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Anonymous User wrote:Hi!

What are your thoughts on writing samples? Do you just care about how the person writes, or do you consider the strength of the underlying substantive legal arguments? What are typical failings of a writing sample?

Thanks!!

We rarely look at writing samples to my knowledge (or if we do it's someone else who looks). Not enough time at the OCI stage.

if I had bad first semester grades, but much improved second semester grades, should I try to explain or bring up my first semester grades at the screener? And, once you make it to the the callback stage, do grades matter?

Anonymous User wrote:if I had bad first semester grades, but much improved second semester grades, should I try to explain or bring up my first semester grades at the screener? And, once you make it to the the callback stage, do grades matter?

Bring it up if asked. Once you make it to the callback, grades usu. aren't the issue. Personality takes center stage.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:if I had bad first semester grades, but much improved second semester grades, should I try to explain or bring up my first semester grades at the screener? And, once you make it to the the callback stage, do grades matter?

Bring it up if asked. Once you make it to the callback, grades usu. aren't the issue. Personality takes center stage.

I'd agree...though ONLY if asked. no one cares about excuses.

Non-trad student: any feel for an age group at which Big Law hiring might become more difficult (e.g., older than 27, 30, 35). Or, to venture an alternative, would this be too tied up with other factors (e.g., previous career/work experience) to generalize?

thanks for taking so many questions, it's very appreciated.

mr_toad wrote:Non-trad student: any feel for an age group at which Big Law hiring might become more difficult (e.g., older than 27, 30, 35). Or, to venture an alternative, would this be too tied up with other factors (e.g., previous career/work experience) to generalize?

thanks for taking so many questions, it's very appreciated.

if your grades are good, you'll get hired. whether you'll last is another story.

Sorry if it's been asked before (45 pages, I read most of them as the thread developed but can't recall now if it's been asked).

If someone's applying from a clerkship and they have a year gap between graduation -> clerkship do you look too much at what they did during that year? Would it matter then if I didn't do a 2L SA (this question came up before while I was interviewing for first-year associate, i.e. questioning whether I really want to be at a firm)? And while I assume where they did the clerkship matters to some extent, how much does it matter if someone's coming from a flyover district?

Thanks.

Hi. I apologize if any of my questions or some variation thereof have already been asked and answered. I have not read through all 40+ pages of the thread.

I was hoping to get your take on how "diverse" students should best market themselves. I've heard it said numerous times that firms are always looking to recruit diverse candidates, etc., but besides the general advice like "attend minority job fairs" and "apply to diversity scholarship programs," I have found little guidance on how to, for want of a better term, "utilize" my diversity during the recruitment process.

For preselect OCI type recruitment, how does one signify their diversity?

• Symplicity asks for some basic biographical data when creating a profile, but the site makes no mention of how that information is used or if it is even transmitted to employers. Do you know if it is?
• Do recruiters make a point to look for diverse student group affiliations on resumes?
• Is it appropriate to mention cultural/biographical information in a cover letter? (when unrelated to professional experience)
• If including it in your cover letter is fine, would you advise that diverse students do so? (i.e., is it sufficient to just have student group affiliations and languages on your resume and hope the proper inferences are drawn, or should you risk redundancy to make it clear?)
• Is there some other medium for relating this kind of information that I'm not thinking of?
• Should candidates adjust how much emphasis they place on diversity based on how competitive their academic credentials would make them at the firm?
• Is what makes a candidate diverse something that will ever come up during an interview? (I'm contemplating characteristics such as a disability with this question, not something more personal such as sexual orientation.)

On a related note, do you think there's any risk of turning recruiters off by overemphasizing diversity?
I'm half-black, half-Chocktaw (Native American). I also happen to be legally blind and gay. I tend to worry that throwing all of these things together makes it sound as if my entire life is defined by being different and that I must be impossible to relate to, when I'm actually a pretty normal guy. Still, if shotgunning diversity will improve my chances this fall, I'll certainly do it.

Thanks!

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry if it's been asked before (45 pages, I read most of them as the thread developed but can't recall now if it's been asked).

If someone's applying from a clerkship and they have a year gap between graduation -> clerkship do you look too much at what they did during that year? Would it matter then if I didn't do a 2L SA (this question came up before while I was interviewing for first-year associate, i.e. questioning whether I really want to be at a firm)? And while I assume where they did the clerkship matters to some extent, how much does it matter if someone's coming from a flyover district?

Thanks.

honestly, so many variables here that hard to say...but it's quality of clerkship (judged by someone other than me, i know nothing) and grades at that point most likely

Anonymous User wrote:Hi. I apologize if any of my questions or some variation thereof have already been asked and answered. I have not read through all 40+ pages of the thread.

I was hoping to get your take on how "diverse" students should best market themselves. I've heard it said numerous times that firms are always looking to recruit diverse candidates, etc., but besides the general advice like "attend minority job fairs" and "apply to diversity scholarship programs," I have found little guidance on how to, for want of a better term, "utilize" my diversity during the recruitment process.

For preselect OCI type recruitment, how does one signify their diversity?

• Symplicity asks for some basic biographical data when creating a profile, but the site makes no mention of how that information is used or if it is even transmitted to employers. Do you know if it is?
• Do recruiters make a point to look for diverse student group affiliations on resumes?
• Is it appropriate to mention cultural/biographical information in a cover letter? (when unrelated to professional experience)
• If including it in your cover letter is fine, would you advise that diverse students do so? (i.e., is it sufficient to just have student group affiliations and languages on your resume and hope the proper inferences are drawn, or should you risk redundancy to make it clear?)
• Is there some other medium for relating this kind of information that I'm not thinking of?
• Should candidates adjust how much emphasis they place on diversity based on how competitive their academic credentials would make them at the firm?
• Is what makes a candidate diverse something that will ever come up during an interview? (I'm contemplating characteristics such as a disability with this question, not something more personal such as sexual orientation.)

On a related note, do you think there's any risk of turning recruiters off by overemphasizing diversity?
I'm half-black, half-Chocktaw (Native American). I also happen to be legally blind and gay. I tend to worry that throwing all of these things together makes it sound as if my entire life is defined by being different and that I must be impossible to relate to, when I'm actually a pretty normal guy. Still, if shotgunning diversity will improve my chances this fall, I'll certainly do it.

Thanks!

No one will ever ask you about anything you note for all sorts of reasons. I'd be careful to not go over the top as it can sound a little crazy and you don't want that to define you. The best candidates are "winning candidates" who happen to be diverse; not "diverse candidates" who happen to be winning if that makes sense

But diverse student organizations are noted.

itbdvorm wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Hi. I apologize if any of my questions or some variation thereof have already been asked and answered. I have not read through all 40+ pages of the thread.

I was hoping to get your take on how "diverse" students should best market themselves. I've heard it said numerous times that firms are always looking to recruit diverse candidates, etc., but besides the general advice like "attend minority job fairs" and "apply to diversity scholarship programs," I have found little guidance on how to, for want of a better term, "utilize" my diversity during the recruitment process.

For preselect OCI type recruitment, how does one signify their diversity?

• Symplicity asks for some basic biographical data when creating a profile, but the site makes no mention of how that information is used or if it is even transmitted to employers. Do you know if it is?
• Do recruiters make a point to look for diverse student group affiliations on resumes?
• Is it appropriate to mention cultural/biographical information in a cover letter? (when unrelated to professional experience)
• If including it in your cover letter is fine, would you advise that diverse students do so? (i.e., is it sufficient to just have student group affiliations and languages on your resume and hope the proper inferences are drawn, or should you risk redundancy to make it clear?)
• Is there some other medium for relating this kind of information that I'm not thinking of?
• Should candidates adjust how much emphasis they place on diversity based on how competitive their academic credentials would make them at the firm?
• Is what makes a candidate diverse something that will ever come up during an interview? (I'm contemplating characteristics such as a disability with this question, not something more personal such as sexual orientation.)

On a related note, do you think there's any risk of turning recruiters off by overemphasizing diversity?
I'm half-black, half-Chocktaw (Native American). I also happen to be legally blind and gay. I tend to worry that throwing all of these things together makes it sound as if my entire life is defined by being different and that I must be impossible to relate to, when I'm actually a pretty normal guy. Still, if shotgunning diversity will improve my chances this fall, I'll certainly do it.

Thanks!

No one will ever ask you about anything you note for all sorts of reasons. I'd be careful to not go over the top as it can sound a little crazy and you don't want that to define you. The best candidates are "winning candidates" who happen to be diverse; not "diverse candidates" who happen to be winning if that makes sense

But diverse student organizations are noted.

On the topic of diversity and disability, if I roll into an interview in a wheelchair, how does that affect the interview and my chances at a callback, if at all?

Question about undergraduate GPA. I went to a pretty solid undergrad (top 10 public, top 30-40 overall) that tends to produce students with lower GPAs than most universities. As such, I graduated with latin honors and some awards even though my GPA is not objectively very impressive (3.5-3.6) range. Would you recommend including the actual GPA or just the honors on the resume? I originally just had the honors but have received several comments from career services and others saying it looks odd to have my GPA for law school but not for undergrad.

Anonymous User wrote:Question about undergraduate GPA. I went to a pretty solid undergrad (top 10 public, top 30-40 overall) that tends to produce students with lower GPAs than most universities. As such, I graduated with latin honors and some awards even though my GPA is not objectively very impressive (3.5-3.6) range. Would you recommend including the actual GPA or just the honors on the resume? I originally just had the honors but have received several comments from career services and others saying it looks odd to have my GPA for law school but not for undergrad.

It is not at all weird to have honors listed but not your UG GPA. Are you talking about WM? Because people always try to say they don't have the grade inflation of other schools, but it isn't really true.

Anonymous User wrote:

itbdvorm wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Hi. I apologize if any of my questions or some variation thereof have already been asked and answered. I have not read through all 40+ pages of the thread.

I was hoping to get your take on how "diverse" students should best market themselves. I've heard it said numerous times that firms are always looking to recruit diverse candidates, etc., but besides the general advice like "attend minority job fairs" and "apply to diversity scholarship programs," I have found little guidance on how to, for want of a better term, "utilize" my diversity during the recruitment process.

For preselect OCI type recruitment, how does one signify their diversity?

• Symplicity asks for some basic biographical data when creating a profile, but the site makes no mention of how that information is used or if it is even transmitted to employers. Do you know if it is?
• Do recruiters make a point to look for diverse student group affiliations on resumes?
• Is it appropriate to mention cultural/biographical information in a cover letter? (when unrelated to professional experience)
• If including it in your cover letter is fine, would you advise that diverse students do so? (i.e., is it sufficient to just have student group affiliations and languages on your resume and hope the proper inferences are drawn, or should you risk redundancy to make it clear?)
• Is there some other medium for relating this kind of information that I'm not thinking of?
• Should candidates adjust how much emphasis they place on diversity based on how competitive their academic credentials would make them at the firm?
• Is what makes a candidate diverse something that will ever come up during an interview? (I'm contemplating characteristics such as a disability with this question, not something more personal such as sexual orientation.)

On a related note, do you think there's any risk of turning recruiters off by overemphasizing diversity?
I'm half-black, half-Chocktaw (Native American). I also happen to be legally blind and gay. I tend to worry that throwing all of these things together makes it sound as if my entire life is defined by being different and that I must be impossible to relate to, when I'm actually a pretty normal guy. Still, if shotgunning diversity will improve my chances this fall, I'll certainly do it.

Thanks!

No one will ever ask you about anything you note for all sorts of reasons. I'd be careful to not go over the top as it can sound a little crazy and you don't want that to define you. The best candidates are "winning candidates" who happen to be diverse; not "diverse candidates" who happen to be winning if that makes sense

But diverse student organizations are noted.

On the topic of diversity and disability, if I roll into an interview in a wheelchair, how does that affect the interview and my chances at a callback, if at all?

would assume not at all

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Question about undergraduate GPA. I went to a pretty solid undergrad (top 10 public, top 30-40 overall) that tends to produce students with lower GPAs than most universities. As such, I graduated with latin honors and some awards even though my GPA is not objectively very impressive (3.5-3.6) range. Would you recommend including the actual GPA or just the honors on the resume? I originally just had the honors but have received several comments from career services and others saying it looks odd to have my GPA for law school but not for undergrad.

It is not at all weird to have honors listed but not your UG GPA. Are you talking about WM? Because people always try to say they don't have the grade inflation of other schools, but it isn't really true.

i guess i'd just do honors

Any idea how you look at HYS grades? Since P is such a large proportion of the class, do you see it as negative, neutral, etc.? Do you just count up the Hs, or does the grading system + the "prestige" make the analysis more holistic? I'm at H and OCS is all over the place on this, so I was hoping we could get an answer straight from the horse's insider's mouth.

Anonymous User wrote:Any idea how you look at HYS grades? Since P is such a large proportion of the class, do you see it as negative, neutral, etc.? Do you just count up the Hs, or does the grading system + the "prestige" make the analysis more holistic? I'm at H and OCS is all over the place on this, so I was hoping we could get an answer straight from the horse's insider's mouth.

Not 100% sure. I'm sure we have cutoffs (we certainly used to at H and S before the grading system change). Bet we still do. Y I think is more flexible but again, I know we still have standards...

I feel like everyone here is asking some variation of the same question: what are my chances, and what's your grade cut off for my school?

Give it a rest,

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Question about undergraduate GPA. I went to a pretty solid undergrad (top 10 public, top 30-40 overall) that tends to produce students with lower GPAs than most universities. As such, I graduated with latin honors and some awards even though my GPA is not objectively very impressive (3.5-3.6) range. Would you recommend including the actual GPA or just the honors on the resume? I originally just had the honors but have received several comments from career services and others saying it looks odd to have my GPA for law school but not for undergrad.

It is not at all weird to have honors listed but not your UG GPA. Are you talking about WM? Because people always try to say they don't have the grade inflation of other schools, but it isn't really true.

Georgia Tech.

I graduated from Georgia Tech too, listed honors and didn't list undergrad GPA (mine was 3.6). No one seemed bothered by it really.

Cut-off for "highest honors" was like 3.50 or 3.55 right?

Fresh Prince wrote:I feel like everyone here is asking some variation of the same question: what are my chances, and what's your grade cut off for my school?

Give it a rest,

you can be a real douche sometimes. this is a very helpful thread. And people's chances are a very real concern, as they should be.

itbdvorm wrote:

mr_toad wrote:Non-trad student: any feel for an age group at which Big Law hiring might become more difficult (e.g., older than 27, 30, 35). Or, to venture an alternative, would this be too tied up with other factors (e.g., previous career/work experience) to generalize?

thanks for taking so many questions, it's very appreciated.

if your grades are good, you'll get hired. whether you'll last is another story.

Because people in their 30s can't hack the pace as well as someone in their 20s?

Emma. wrote:

itbdvorm wrote:

mr_toad wrote:Non-trad student: any feel for an age group at which Big Law hiring might become more difficult (e.g., older than 27, 30, 35). Or, to venture an alternative, would this be too tied up with other factors (e.g., previous career/work experience) to generalize?

thanks for taking so many questions, it's very appreciated.

if your grades are good, you'll get hired. whether you'll last is another story.

Because people in their 30s can't hack the pace as well as someone in their 20s?

No, because people in their 30s are more likely to have issues with the lifestyle

Anonymous User wrote:

Fresh Prince wrote:I feel like everyone here is asking some variation of the same question: what are my chances, and what's your grade cut off for my school?

Give it a rest,

you can be a real douche sometimes. this is a very helpful thread. And people's chances are a very real concern, as they should be.

No reason to be anonymous. And OP wouldn't be that helpful. This isn't applying to law schools. For OCI, the answer is "maybe" 90% of the time and "definitely not" 10% of the time. Not super helpful.

No, because people in their 30s are more likely to have issues with the lifestyle

First, my bona fides: I'm in my mid 30s, and have been a lawyer for around a decade, split roughly 50-50 between litigating at a V20 firm and doing appellate work for the government, with an AIII clerkship thrown in as well. I'm also married to a non-lawyer prestige professional (think doctor or professor) and have three kids -- we wanted to stop at two, but sometimes there's two blobs on the ultrasound.

Second, the bias against older entry-levels is not a myth. My dad is a senior partner at a 30ish attorney satellite office of a mid-tier firm, and has done a couple of stints as hiring partner. He flat-out told me that they wouldn't hire a first-year over thirty unless they were sure that family wasn't going to be an issue (e.g., someone who is divorced or gay without children). Similarly, he also said that while they are happy to hire younger married women, it's generally assumed that those associates will only be able to work 4-6 years until the second kid comes, with a six month break for the first kid. Of course, my dad is a late 50s/early 60s male who was raised in the south, so his views may not be representative of law firm management as a whole.

Third, and most importantly for this thread, I think that the idea that one cannot balance a biglaw career and a family is wrongheaded, with two caveats. Yes, you work a ton of hours. But you also make a ton of money that you can use to pay someone to watch your children, and once they're in school, you're probably only missing a couple of hours a day compared to a 9-5. If that -- one thing that people forget is that most biglaw attorneys have the mornings with their kids, which is something that someone who has to be at his desk by 8:00 AM doesn't. So yes, you're missing the 6:00-8:00 PM hours that other parents get, but you're also there from 6:30 to 8:30 in the morning when most non-lawyers are commuting.

Caveat 1: If your spouse is a stay-at-home parent, you're probably going to get divorced if you have young children. I almost got divorced when I was billing 2400 a year, and that was pre-kids. My spouse wouldn't last nine months now that we have the gremlins. At some point, when they are taking care of the children and cleaning the house during all waking hours, and their sole "adult" time is basically sitting in front of the TV with you from 9:00-11:00 PM as you scarf down some greasy leftovers or takeaway and try to vege out (read: ignore them) after a twelve hour day, they're going to realize that divorce means one night a week and every other weekend free, and a boyfriend/girlfriend whom they actually get to talk to. Either that, or they go batsh!t crazy, and you're the one who initiates the divorce proceedings. The fact of the matter is that biglaw associate spouses tend to be relatively young and well-educated and have had a career of their own prior to kids -- in other words, probably the least-suited people imaginable to be stuck at home with kids and nothing else from 8:30 AM until bedtime.

Caveat 2: If you both work and have young children, you have a much better chance, but accept it up front that your kids will be raised by nannies/pre-schools. That's not so bad for the kids if you have a quality nanny/pre-school (for our first, we found a great Waldorf school, and for our twins, we hired a wonderful woman whom they now call "second mother"), but the idea that your kids are getting raised by someone else takes some getting used to. Especially for the moms.