What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

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chitown825
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What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby chitown825 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:42 am

Rising 3L with no offer. I'd like to see a comprehensive list of opportunities / places that hire attorneys fresh out of school. I'll start with the obvious...

1. OCI (slim pickings for a 3L)
2. Mass mail firms
3. Judicial clerkships

...what else? Are there any "honors" programs or government jobs that take 3Ls? Do any corporations hire 3Ls fresh out of school?

LoyalRebel
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby LoyalRebel » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:46 am

Join a reputable LLM program, which makes yourself more marketable to legal jobs, as well as teaching.

Risky venture of course, but what isn't these days?

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Grizz
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Grizz » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:48 am

IB LLM flowchart

LoyalRebel
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby LoyalRebel » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:51 am

Grizz wrote:IB LLM flowchart

This is a comprehensive list... meaning all options.

Also, while the LLM gets a bad rap from the know-it-all's at TLS, the actual attorneys I've talked to seem to think it's a wonderful idea.

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Grizz
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Grizz » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:53 am

LoyalRebel wrote:
Grizz wrote:IB LLM flowchart

This is a comprehensive list... meaning all options.

Also, while the LLM gets a bad rap from the know-it-all's at TLS, the actual attorneys I've talked to seem to think it's a wonderful idea.

As weird as this sounds, a lot of actual attorneys don't know anything bout legal hiring.

LoyalRebel
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby LoyalRebel » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:56 am

Grizz wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:
Grizz wrote:IB LLM flowchart

This is a comprehensive list... meaning all options.

Also, while the LLM gets a bad rap from the know-it-all's at TLS, the actual attorneys I've talked to seem to think it's a wonderful idea.

As weird as this sounds, a lot of actual attorneys don't know anything bout legal hiring.

This also might come as a shocker, but a lot of people on the internet don't know anything bout legal hiring either.

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Grizz
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Grizz » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:08 am

LoyalRebel wrote:This also might come as a shocker, but a lot of people on the internet don't know anything bout legal hiring either.

Except for the actually getting legal jobs part.

LoyalRebel
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby LoyalRebel » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:09 am

Grizz wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:This also might come as a shocker, but a lot of people on the internet don't know anything bout legal hiring either.

Except for the actually getting legal jobs part.

Oh, you mean like actual attorneys? You know, the ones who don't know anything about legal hiring?

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Grizz
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Grizz » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:10 am

LoyalRebel wrote:
Grizz wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:This also might come as a shocker, but a lot of people on the internet don't know anything bout legal hiring either.

Except for the actually getting legal jobs part.

Oh, you mean like actual attorneys? You know, the ones who don't know anything about legal hiring?

Not sure if srs

random5483
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby random5483 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:06 am

LoyalRebel wrote:
Grizz wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:This also might come as a shocker, but a lot of people on the internet don't know anything bout legal hiring either.

Except for the actually getting legal jobs part.

Oh, you mean like actual attorneys? You know, the ones who don't know anything about legal hiring?



Why trust what attorneys or TLSers say? Do your own research. Visit big law firm websites and check their attorney profiles. How many have LLMs outside of niche areas like tax or a lawyer with a foreign LLB/US LLM? You will find close to none.


You could still argue that there are other possibilities. Maybe law students are lazy and choose not to get LLMs. But lets be realistic. If law students thought an LLM would get them a good job, we'd see a lot more LLMs. I will let you come to the conclusion about the more likely scenario.

chitown825
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby chitown825 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:22 am

Image

seatown12
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby seatown12 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:29 am

LoyalRebel wrote:Also, while the LLM gets a bad rap from the know-it-all's at TLS, the actual attorneys I've talked to seem to think it's a wonderful idea.

How many of them actually have an LLM?

Aqualibrium
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:49 am

Spending 60k or more on top of the cost of law school in the hopes of getting a job is a bad idea for all but a select few. All the attorneys I know with an LLM fall into three categories:

1. Those who graduated 25+ years ago.
2. Those who already had a job offer.
3. Those who were already working at a firm before going to get their LLM.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:26 am

LOLLM

ETA: Unless tax. And the LLM flowchart is probably outdated at this point, NYU or nothing is probably TCR.

ETA2: I really wish LLMs were more valued. I'd love to do an online bankruptcy LLM during my clerkship year, but (i) the only "decent" bankruptcy LLM is from St. Johns, and UChicago JD --> St. Johns LLM would be :?: :? :shock: :? :lol: .

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:53 am

LLMs are also good for government. But I wouldn't recommend getting one.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:53 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:LLMs are also good for government. But I wouldn't recommend getting one.


Source? I've never heard this.

Anonymous User
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:56 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:LOLLM

ETA: Unless tax. And the LLM flowchart is probably outdated at this point, NYU or nothing is probably TCR.

ETA2: I really wish LLMs were more valued. I'd love to do an online bankruptcy LLM during my clerkship year, but (i) the only "decent" bankruptcy LLM is from St. Johns, and UChicago JD --> St. Johns LLM would be :?: :? :shock: :? :lol: .


I'm not sure how accurate this opinion on tax LLMs is. I have a friend who was in the middle of his class at WUSTL Law, did an LLM at Northwestern (also finished in a mediocre manner) and just got hired (before his graduation) at Deloitte with a barely under six figure salary. His group of friends from the LLM program all have jobs minus the one or two who got their J.D. from much lower ranked schools and can't get over the problem of reputation. So NYU tax LLM or bust isn't really true.

Aqualibrium
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
I have a friend who was in the middle of his class at WUSTL Law, did an LLM at Northwestern (also finished in a mediocre manner) and just got hired (before his graduation) at Deloitte with a barely under six figure salary.



And again, while this story sounds good, it's not always rainbows and butterfly's. I don't know your friend's specific situation, but let's assume nearly 200k in debt and four years of school to work for less than 6 figures in what is probably a major city.

200k debt + less than six figures a year salary + nyc/chicago/etc... + ridiculous taxes & col in NYC/Chicago/etc... = not the greatest life...

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Grizz
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Grizz » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:35 am

Was this job actually a legal job?

Anonymous User
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:06 pm

Grizz wrote:Was this job actually a legal job?


He was hired on as a lawyer for their mergers and acquisitions group, as well as general compliance overview. So yes, it is a legal job.

And I just don't know when making 95,000k a year became too little for a nice lifestyle. Even with debt (not 200,000 of it, btw) and living in NY, you could live comfortably. Maybe the reason why so many law school students finish disappointed is that they have completely unrealistic expectations about lifestyle. I come from a family where my parents combined income is around $100,000. They graduated college with debt and I don't feel like I've been deprived...

Aqualibrium
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Grizz wrote:Was this job actually a legal job?


He was hired on as a lawyer for their mergers and acquisitions group, as well as general compliance overview. So yes, it is a legal job.

And I just don't know when making 95,000k a year became too little for a nice lifestyle. Even with debt (not 200,000 of it, btw) and living in NY, you could live comfortably. Maybe the reason why so many law school students finish disappointed is that they have completely unrealistic expectations about lifestyle. I come from a family where my parents combined income is around $100,000. They graduated college with debt and I don't feel like I've been deprived...


Where did your parents live? What was their level of indebtedness? Was it six figures in one of the most expensive and heavily taxed cities in the world?

All that really is besides the point though. My point isn't that 95k isn't "enough" money. My point is that adding 40-60k to your debt load for an LLM isn't something to take lightly. Yes the story might turn out well for a few folks who make that decision, but that doesn't mean it's just something you do. It isn't or at least shouldn't be a fall back plan for those who couldn't find a job.

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Grizz
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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Grizz » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Grizz wrote:Was this job actually a legal job?


He was hired on as a lawyer for their mergers and acquisitions group, as well as general compliance overview. So yes, it is a legal job.

And I just don't know when making 95,000k a year became too little for a nice lifestyle. Even with debt (not 200,000 of it, btw) and living in NY, you could live comfortably. Maybe the reason why so many law school students finish disappointed is that they have completely unrealistic expectations about lifestyle. I come from a family where my parents combined income is around $100,000. They graduated college with debt and I don't feel like I've been deprived...

Interesting. Maybe there's some sort of hidden market for LLMs out there. Law firms pretty much without exception don't care for them except in a tax context.

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Re: What are 3L options? A comprehensive list...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:58 pm

I am also a 3L who is worried about getting no-offered ( i think my chances of getting no offered are pretty high, due to economic conditions and the history of my firm)

I am thinking about applying to NYU and GULC for a tax LLM, how much does it really help to get a midlaw/biglaw job?




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