for the summer, so you shouldn't view the distinctions as terribly meaningful. But that's the data point.

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Re: V10 no-offer history

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:Which firm(s) in the V10 have repeatedly no-offered at the end of the summer? Even if it is just one person per year, it seems like a huge risk. Which firms have consistent 100% offer rates?

According to NALP, both Cravath and DPW had 100% offers last year but S & C no-offered one person. Anyone with insight into past years?


Just a heads up - but once you go through OCI/summer at a firm and talk to attorneys in the field/area, you realize how silly the vault rankings are.

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Re: V6 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sca218ml wrote:No offering one person out of a huge class is not a huge risk. Chances are that person either had really bad work product or did something really stupid on the job. Here's a tip: don't do those things. If you are that scared you'll be the one person you have bigger problems.


How bad is bad work product? I'm assuming that someone smart and motivated enough to get into these firms will do decently on almost all tasks. I've read that one or two bad or less than enthusiastic reviews can result in the no-offer.

The historical stats are not completely irrelevant. If a firm has persistently given 100% offers for years and years in a row, they probably don't want to buck the trend in one year unless a student is really bad. GD (not V6 but great firm), on the other hand, pays no regard to keeping its stats perfect because has a well-known history of only giving 85-90% of the SA class offers. I would imagine that this knowledge puts a lot of pressure on students during the summer.


For what it's worth, Gibson Dunn's practices vary widely by office. Last year, the NY office was 100% and the LA office only no-offered one person (which happens from time to time everywhere). Only the DC office had a significant number of no-offers (three).

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Re: V10 no-offer history

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:57 pm

DPW does give cold offers. You have to fuck up pretty seriously to get one though. Just bad work product won't do it.

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Re: V10 no-offer history

Postby UCLAtransfer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:05 pm

Cavalier wrote:This is a silly question. First, even the firms that consistently give 100% offers give some cold offers, which are not reported.


I think this is a very good point, and worth mentioning that at firms where 1 or 2 summers are no offered out of a large class, at least they are being up front about the no offers. I don't think you can convince me that firms with consistent 100% offer rates just choose to keep the village idiot out of every class. They just cold offer them instead.

Once you have actually summered at a firm, you see the type of people who are the 1 or 2 in every class that don't get offered, and you should have no fear about being that person unless you are a goddamn fool, in which case there is no helping you anyway-you're either getting no offered or getting a cold offer.

TL;DR-the difference between a 100% offer rate and 95% offer rate is not meaningful in reality.

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rayiner
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Re: V10 no-offer history

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:15 pm

UCLAtransfer wrote:
Cavalier wrote:This is a silly question. First, even the firms that consistently give 100% offers give some cold offers, which are not reported.


I think this is a very good point, and worth mentioning that at firms where 1 or 2 summers are no offered out of a large class, at least they are being up front about the no offers. I don't think you can convince me that firms with consistent 100% offer rates just choose to keep the village idiot out of every class. They just cold offer them instead.

Once you have actually summered at a firm, you see the type of people who are the 1 or 2 in every class that don't get offered, and you should have no fear about being that person unless you are a goddamn fool, in which case there is no helping you anyway-you're either getting no offered or getting a cold offer.

TL;DR-the difference between a 100% offer rate and 95% offer rate is not meaningful in reality.


I'd rather have a cold-offer than a no-offer. It makes 3L OCI dramatically different.




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