V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:17 pm

TheoO wrote:
She MAY be a better interviewer than I am, but I doubt by much if any, and she would agree. Another female friend is top 15% but on LR--she already has 5 offers and is not done yet. She is personable and has a solid resume but not so much that you would think it should make much of a difference.


How the hell did you come to these conclusions?

Poor guy. To attend crappy law school and come out with fantastic end results, only to have to have a couple of women take... I don't even know what. More bragging rights?


I'm anon poster you quoted.

I did attend a crappy law school and I did come out with fantastic end results and I did because I earned it. It is not easy to be a top student at any law school, and the success I had at OCI was not arbitrary. Yes I sound like an entitled dbag. But that's because YOU sound like I deserve shit for going to a shit school and should be fortunate I have anything. If I was at the bottom of the class, I'd agree. But I'm not.

It's not about bragging rights. I don't believe all top firms are equal and I care marginally about ranking. I did not particularly like any of the the firms I got offers from and I got dinged at the 5-6 I really liked. It seems like the vast majority of the females on LR at my school all got more offers than I did and more importantly, offers at the firms they wanted. Trying to figure out why. Of course it could be that they ALL are better interviewers. But given how many CBs I got from screeners and how many females got more offers than I did, it just seems unlikely.

I don't know for sure that my close friend isn't a lot better than I am at interviewing. It's just an educated guess based on our personalities, how many CBs we both got, etc.

It's just been a weird situation. I've been on par or at the top throughout the whole process--# of screeners, # of CBs, quality of firms in those CBs, etc. But then when it came to ACTUALLY getting an offer, I and other top students who were males have been far behind our female competition. So I was curious if this is random luck or if there is a reason for it.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:28 pm

if i had to guess i'd say you're coming off entitled in your interviews which is why you weren't able to convert as many callbacks to offers as you would have liked.

also, please stop calling them "females"- this probably has everything to do with your social skills and little to do with gender

ETA accidental anon, this is pmt

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby DJ JD » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
TheoO wrote:
She MAY be a better interviewer than I am, but I doubt by much if any, and she would agree. Another female friend is top 15% but on LR--she already has 5 offers and is not done yet. She is personable and has a solid resume but not so much that you would think it should make much of a difference.


How the hell did you come to these conclusions?

Poor guy. To attend crappy law school and come out with fantastic end results, only to have to have a couple of women take... I don't even know what. More bragging rights?


Yes I sound like an entitled dbag. But that's because YOU sound like I deserve shit for going to a shit school and should be fortunate I have anything.


So the reason you sound like an entitled douche is because someone mentioned your school's rank after you made yourself sound like an entitled douche...? Yeah. I got it. That makes sense.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:if i had to guess i'd say you're coming off entitled in your interviews which is why you weren't able to convert as many callbacks to offers as you would have liked.

also, please stop calling them "females"- this probably has everything to do with your social skills and little to do with gender

ETA accidental anon, this is pmt


Anon from above again.

What should I call them? My post is about male vs female success with offers. If sex does not matter at all, then that's fine, but that's what I asked the OP and am looking for his input.

Maybe you're right about entitlement, but you're probably wrong for 2 reasons:
1. It's unlikely I'd get as many CBs as I did if so. It is considerably harder--at least at my school--to get a CB from a screener than an offer from a CB.
2. I sound nothing in my interviews like I did in my post. That post was brute honesty. I of course do nothing of the same during interviews. I am honest but respectfully and at least TRY not to sound entitled, which as you might surmise is quite easy to do when you go to a shit law school and are consistently interviewing with people who went to HYS and clerked for Fed Circuit Judges.

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xael
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I apologize since I'm sure this has been asked but I can't really find it in search.

First some precursor. I go to a T2 in NYC. At my school, you need to be top 15% + LR to get in the door at any V100s and certainly any V25s (save for a few random exceptions of people with killer connections). Despite this, almost all of the top firms come to our school for OCI or do resume collect, and only 2-3 firms I know of are flat out unwilling to give CBs/offers to people at my school. As the OCI process slowly comes to an end here in late August, I would say I have been very impressed with how the Top 10% at my school has done in securing Big Law offers.

However, I have noticed without exception that the top women in our school are significantly outperforming the top men in our school. I was in the top 1-2% of the class for GPA (unofficially but the students kind of just know and I assume people like you with years of experience would have a good estimate that I was at the very top) + Law Review + 4.0 UG GPA and certainly did well enough in this process. I got 12 CBs from OCI screeners, and a few more from resume collect/mass mailing. I ended up with 3 offers, one V20 and two V35s. Not crying, but somewhat disappointed when comparing with many of my slightly-significantly lower credentialed friends.

Most of my female friends on LR with lower GPAs did significantly better. Just as many CBs but a lot more offers. My closest female friend for example was top 5% (again unofficially) and had more CBs and an offer basically everywhere. She MAY be a better interviewer than I am, but I doubt by much if any, and she would agree. Another female friend is top 15% but on LR--she already has 5 offers and is not done yet. She is personable and has a solid resume but not so much that you would think it should make much of a difference. The other females who also seemed to get a ton of offers are clearly quiet and shy and I'd be shocked if someone like you thought they were better at interviewing than I am.

I know being a woman is an advantage for diversity reasons etc. I am curious just how big of an advantage it is. Did these women really just all outperform me drastically on interviews over and over again?
More importantly, is being a woman/even more important at a lower ranked school such as mine, where you're only going to make 1-5 offers anyway, since you get to kill two birds with one stone (add one more school to your summer program but also another female)?


1. Does it matter? You have your offers. No one is going to change their bid list because of their gender identity.

2. Sorry your friends did better than you with similar grades, better resumes, and better interviewing skills. Must sting like a bitch.

3.
Anonymous User wrote:females
Last edited by xael on Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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xael
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:53 pm

Maybe women just make better lawyers.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:05 pm

.

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chuckbass
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby chuckbass » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I did attend a crappy law school and I did come out with fantastic end results and I did because I earned it. It is not easy to be a top student at any law school, and the success I had at OCI was not arbitrary. Yes I sound like an entitled dbag. But that's because YOU sound like I deserve shit for going to a shit school and should be fortunate I have anything. If I was at the bottom of the class, I'd agree. But I'm not.

I mean tbh you really are fortunate to have anything. Just because you crushed it doesn't mean you're entitled to an elite outcome, and that's the risk that people take going to lower ranked schools.

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xael
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:19 pm

chuckbass wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I did attend a crappy law school and I did come out with fantastic end results and I did because I earned it. It is not easy to be a top student at any law school, and the success I had at OCI was not arbitrary. Yes I sound like an entitled dbag. But that's because YOU sound like I deserve shit for going to a shit school and should be fortunate I have anything. If I was at the bottom of the class, I'd agree. But I'm not.

I mean tbh you really are fortunate to have anything. Just because you crushed it doesn't mean you're entitled to an elite outcome, and that's the risk that people take going to lower ranked schools.


Um no haven't you heard all men with good grades deserve the entire v5 no questions asked

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:23 pm

chuckbass wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I did attend a crappy law school and I did come out with fantastic end results and I did because I earned it. It is not easy to be a top student at any law school, and the success I had at OCI was not arbitrary. Yes I sound like an entitled dbag. But that's because YOU sound like I deserve shit for going to a shit school and should be fortunate I have anything. If I was at the bottom of the class, I'd agree. But I'm not.

I mean tbh you really are fortunate to have anything. Just because you crushed it doesn't mean you're entitled to an elite outcome, and that's the risk that people take going to lower ranked schools.


Everyone in the top 10% at my school who is not very socially awkward gets BigLaw. It may be hard for TLSers to believe but it's true. If you want to say I am lucky insofar as had I been median I would have 0% chance of getting anything, then sure, that is definitely true, and I do have plenty of smart friends around or below median with no offers or any job prospects at all.

But if you are one of the "lucky" ones to finish at the top, you would be quite "unlucky" to not get BigLaw.

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PourMeTea
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby PourMeTea » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:30 pm

fordham anon wrote:the females are taking ARE JOBS

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:34 pm

I'm confused - this anon is asking whether men get less offers at OCI than women with similar academic credentials?

Probably. Because men tend to be more awkward, less attractive, and due to a number of other structural pressures, women pursue less signaling opportunities and as a result those that do become a more valued commodity than another tall kinda obsessive white dude who wants to be a corporate lawyer.

But this shouldn't matter to a normal person at all. I'm sure your firms are fine. What do you mean "ranking". I don't know what rankings you profess to care about but it's probably misguided.
Last edited by jbagelboy on Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PourMeTea
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby PourMeTea » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:34 pm

anon, how attractive do you think you are?

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xael
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:35 pm

Maybe men tend to be more awkward but let's not assume their v35 FAILURES is a result of their lack of attractiveness, please.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby smaug » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:38 pm

xael wrote:Maybe women just make better lawyers.


I heard a partner say this earnestly/flatly state that the women candidates are stronger than the men, as a rule, right now.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby star fox » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:38 pm

Stop with the gender stuff.

You got a great outcome. Everyone pays the same. If you got biglaw out of a T2 why are you so worried about exit ops out of a lowly V35 (V20?)

People are going to have wildly different results. Quit being jealous over something like who got more offers or who got a better vault ranked firm.

A great man once said "there are very few superlative outcomes" here.

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xael
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:41 pm

smaug wrote:
xael wrote:Maybe women just make better lawyers.


I heard a partner say this earnestly/flatly state that the women candidates are stronger than the men, as a rule, right now.


Well, I definitely didn't assume I deserved any big law offers coming in to law school or in to oci and I'd bet $100 that imposter syndrome ensures most other women did not either.

Which could explain a disparity in effort for sure.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby chuckbass » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
chuckbass wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I did attend a crappy law school and I did come out with fantastic end results and I did because I earned it. It is not easy to be a top student at any law school, and the success I had at OCI was not arbitrary. Yes I sound like an entitled dbag. But that's because YOU sound like I deserve shit for going to a shit school and should be fortunate I have anything. If I was at the bottom of the class, I'd agree. But I'm not.

I mean tbh you really are fortunate to have anything. Just because you crushed it doesn't mean you're entitled to an elite outcome, and that's the risk that people take going to lower ranked schools.


Everyone in the top 10% at my school who is not very socially awkward gets BigLaw. It may be hard for TLSers to believe but it's true. If you want to say I am lucky insofar as had I been median I would have 0% chance of getting anything, then sure, that is definitely true, and I do have plenty of smart friends around or below median with no offers or any job prospects at all.

But if you are one of the "lucky" ones to finish at the top, you would be quite "unlucky" to not get BigLaw.

You were 3 offers away from striking out, so yes you easily could have been "unlucky."

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:49 pm

star fox wrote:Stop with the gender stuff.

You got a great outcome. Everyone pays the same. If you got biglaw out of a T2 why are you so worried about exit ops out of a lowly V35 (V20?)

People are going to have wildly different results. Quit being jealous over something like who got more offers or who got a better vault ranked firm.

A great man once said "there are very few superlative outcomes" here.


Anon here--

As I mentioned above--I don't actually care what the rankings are. The firm I liked the most is actually not ranked on Vault, but I didn't get an offer. I am definitely jealous of people who are similarly or lesser situated than I am who got more offers. It's hard not to be. I don't care at all to "have more offers," but an offer from one of the firms I really wanted would have been nice.

And yes, I go to a T2. But when 5-10 students with worse academic credentials at your T2 all have as many or more offers than you do and at the same firms that you didn't get an offer at, and then you realize that everyone of these people was a woman, it just raises an eyebrow--and hence my question for OP.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby El Pollito » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:55 pm

lol who thinks of women as "diversity hires"? what a nut

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby El Pollito » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:56 pm

xael wrote:Maybe women just make better lawyers.

i work in a 75% female group and can confirm that this is true

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xael
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:56 pm

The people who tend to think that someone else only got x job or into y school because or their race or gender or sexual orientation tend not to consider the possibility that maybe the only reason they got x job was because of their strong, straight, white, male handshake.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:56 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I'm confused - this anon is asking whether men get less offers at OCI than women with similar academic credentials?

Probably. Because men tend to be more awkward, less attractive, and due to a number of other structural pressures, women pursue less signaling opportunities and as a result those that do become a more valued commodity than another tall kinda obsessive white dude who wants to be a corporate lawyer.

But this shouldn't matter to a normal person at all. I'm sure your firms are fine. What do you mean "ranking". I don't know what rankings you profess to care about but it's probably misguided.


Anon here again.

I meant rankings according to Vault. But again to reiterate, my concern is not ranking. Any indication of that is just to show that getting big firms to pay attention to students at my school is not the issue.

I was indeed only concerned about male vs. female with regard to offers, and specifically, male vs. female with regard to offers at lower ranked schools.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby xael » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:57 pm

Anon OP, were you ever asked in an interview what your parents think about you moving to NYC? That's always a fun question to answer and one I'm sure many men get as well as women. I mean, that just has to be a shared experience, right?

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby smaug » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:58 pm

But really I think you jokingly threw out there that women make better lawyers when that's probably true at this point.




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