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This may have been asked in this thread already, but what advice would you give to someone at median with what seems like a low gpa? For example, would one be better off putting 50/100 if their gpa was a 2.9? Strictly speaking regarding schools without the high grade inflation found at many T14s. Is class rank even more important for unknown schools?

does work experience/technical background overcome a GPA about 0.15 below firm median if not seeking IP, but potentially litigation/transaction in the field with background?

can you speak to the difference between "cut-off" for a firm and "median" -is it drastic?

At a V30 firm, my 3L grades dropped a bit. My firm makes offers contingent on grades. Any chance of rescinded offer?

More likely to get hired

Median at a T14?

or

Top 10% at a T25?

itbdvorm wrote:Deal just died, so in here answering some questions. Nothing too personal, don't want to out myself. Very experienced recruiter, senior corporate associate. And...go.

edit - fixed the title

Can you provide some guidance for a 2015 graduate from T20 school with 3.2 cumulative GPA and 1 year litigation under my belt? Softs are full ride + published in regional bar journal. my resume has a focus on IP litigation experience and general civil lit. I am looking for opportunities in Los Angeles.

I would really like to quit my current job at a small firm and look for something midsize to big. I know it sounds very generic, but is there something I should do differently in my mass-mail? Along those thoughts, is 3.2 GPA (right on median) worth noting in my resume?

1styearlateral wrote:This may have been asked in this thread already, but what advice would you give to someone at median with what seems like a low gpa? For example, would one be better off putting 50/100 if their gpa was a 2.9? Strictly speaking regarding schools without the high grade inflation found at many T14s. Is class rank even more important for unknown schools?

Honestly, not to be mean, my advice would be to not apply to firms like ours (because I don't really know what to do with what you are describing).

Figure out where people at median from your school went last year. Talk to career services. Hustle, hustle, hustle.

Anonymous User wrote:does work experience/technical background overcome a GPA about 0.15 below firm median if not seeking IP, but potentially litigation/transaction in the field with background?

can you speak to the difference between "cut-off" for a firm and "median" -is it drastic?

At our firm, cut-off and median is drastic unless you're at a tippy-top school. At others, not. "Firm median" isn't something that exists.

Figure out firms that hired people like you from your school last year, apply there.

Anonymous User wrote:At a V30 firm, my 3L grades dropped a bit. My firm makes offers contingent on grades. Any chance of rescinded offer?

Does "a bit" include a C or F? if not, fine

Anonymous User wrote:More likely to get hired

Median at a T14?

or

Top 10% at a T25?

This probably depends heavily on which T14, which T25, and which firm.

Anonymous User wrote:More likely to get hired

Median at a T14?

or

Top 10% at a T25?

Depends on the T14 and other factors. Not sure what the point of this question is. Go to the best school you can and do the best you can. Silly to assume you'll do better at a worse school. You are much better off lower third at T14 than lower third at T25, and just because you got into a T14 doesn't mean you will ace a T25.

Anonymous User wrote:

itbdvorm wrote:Deal just died, so in here answering some questions. Nothing too personal, don't want to out myself. Very experienced recruiter, senior corporate associate. And...go.

edit - fixed the title

Can you provide some guidance for a 2015 graduate from T20 school with 3.2 cumulative GPA and 1 year litigation under my belt? Softs are full ride + published in regional bar journal. my resume has a focus on IP litigation experience and general civil lit. I am looking for opportunities in Los Angeles.

I would really like to quit my current job at a small firm and look for something midsize to big. I know it sounds very generic, but is there something I should do differently in my mass-mail? Along those thoughts, is 3.2 GPA (right on median) worth noting in my resume?

I mean...

My advice is this - don't even think about applying to firms right now. Who the hell are you? You've worked at a random small firm for one year doing random regional whatever. Are you even in the city you mention? If you want to work for a big firm, go clerk. Or do better at what you're doing already and prove to people you see that you're worthy of moving up. Or ask friends at bigger firms if they think they need more bodies. But crawl before you run.

How early can I apply to lateral and not just have my application trashed?

I'm a T6 2015 grad (decent grades: top 20% at least) at a well regarded firm

Want a change but recognize it is maybe misguided

itbdvorm wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:At a V30 firm, my 3L grades dropped a bit. My firm makes offers contingent on grades. Any chance of rescinded offer?

Does "a bit" include a C or F? if not, fine

C+ in Crim Pro.

itbdvorm wrote:
I mean...

My advice is this - don't even think about applying to firms right now. Who the hell are you? You've worked at a random small firm for one year doing random regional whatever. Are you even in the city you mention? If you want to work for a big firm, go clerk. Or do better at what you're doing already and prove to people you see that you're worthy of moving up. Or ask friends at bigger firms if they think they need more bodies. But crawl before you run.

yes I am in the city I want to apply for and I'm kind of fucked with clerking because I am an international student (seeking to adjust status soon). Would asking firms to "try me out" as a law clerk to prove myself be more enticing? I made the mistake of not doing OCI at school because I was a naive idealistic student with a full ride with no financial pressure and wanted to work on this one particular "interesting project."

Thanks for doing this BTW.

If you're pretty content with a non-NYC region and have a top offer there secured, can you offer some insight into NYC bidding and interviewing if you have "nothing to lose" so to speak.

I'm at a T14 and have strong work experience. Our school encourages everyone to go to OCI. I have a strong offer from a non-NYC region (V50 satellite) that I am happy with but have decided to do OCI nonetheless. Do you recommend a different approach to bidding? For example, my bid list represents a lot of firms above my GPA (from .02 averages to .2 –– I'm a 3.59). Since you are familiar with hiring at these top caliber NYC firms, I was wondering what advice you would offer if you have little to lose and are simply trying to see the best you can do.

So if I'm set on a firm like Kirkland, what approach should I have with respect to the interview? Is it OK to acknowledge that I'm .1 below their GPA average and simply stress that I only signed up for OCI to meet with them? Am I wasting my time attending the NYC job fair just to try to shoot above where my school suggests I will get an offer?

Much appreciated.

itbdvorm wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

We'll presumably ask for a transcript either way, so wouldn't make a huge deal one way or another. I'd actually be inclined slightly not to include given the resume will be passed around to folks but transcript might not be. Key is overcoming the GPA cut hurdle initially, after that it's you/your resume shining.

Thanks for the insight! Really appreciate it.

Hi there, I was the 2L asking for adivce after struck out of OCI. I'm BC/ BU and is currently summering at a Boston mid-size law firm with wonderful reputation. I'm thinking about applying to biglaws NYC and Ropes/Wilmer in boston, I'm sitting at 3. 623 right now which place me top 10%. Your advice was to ask summers that have news about firms that hire 3Ls. And based on my research really not that many summers know that much about hiring, or at least the summers that I'm familiar with. What kind of other route should I take? I'm already emailing firm HR people and applying for clerkships.


was the kid who got a C 1L year and now 10%.

Hello,

Bottom of the class at HLS here. I see that you generally recommend people to do pre-OCI job search. Would you tell the same thing to people without competitive grades? I guess firms act in advance to hire more desirable candidates, not someone they would probably reject during OCI. If people in my shoes are to do pre-OCI massmailing, should I focus on not-so-selective firms and leave the competitive ones to OCI?

Thank you for giving all these tremendous advice!

Anonymous User wrote:How early can I apply to lateral and not just have my application trashed?

I'm a T6 2015 grad (decent grades: top 20% at least) at a well regarded firm

Want a change but recognize it is maybe misguided

What kind of "change" are you looking for?

If a small-town where you're from, or different type of law altogether, go for it whenever you like.

If another big firm, at least 2 years is the bare minimum, but even then there should be a "reason".

You're not going to move from Skadden to Simpson without a good reason why. They'll just assume you can't hack it there, so probably won't hack it here

Anonymous User wrote:

itbdvorm wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:At a V30 firm, my 3L grades dropped a bit. My firm makes offers contingent on grades. Any chance of rescinded offer?

Does "a bit" include a C or F? if not, fine

C+ in Crim Pro.

I guess a chance. Did they love you your summer? Other grades OK? Pretty unlikely I would guess. Just don't fail the bar.

Anonymous User wrote:

itbdvorm wrote:
I mean...

My advice is this - don't even think about applying to firms right now. Who the hell are you? You've worked at a random small firm for one year doing random regional whatever. Are you even in the city you mention? If you want to work for a big firm, go clerk. Or do better at what you're doing already and prove to people you see that you're worthy of moving up. Or ask friends at bigger firms if they think they need more bodies. But crawl before you run.

yes I am in the city I want to apply for and I'm kind of fucked with clerking because I am an international student (seeking to adjust status soon). Would asking firms to "try me out" as a law clerk to prove myself be more enticing? I made the mistake of not doing OCI at school because I was a naive idealistic student with a full ride with no financial pressure and wanted to work on this one particular "interesting project."

Analogy for you.

You're driving your car, and you try to make a turn. But the road is slicker than you expect. You're skidding.

If you slam the brakes - you crash.
If you try to turn away from the skid - you crash.
But if you turn into the skid, you ride it through and gain control.

You're skidding. Turn into the skid and get good at it. You won't make it out unscathed otherwise.

itbdvorm wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:How early can I apply to lateral and not just have my application trashed?

I'm a T6 2015 grad (decent grades: top 20% at least) at a well regarded firm

Want a change but recognize it is maybe misguided

What kind of "change" are you looking for?

If a small-town where you're from, or different type of law altogether, go for it whenever you like.

If another big firm, at least 2 years is the bare minimum, but even then there should be a "reason".

You're not going to move from Skadden to Simpson without a good reason why. They'll just assume you can't hack it there, so probably won't hack it here

Thanks. At a firm with a very strong culture. Love the work, less fond of the atmosphere. Guess I need to suck it up for another couple of years before I can try to move.

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for doing this BTW.

If you're pretty content with a non-NYC region and have a top offer there secured, can you offer some insight into NYC bidding and interviewing if you have "nothing to lose" so to speak.

I'm at a T14 and have strong work experience. Our school encourages everyone to go to OCI. I have a strong offer from a non-NYC region (V50 satellite) that I am happy with but have decided to do OCI nonetheless. Do you recommend a different approach to bidding? For example, my bid list represents a lot of firms above my GPA (from .02 averages to .2 –– I'm a 3.59). Since you are familiar with hiring at these top caliber NYC firms, I was wondering what advice you would offer if you have little to lose and are simply trying to see the best you can do.

So if I'm set on a firm like Kirkland, what approach should I have with respect to the interview? Is it OK to acknowledge that I'm .1 below their GPA average and simply stress that I only signed up for OCI to meet with them? Am I wasting my time attending the NYC job fair just to try to shoot above where my school suggests I will get an offer?

Much appreciated.

Well, I wouldn't be "set" on a firm if I could help it.

Zero pain in taking some time away from Ithaca to meet with some firms. But also zero wrong with going to your hometown.

What I will say is that I believe the first few years of NYC (or comparable) firm life, if done correctly, can be like a quality crucible where better lawyering is formed. I know based upon what I saw in my first few years (more deals, quicker timelines, more work, harder matters) that I was just better than I would have been had I started at a smaller firm / smaller town.

So I'd try to take a hard look at yourself and think about "who you want to be". There are those who disagree with my assessment (some validity to "if you want to be someplace, go be someplace"). If you think you'll be happy as a midlevel partner in a smaller town, or in-house somewhere (totally good gigs), may as well start wherever. If you think you want to be a rainmaker, or general counsel at a F500, I think starting NYC -> moving small town is a good path.

For you, personally, and your story, I think totally the right approach. You've got a good "safety" position you'd be happy with. Take some moonshots, interview like you're supposed to be there rather than trying to prove yourself via GPA, do your research and ask pointed, complicated questions that SHOW (not tell) how smart/capable you are, and good luck.

Anonymous User wrote:Hi there, I was the 2L asking for adivce after struck out of OCI. I'm BC/ BU and is currently summering at a Boston mid-size law firm with wonderful reputation. I'm thinking about applying to biglaws NYC and Ropes/Wilmer in boston, I'm sitting at 3. 623 right now which place me top 10%. Your advice was to ask summers that have news about firms that hire 3Ls. And based on my research really not that many summers know that much about hiring, or at least the summers that I'm familiar with. What kind of other route should I take? I'm already emailing firm HR people and applying for clerkships.


was the kid who got a C 1L year and now 10%.

Don't call it a comeback! Congrats.

Talk to friends at those firms who would vouch for you to their recruiting staffs and give it a shot. Good way to effectively skip OCI.

Your friends may not know much now, but they will.

Anonymous User wrote:Hello,

Bottom of the class at HLS here. I see that you generally recommend people to do pre-OCI job search. Would you tell the same thing to people without competitive grades? I guess firms act in advance to hire more desirable candidates, not someone they would probably reject during OCI. If people in my shoes are to do pre-OCI massmailing, should I focus on not-so-selective firms and leave the competitive ones to OCI?

Thank you for giving all these tremendous advice!

Really couldn't hurt. Again, some places will say "come visit us OCI"

Some places will say "would love to meet with you"

Even if they don't give you a callback, always good to show interest