V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

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TooOld4This
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:32 pm

6lehderjets wrote:I posted this in HLS marginal candidate guide, but I'd get your imput as well.

Since mass mail is such a crap shoot and quantity is crucial, what are your thoughts on just emailing a resume, transcript, and writing sample? And just putting in your email that a cover letter is available on request.


This would go immediately in my trash.

The key to mass mailing is convincing the reader of your materials that you aren't mass mailing. What you propose is the exact oposite. It's like screaming "I'm desperate and lazy and don't care what job I get." This attitude isn't one of the hallmarks of someone most places want to hire.

Also IMHO, though OP and others may disagree, I think sending writing samples if they are not specifically requested is a bad idea. Legal writing is an acquired talent. Whatever sample you have is likely really bad in comparison to the work I'm used to reading. If I'm not in a "I'm reading a law student's writing frame of mind" I'm likely to judge your sample quite harshly and it is unlikely to help your application. OTOH, if we've requested writing samples, I'm comparing the work of students with other students and you have (hopefully) a better shot of it standing out in a good way.

6lehderjets
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby 6lehderjets » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:26 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
6lehderjets wrote:I posted this in HLS marginal candidate guide, but I'd get your imput as well.

Since mass mail is such a crap shoot and quantity is crucial, what are your thoughts on just emailing a resume, transcript, and writing sample? And just putting in your email that a cover letter is available on request.


This would go immediately in my trash.

The key to mass mailing is convincing the reader of your materials that you aren't mass mailing. What you propose is the exact oposite. It's like screaming "I'm desperate and lazy and don't care what job I get." This attitude isn't one of the hallmarks of someone most places want to hire.

Also IMHO, though OP and others may disagree, I think sending writing samples if they are not specifically requested is a bad idea. Legal writing is an acquired talent. Whatever sample you have is likely really bad in comparison to the work I'm used to reading. If I'm not in a "I'm reading a law student's writing frame of mind" I'm likely to judge your sample quite harshly and it is unlikely to help your application. OTOH, if we've requested writing samples, I'm comparing the work of students with other students and you have (hopefully) a better shot of it standing out in a good way.


Any difference to you if the cover letter is the body of the email opposed to being an attachment?

Anonymous User
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:47 pm

I'm not even in the top 50% at a lower T1 in a major market. I had a good first semester (top 25%) and one bad grade dropped my gpa substantially second semester..but I got A's in legal writing both semesters. I've gotten nothing from OCI (unsuprisingly) but I received my first preselect surprisingly from a v50 firm in DC. I worked in-house this summer and managing counsel really liked me, even being a reference for me. I am also a female minority. Any idea why I received this preselect (was it just to fill a slot?) and how I can blow them out of the water to make a huge exception? I am a good interviewer...everywhere I interviewed in the past gave me an offer and I had to turn them down in the Spring of 1L, and candidates from schools ranked better than me and with better grades were rejected from the same position I had this summer because they didn't "click" as well as I did (found out later). Thanks.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:35 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
6lehderjets wrote:I posted this in HLS marginal candidate guide, but I'd get your imput as well.

Since mass mail is such a crap shoot and quantity is crucial, what are your thoughts on just emailing a resume, transcript, and writing sample? And just putting in your email that a cover letter is available on request.


This would go immediately in my trash.

The key to mass mailing is convincing the reader of your materials that you aren't mass mailing. What you propose is the exact oposite. It's like screaming "I'm desperate and lazy and don't care what job I get." This attitude isn't one of the hallmarks of someone most places want to hire.

Also IMHO, though OP and others may disagree, I think sending writing samples if they are not specifically requested is a bad idea. Legal writing is an acquired talent. Whatever sample you have is likely really bad in comparison to the work I'm used to reading. If I'm not in a "I'm reading a law student's writing frame of mind" I'm likely to judge your sample quite harshly and it is unlikely to help your application. OTOH, if we've requested writing samples, I'm comparing the work of students with other students and you have (hopefully) a better shot of it standing out in a good way.


Do you really think that a student who puts in the extra busy work to replace firm names and practice areas in a form cover letter really wants to work at your firm any more than any other firm that can pay? What's the difference between a personalized form cover letter and a non-personalized one?

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manofjustice
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby manofjustice » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
6lehderjets wrote:I posted this in HLS marginal candidate guide, but I'd get your imput as well.

Since mass mail is such a crap shoot and quantity is crucial, what are your thoughts on just emailing a resume, transcript, and writing sample? And just putting in your email that a cover letter is available on request.


This would go immediately in my trash.

The key to mass mailing is convincing the reader of your materials that you aren't mass mailing. What you propose is the exact oposite. It's like screaming "I'm desperate and lazy and don't care what job I get." This attitude isn't one of the hallmarks of someone most places want to hire.

Also IMHO, though OP and others may disagree, I think sending writing samples if they are not specifically requested is a bad idea. Legal writing is an acquired talent. Whatever sample you have is likely really bad in comparison to the work I'm used to reading. If I'm not in a "I'm reading a law student's writing frame of mind" I'm likely to judge your sample quite harshly and it is unlikely to help your application. OTOH, if we've requested writing samples, I'm comparing the work of students with other students and you have (hopefully) a better shot of it standing out in a good way.


Do you really think that a student who puts in the extra busy work to replace firm names and practice areas in a form cover letter really wants to work at your firm any more than any other firm that can pay? What's the difference between a personalized form cover letter and a non-personalized one?


Accidental annon.

TooOld4This
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Do you really think that a student who puts in the extra busy work to replace firm names and practice areas in a form cover letter really wants to work at your firm any more than any other firm that can pay? What's the difference between a personalized form cover letter and a non-personalized one?


Replacing names into a form letter is also not going to convince me that you want the job. But it at least shows that you can jump through the hoops and (hopefully) know how to use search and replace. If you can't even make that minimal effort, I can only assume that you will take the same attitude with your work -- and much of that when you are junior will be tasks that are annoying, time consuming, and detail oriented. I will at least read your resume at that point.

A good cover does not read like a form letter. If yours does, you haven't done enough homework. There are ways to make a form cover letter not scream form letter. Primarily, you should have different versions for different categories of jobs and you should have a place in each to have customized sentences to drop in.

Basically, mass mailing is generally not going to be that effective if you are just mail merging, unless you are fairly sophisticated about it. Mass mailing should refer to quantity, but not to mass production.

TooOld4This
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:04 pm

6lehderjets wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
6lehderjets wrote:I posted this in HLS marginal candidate guide, but I'd get your imput as well.

Since mass mail is such a crap shoot and quantity is crucial, what are your thoughts on just emailing a resume, transcript, and writing sample? And just putting in your email that a cover letter is available on request.


This would go immediately in my trash.

The key to mass mailing is convincing the reader of your materials that you aren't mass mailing. What you propose is the exact oposite. It's like screaming "I'm desperate and lazy and don't care what job I get." This attitude isn't one of the hallmarks of someone most places want to hire.

Also IMHO, though OP and others may disagree, I think sending writing samples if they are not specifically requested is a bad idea. Legal writing is an acquired talent. Whatever sample you have is likely really bad in comparison to the work I'm used to reading. If I'm not in a "I'm reading a law student's writing frame of mind" I'm likely to judge your sample quite harshly and it is unlikely to help your application. OTOH, if we've requested writing samples, I'm comparing the work of students with other students and you have (hopefully) a better shot of it standing out in a good way.


Any difference to you if the cover letter is the body of the email opposed to being an attachment?


I seem to see more cover letters as attachments. If your materials are all one attachment they are less likely to get separated as they get forwarded around.

TooOld4This
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm not even in the top 50% at a lower T1 in a major market. I had a good first semester (top 25%) and one bad grade dropped my gpa substantially second semester..but I got A's in legal writing both semesters. I've gotten nothing from OCI (unsuprisingly) but I received my first preselect surprisingly from a v50 firm in DC. I worked in-house this summer and managing counsel really liked me, even being a reference for me. I am also a female minority. Any idea why I received this preselect (was it just to fill a slot?) and how I can blow them out of the water to make a huge exception? I am a good interviewer...everywhere I interviewed in the past gave me an offer and I had to turn them down in the Spring of 1L, and candidates from schools ranked better than me and with better grades were rejected from the same position I had this summer because they didn't "click" as well as I did (found out later). Thanks.


You didn't like the advice you got on the other thread, huh? :wink:

As others have already pointed out, you need to stop thinking along these lines. You will just sink whatever chance you have. You are who you are. Faking anything in an interview is more likely to backfire. You really can't fake a wow factor. Listen in the interview so that you answer the questions they are asking. Display genuine enthusiasm (but don't be over the top). Let the chips fall where they may.

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manofjustice
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby manofjustice » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:23 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm not even in the top 50% at a lower T1 in a major market. I had a good first semester (top 25%) and one bad grade dropped my gpa substantially second semester..but I got A's in legal writing both semesters. I've gotten nothing from OCI (unsuprisingly) but I received my first preselect surprisingly from a v50 firm in DC. I worked in-house this summer and managing counsel really liked me, even being a reference for me. I am also a female minority. Any idea why I received this preselect (was it just to fill a slot?) and how I can blow them out of the water to make a huge exception? I am a good interviewer...everywhere I interviewed in the past gave me an offer and I had to turn them down in the Spring of 1L, and candidates from schools ranked better than me and with better grades were rejected from the same position I had this summer because they didn't "click" as well as I did (found out later). Thanks.


You didn't like the advice you got on the other thread, huh? :wink:

As others have already pointed out, you need to stop thinking along these lines. You will just sink whatever chance you have. You are who you are. Faking anything in an interview is more likely to backfire. You really can't fake a wow factor. Listen in the interview so that you answer the questions they are asking. Display genuine enthusiasm (but don't be over the top). Let the chips fall where they may.


Are you an equity partner?

Anonymous User
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:13 pm

How would taking law school in a second language help my bottom 30% ranking(accelerated program, a summer of curved 17 credits in a 28 student class)? In what cases a foreign background would help me stand out?

I'm in the lower T14. In the first week of OCI I tried to argue that my background (a few big name internships, M.S. finance from a state university and foreign undergrad) would meet the need of cross border work, some firms liked my story when I interned at UN, but until now all dings no call back, I'm really pretty realistic and not expecting an offer from OCI, but in the next week I have about 20 interviews from all over the states (because I don't have much ties anywhere so I bid everywhere, mainly mid west and NY), so I still want to struggle a little. Thanks a lot!

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:51 am

My grades are less than stellar, and during a callback I was asked about why I didn't do so well. How do you think it would be perceived if I offered to perform a task/assignment for them to prove my capabilities?

Note: I am being considered for a particular practice group, for which there is a clear need, and for which I have strong work experience. The office to which I applied does not currently have a summer program, I'm the only candidate they interviewed, and as best as I can tell they haven't decided one way or the other yet

fxb
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby fxb » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:My grades are less than stellar, and during a callback I was asked about why I didn't do so well. How do you think it would be perceived if I offered to perform a task/assignment for them to prove my capabilities?
Last edited by fxb on Thu May 08, 2014 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:My grades are less than stellar, and during a callback I was asked about why I didn't do so well. How do you think it would be perceived if I offered to perform a task/assignment for them to prove my capabilities?

Note: I am being considered for a particular practice group, for which there is a clear need, and for which I have strong work experience. The office to which I applied does not currently have a summer program, I'm the only candidate they interviewed, and as best as I can tell they haven't decided one way or the other yet


If you're already at the CB stage then obviously they're willing to overlook your grades because of something else on your resume. This question is a chance to cheerily deflect (never get negative), give a brief explanation of why they're not representative of your ability, and point them to whatever experience or other factors you have on your resume that got you to the CB.

itbdvorm
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I want to convey to firm X that they are sincerely my ideal firm (they really are). I have already hit it off well with the interviewer at a law review mixer this summer, so I also have that going for me.

Would it come off wrong to tell them during my screener that they are truly my number one choice? I want to try and convey that they are not just another firm I'm interviewing with.

Thanks!

I have a similar question, but at the callback stage. I was able to get a callback from a firm I really, really obscenely like (from what I've experienced, at least). Is this something mentionable during a CB or would that almost alarm them (or perhaps, as I suspect, would it vary depending on person?)

I've had good conversations with nearly everyone I've been able to talk to from the firm (5 attorneys from various offices and 1 recruiter) and I plan on talking to summers from this year. I was so excited when I received my callback I'm pretty sure I babbled incoherently on the phone to my interviewer (he just laughed)...much like what I seem to be doing now for this post. I've been checking this board and talking to alumni and upperclassmen and I know that the CB stage is likely more about fit. I just want an offer from this firm so much I feel like I'm becoming a nervous wreck from worry, which I'm sure is a terrible way to go into a CB.


I feel like this should be a "show, don't tell" thing - if you can convey how seriously you're interested in the firm by knowledge of specific attritubtes that make the firm unusual that is going to do more than saying "I love you!!!!!"

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:15 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Do you really think that a student who puts in the extra busy work to replace firm names and practice areas in a form cover letter really wants to work at your firm any more than any other firm that can pay? What's the difference between a personalized form cover letter and a non-personalized one?


Replacing names into a form letter is also not going to convince me that you want the job. But it at least shows that you can jump through the hoops and (hopefully) know how to use search and replace. If you can't even make that minimal effort, I can only assume that you will take the same attitude with your work -- and much of that when you are junior will be tasks that are annoying, time consuming, and detail oriented. I will at least read your resume at that point.

A good cover does not read like a form letter. If yours does, you haven't done enough homework. There are ways to make a form cover letter not scream form letter. Primarily, you should have different versions for different categories of jobs and you should have a place in each to have customized sentences to drop in.

Basically, mass mailing is generally not going to be that effective if you are just mail merging, unless you are fairly sophisticated about it. Mass mailing should refer to quantity, but not to mass production.


agreed. this is the most important thing you should have in your life. if you can't take the time to find at least one unusual thing about the firms you're mailing, how can i have any confidence you'll take the extra time to check the details on a filing?

itbdvorm
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My grades are less than stellar, and during a callback I was asked about why I didn't do so well. How do you think it would be perceived if I offered to perform a task/assignment for them to prove my capabilities?

Note: I am being considered for a particular practice group, for which there is a clear need, and for which I have strong work experience. The office to which I applied does not currently have a summer program, I'm the only candidate they interviewed, and as best as I can tell they haven't decided one way or the other yet


If you're already at the CB stage then obviously they're willing to overlook your grades because of something else on your resume. This question is a chance to cheerily deflect (never get negative), give a brief explanation of why they're not representative of your ability, and point them to whatever experience or other factors you have on your resume that got you to the CB.


agree with this advice. not sure what kind of task you could do.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How would taking law school in a second language help my bottom 30% ranking(accelerated program, a summer of curved 17 credits in a 28 student class)? In what cases a foreign background would help me stand out?

I'm in the lower T14. In the first week of OCI I tried to argue that my background (a few big name internships, M.S. finance from a state university and foreign undergrad) would meet the need of cross border work, some firms liked my story when I interned at UN, but until now all dings no call back, I'm really pretty realistic and not expecting an offer from OCI, but in the next week I have about 20 interviews from all over the states (because I don't have much ties anywhere so I bid everywhere, mainly mid west and NY), so I still want to struggle a little. Thanks a lot!


Sorry, if anything it would hurt it. I frankly can't tell from this post whether you are suggesting that you took law school classes in another language but English is your first language and you're at a T14, or vice versa. If you're going to be practicing law in English, I need your English to be perfect.

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guano
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby guano » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:38 pm

manofjustice wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm not even in the top 50% at a lower T1 in a major market. I had a good first semester (top 25%) and one bad grade dropped my gpa substantially second semester..but I got A's in legal writing both semesters. I've gotten nothing from OCI (unsuprisingly) but I received my first preselect surprisingly from a v50 firm in DC. I worked in-house this summer and managing counsel really liked me, even being a reference for me. I am also a female minority. Any idea why I received this preselect (was it just to fill a slot?) and how I can blow them out of the water to make a huge exception? I am a good interviewer...everywhere I interviewed in the past gave me an offer and I had to turn them down in the Spring of 1L, and candidates from schools ranked better than me and with better grades were rejected from the same position I had this summer because they didn't "click" as well as I did (found out later). Thanks.


You didn't like the advice you got on the other thread, huh? :wink:

As others have already pointed out, you need to stop thinking along these lines. You will just sink whatever chance you have. You are who you are. Faking anything in an interview is more likely to backfire. You really can't fake a wow factor. Listen in the interview so that you answer the questions they are asking. Display genuine enthusiasm (but don't be over the top). Let the chips fall where they may.


Are you an equity partner?

Are you a completely clueless asshole?

itbdvorm
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:45 pm

so...getting back on track here. seeing lots of "which firm" threads - i will try to give honest assessments though my #1 recommendation remains (after doing your research) to go back again, talk to more people, observe little interactions and try to find a place you think better matches your personality. and, go

Anonymous User
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:12 pm

itbdvorm wrote:so...getting back on track here. seeing lots of "which firm" threads - i will try to give honest assessments though my #1 recommendation remains (after doing your research) to go back again, talk to more people, observe little interactions and try to find a place you think better matches your personality. and, go


Thanks for doing this. I'm trying to decide between Paul, Weiss and Skadden (both in NY) for litigation. I plan on going back to both firms soon, and I'm leaning towards Paul, Weiss based on the impressions I got during callbacks, but I would love an honest assessment of both firms and perhaps both general litigation departments.

Anonymous User
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:26 pm

Curious what your impression of Sullcrom NY is (have an offer there)

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:58 pm

itbdvorm wrote:so...getting back on track here. seeing lots of "which firm" threads - i will try to give honest assessments though my #1 recommendation remains (after doing your research) to go back again, talk to more people, observe little interactions and try to find a place you think better matches your personality. and, go


Thanks. I'm deciding btwn Paul, Weiss and Jones Day (both NYC). Interest in litigation. Visiting both again, but liked people from both places my first time around.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:06 am

Once you hit the callback stage, in your experience are you competing with the entire pool of applicants or is it still school specific?

So for example, if a NY firm calls back 80 CLS students, I have to assume that even if all interviewed well, they can't extend offers to all of them. However, if true is this the same for out of the area schools? So like if a NY firm calls 8 Northwestern kids back, is it the same CB-->Offer ratio, or would you expect it to be higher since the pool is smaller and the firm has flown these out of towners in?

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:22 am

Deciding between Simpson, Weil, Latham for corporate. Leaning towards Simpson. Thoughts?

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:30 am

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How would taking law school in a second language help my bottom 30% ranking(accelerated program, a summer of curved 17 credits in a 28 student class)? In what cases a foreign background would help me stand out?

I'm in the lower T14. In the first week of OCI I tried to argue that my background (a few big name internships, M.S. finance from a state university and foreign undergrad) would meet the need of cross border work, some firms liked my story when I interned at UN, but until now all dings no call back, I'm really pretty realistic and not expecting an offer from OCI, but in the next week I have about 20 interviews from all over the states (because I don't have much ties anywhere so I bid everywhere, mainly mid west and NY), so I still want to struggle a little. Thanks a lot!


Sorry, if anything it would hurt it. I frankly can't tell from this post whether you are suggesting that you took law school classes in another language but English is your first language and you're at a T14, or vice versa. If you're going to be practicing law in English, I need your English to be perfect.


Is this really true in practice? I know some foreigners at my T6 who struggle to hold a basic conversation in English, but they had the grades to secure summer associate positions at multiple V10 firms. Is the idea there that even if they can't speak the language, their grades "prove" that they can at least read and write it? Or is it that firms are generally going to try to eventually force them to foreign offices where their lack of English skills won't hurt as much?




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