WUSL EIW

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby stratocophic » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:59 am

lawdooder wrote:
stratocophic wrote:A thread about our beloved WUSTL's OCI - was there ever any real chance that it wasn't going to end up being SPS on multiple levels?


i just fail to understand why you guys feel blindsided by your schools SPS results.
Spot the flaw in the assumption if that failure's directed my way specifically, but really I dunno if anyone who was paying attention at all going in is/was blindsided. Sucks for many, but maybe things won't be too terrible overall when we see the salary figures in a few years and wade through the creative accounting to see what percentage of the class is making a reasonable salary.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:37 am

A possibly futile attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Did OCI over or underperform the expectations of those who were informed and realistic heading into it, or was it about what was expected? About what % of the class would you say biglaw dipped into? Still about 20?

Just trying to figure out what to possibly expect for next year (although the Dean says it's gonna be worse... awesome).

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby kaiser » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:48 am

0LNewbie wrote:A possibly futile attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Did OCI over or underperform the expectations of those who were informed and realistic heading into it, or was it about what was expected? About what % of the class would you say biglaw dipped into? Still about 20?

Just trying to figure out what to possibly expect for next year (although the Dean says it's gonna be worse... awesome).


What? The Dean told you next year would be worse than this year? What was his basis for concluding that?

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JCougar
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby JCougar » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:06 am

0LNewbie wrote:A possibly futile attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Did OCI over or underperform the expectations of those who were informed and realistic heading into it, or was it about what was expected? About what % of the class would you say biglaw dipped into? Still about 20?

Just trying to figure out what to possibly expect for next year (although the Dean says it's gonna be worse... awesome).


I knew it was probably going to take at least top 25% to get some traction, but I was surprised that there were so few Chicago options.

FWIW, though I know at least two people outside the top 1/3rd with Biglaw offers, although it's mostly because of a confluence of fantastic soft factors.

It's ironic, because people around the country I've met seem really wowed that I go to WUSTL Law (I'm used to TLS people who think it's shit, and it's hard to defend based on placement). I was recently on the West Coast, and was in DC this summer. For whatever reason, this translates into a shitty OCI. I think it's basically because our home location's legal market is smaller than our peers, and also St. Louis firms are incredibly skeptical about hiring from our school because the students aren't from STL and just lateral out to NYC after a few years. Schools around our same ranking BC, BU, GW, Fordham, Texas, USC, UCLA, etc. all have bigger home markets that can absorb a significant chunk of grads (and home markets that are more sexy than St. Louis, so the people placed there actually want to stay for more than 3 years until they become a viable lateral candidate).

I've had some significant traction networking, and others have pretty much their dream job thru networking, and they're not even top 1/3. You can't spin straw into gold networking, but if you're borderline, something is likely to pan out. If people get to meet you and see that you have a decent sense of humor and are passionate about where you want to practice, it's way more impressive and memorable than sending a resume into a recruiter's office that gets screened before the decision-makers even get a chance to see it.

The Dean saying that it's going to get worse is possibly a bit of managing expectations. I don't see any major reasons for it to get worse, but I wouldn't bank on it getting better. The changes in Biglaw are structural, and not cyclical. Their old business model simply is not sustainable any longer. It was wildly inefficient, and clients don't want to pay for training associates, 78% of which will be gone before they even get really good at what they were doing.

It takes a while for things to change, but biglaw is looking more and more for people who will stick around and specialize in one or two areas of interest. And as much as you hear about midlaw not existing, their hiring hasn't really been affected as much during the recession. There's not a ton of these firms out there, but you gotta go to them and get your foot in the door.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:12 am

0LNewbie wrote:A possibly futile attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Did OCI over or underperform the expectations of those who were informed and realistic heading into it, or was it about what was expected? About what % of the class would you say biglaw dipped into? Still about 20?

Just trying to figure out what to possibly expect for next year (although the Dean says it's gonna be worse... awesome).
Pretty much exactly as expected IMO, always a couple of outliers but the majority fell in line with conventional wisdom from what I've heard. I know a median-or-just-below non-IP white dude who got V100. Obviously this isn't going to happen to more than 1 or 2 people in the class. I feel like we've got a shot at doing better than 20% for NLJ250 after graduation but who the eff knows, given the way midwestern offer rates go. Positive that at least 20% have NLJ250 SAs. Could very well be 25-33% with summer NLJ spots but a bunch get no-offered, since that's evidently the way it works once you get past the V100. IMO, if you're a straight white male (maybe female too?)... 10% you're golden for a big market and have a very good shot at cracking a tough small market if you want, top 15% should be good for some biglaw or approximation thereof, it's a tossup around top 20% and top quarter, top 1/3 your chances get pretty scarce, below that... best of luck.

IP changes absolutely everything... seriously, everything. URM can (maybe?) do the same to a lesser extent, I've heard that being female can be a difference-maker, but that's just what I've heard. No idea whether that's just grousing by d00ds or actually true.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby romothesavior » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:46 am

I think it was better than I expected, for a combination of 2 reasons: 1) I was pessimistic as hell heading in and I was prepared for the worst, so just about anything would have pleasantly surprised me, and 2) it was actually a little better than last year. (1) is undoubtedly true, (2) is more of a gut feeling.

I think things were a little better this year compared to last year because of the number of people I know of outside the top 1/4 or even 1/3 with market-paying offers right now. I expected that to be no-mans land for people without IP, incredible WE, or URM status, but have been pleasantly surprised by how many people in that range have landed solid SA jobs. Sure, the average person between 33% and median probably doesn't have a job, but it isn't the dead zone I expected it to be. It also seems like firms are either holding steady, or hiring slightly more SAs. So that's obviously better than the alternative.

That said, there were some definite negatives as well. Chicago was just downright miserable. I mean absolutely, positively pathetic. I know of almost no one going to Chicago next summer, despite almost everyone in the class targeting it to at least some degree. I would not recommend anyone count on Chicago. Apply, sure... but be willing to go elsewhere

The other big downer (and this is a huge one) is seeing people with good grades, good creds, and good personalities doing everything right and still struggling to find something. So many people are doing all the right things, and have solid resumes to match it, and they are still looking. The entire process is maddeningly frustrating and seemingly arbitrary at times. Unless you are in the top 10%, you better live with the fear of god in you.

So yeah, I'm sticking with the prediction of 25% getting an NLJ 250 SA, which after subtracting no-offers and clerkships would put our NLJ 250 graduation number at ~20%.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:20 pm

OCI and EIW itself was as bad as expected (mostly has to do w/ the 100% preselect). Overall, interview season was better than expected. I know it doesn't usually work out, but mass-mailing the home market was the way to go for me, and I would highly recommend it to WUSTL 2Ls, like myself, who aren't OCI locks. I only got 3 screeners at EIW, but got 2 CBs and a screener from mass-mailing, one of which led to the offer that I eventually accepted.

I was looking mostly at Cali, and I found it humorous that the lack of WUSTL presence on the west coast actually seemed favorable. My perception was that west coast firms know absolutely nothing about the school, so they googled it and found out that we're ranked higher than USC. I literally had 3 different CB interviewers say "well, I know it's a highly-ranked school with a great reputation..."

Also, IP is alive and well ITE if you have an Electrical Engineering background and/or engineering professional experience. OTOH, I've seen life sciences and civil/mechanical/chemical engineering people struggling.

Finally, ditto what Romo said about Chi. For what is supposed to be our school's "primary market," it was absolutely gross this year, with or without ties. Don't bank on Chi and be ready to reach out to everywhere else that you might have ties to.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OCI and EIW itself was as bad as expected (mostly has to do w/ the 100% preselect). Overall, interview season was better than expected. I know it doesn't usually work out, but mass-mailing the home market was the way to go for me, and I would highly recommend it to WUSTL 2Ls, like myself, who aren't OCI locks. I only got 3 screeners at EIW, but got 2 CBs and a screener from mass-mailing, one of which led to the offer that I eventually accepted.

I was looking mostly at Cali, and I found it humorous that the lack of WUSTL presence on the west coast actually seemed favorable. My perception was that west coast firms know absolutely nothing about the school, so they googled it and found out that we're ranked higher than USC. I literally had 3 different CB interviewers say "well, I know it's a highly-ranked school with a great reputation..."
Also, IP is alive and well ITE if you have an Electrical Engineering background and/or engineering professional experience. OTOH, I've seen life sciences and civil/mechanical/chemical engineering people struggling.

Finally, ditto what Romo said about Chi. For what is supposed to be our school's "primary market," it was absolutely gross this year, with or without ties. Don't bank on Chi and be ready to reach out to everywhere else that you might have ties to.


3L here. I found it the opposite. I applied to my home market and people were confused as to my school. It is not well represented in the upper midwest. My success with interviews in my home market was due to networking with lawyers. Frankly, most of the lawyers I networked with at regional midlaw firms were from local schools and about half have never heard about wustl at all.
On my callbacks, it seemed like the people that did not know about wustl did not spend any time researching the school.

If you are looking for the upper midwest, ie cleveland, detroit, grand rapids, pittsburgh... go to ND instead of wustl. Most mid size firms have at least a couple of lawyers from ND so they are a known entity. However, most firms in the upper midwest do not have a single wustl lawyer at their firm. In tough economic times, it seems like the firms flock to known entities than take a chance with someone who is less known.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby MrAnon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OCI and EIW itself was as bad as expected (mostly has to do w/ the 100% preselect). Overall, interview season was better than expected. I know it doesn't usually work out, but mass-mailing the home market was the way to go for me, and I would highly recommend it to WUSTL 2Ls, like myself, who aren't OCI locks. I only got 3 screeners at EIW, but got 2 CBs and a screener from mass-mailing, one of which led to the offer that I eventually accepted.

I was looking mostly at Cali, and I found it humorous that the lack of WUSTL presence on the west coast actually seemed favorable. My perception was that west coast firms know absolutely nothing about the school, so they googled it and found out that we're ranked higher than USC. I literally had 3 different CB interviewers say "well, I know it's a highly-ranked school with a great reputation..."
Also, IP is alive and well ITE if you have an Electrical Engineering background and/or engineering professional experience. OTOH, I've seen life sciences and civil/mechanical/chemical engineering people struggling.

Finally, ditto what Romo said about Chi. For what is supposed to be our school's "primary market," it was absolutely gross this year, with or without ties. Don't bank on Chi and be ready to reach out to everywhere else that you might have ties to.


3L here. I found it the opposite. I applied to my home market and people were confused as to my school. It is not well represented in the upper midwest. My success with interviews in my home market was due to networking with lawyers. Frankly, most of the lawyers I networked with at regional midlaw firms were from local schools and about half have never heard about wustl at all.
On my callbacks, it seemed like the people that did not know about wustl did not spend any time researching the school.

If you are looking for the upper midwest, ie cleveland, detroit, grand rapids, pittsburgh... go to ND instead of wustl. Most mid size firms have at least a couple of lawyers from ND so they are a known entity. However, most firms in the upper midwest do not have a single wustl lawyer at their firm. In tough economic times, it seems like the firms flock to known entities than take a chance with someone who is less known.


That's funny because I posted awhile back that most people in many parts of the country would assume Washington University is in Washington state (just as it sounds). The comment made some students or hopefuls at WUSTL irate. Its actually true though. Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.

lolwat
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby lolwat » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:23 pm

Yup. WUSTL is like the least known highly ranked school ever. You can try to spin that into something positive like the guy that looked in Cali did, but it's really just a flat out negative all around.

Wish I had known that before I went, but whatever. Life goes on, and things are fine.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Kabuo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:03 pm

MrAnon wrote:That's funny because I posted awhile back that most people in many parts of the country would assume Washington University is in Washington state (just as it sounds). The comment made some students or hopefuls at WUSTL irate. Its actually true though. Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.


I hope (sort of expect) you're basing this on ATL comments.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:11 pm

MrAnon wrote: Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.

Eh... well first, they do say that about Harvard & Yale, so you're wrong about that. Sometimes I think it also means this: "[most people don't know this but] that's a great school with a great reputation." I got that "vibe" in DC.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby seatown12 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:42 pm

Kabuo wrote:
MrAnon wrote:That's funny because I posted awhile back that most people in many parts of the country would assume Washington University is in Washington state (just as it sounds). The comment made some students or hopefuls at WUSTL irate. Its actually true though. Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.


I hope (sort of expect) you're basing this on ATL comments.

No. I don't know about anywhere else, but on the West Coast at least most people assume you are referring to UW.

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Kabuo
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Kabuo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:55 pm

seatown12 wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
MrAnon wrote:That's funny because I posted awhile back that most people in many parts of the country would assume Washington University is in Washington state (just as it sounds). The comment made some students or hopefuls at WUSTL irate. Its actually true though. Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.


I hope (sort of expect) you're basing this on ATL comments.

No. I don't know about anywhere else, but on the West Coast at least most people assume you are referring to UW.


I'm not interested in the real issue. I'm interested in having my suspicions about Mr Anon's "knowledge" confirmed.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby romothesavior » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:55 pm

Kabuo wrote:
MrAnon wrote:That's funny because I posted awhile back that most people in many parts of the country would assume Washington University is in Washington state (just as it sounds). The comment made some students or hopefuls at WUSTL irate. Its actually true though. Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.


I hope (sort of expect) you're basing this on ATL comments.

I was shocked at how many people at our school didn't realize the ATL comments were jokes. People were like legitimately upset over people calling Washington University the "UW satellite in St. Louis" and a state school or whatever. It seemed like a lot of people missed the joke and didn't realize that this sort of thing is an ATL meme (like confusing Penn and Penn State). Don't people read ATL and the comments?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Kabuo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
MrAnon wrote:That's funny because I posted awhile back that most people in many parts of the country would assume Washington University is in Washington state (just as it sounds). The comment made some students or hopefuls at WUSTL irate. Its actually true though. Anytime someone says that such and such a school is a "great school with a great reputation" it means they are being kind and its not a given. Do they say that about Harvard? Yale? never. Its just known.


I hope (sort of expect) you're basing this on ATL comments.

I was shocked at how many people at our school didn't realize the ATL comments were jokes. People were like legitimately upset over people calling Washington University the "UW satellite in St. Louis" and a state school or whatever. It seemed like a lot of people missed the joke and didn't realize that this sort of thing is an ATL meme (like confusing Penn and Penn State). Don't people read ATL and the comments?


And the NYULS Tribeca campus. Pretty annoyed that got leaked, but I knew it would the second I read it. Also knew what each of the comments were going to be. At least the Penn St thing distracted them from the UW/STL/DC satellite campus jokes to an extent.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby MrAnon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:51 pm

It may be an ATL meme but most people outside of the ozarks think Washington University is in the pacific northwest.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby quadsixm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:59 pm

MrAnon wrote:It may be an ATL meme but most people outside of the ozarks think Washington University is in the pacific northwest.


Yeah, if you're a moron. The name of the school is "Washington University in St. Louis," which should give you a pretty good idea of where it's located. It's also a top-5 (sometimes #1) med school and top-15 university.

I'm not from the continental US, and people from my hometown know the school.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby seatown12 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:09 pm

quadsixm wrote:Yeah, if you're a moron. The name of the school is "Washington University in St. Louis," which should give you a pretty good idea of where it's located. It's also a top-5 (sometimes #1) med school and top-15 university.

I'm not from the continental US, and people from my hometown know the school.

Why do you think they had to change the official name to include Saint Louis?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby quadsixm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:22 pm

seatown12 wrote:
quadsixm wrote:Yeah, if you're a moron. The name of the school is "Washington University in St. Louis," which should give you a pretty good idea of where it's located. It's also a top-5 (sometimes #1) med school and top-15 university.

I'm not from the continental US, and people from my hometown know the school.

Why do you think they had to change the official name to include Saint Louis?


It's been Wash U in St. Louis as long as I've been alive, so who cares?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Kabuo » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:08 am

MrAnon wrote:It may be an ATL meme but most people outside of the ozarks think Washington University is in the pacific northwest.


Except for, you know, the people in the pacific northwest who know their state school is UW and not WU.

seatown12
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby seatown12 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:58 am

Why are people getting so frustrated about this, it's not like the fact that the school has a confusing name diminishes the value of your degree.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:03 pm

seatown12 wrote:Why are people getting so frustrated about this, it's not like the fact that the school has a confusing name diminishes the value of your degree.


No it does diminish the value of the degree when you go on informational interviews and no one knows where your school is. Ive had associate ask me about my school and treated it like a TTT.
Or when associates say we tend to recruit only from schools ranked around USC....
Or when a client asks you where you went to school and they have no idea about the school. School name isn't the only factor, but I think is a relatively important factor.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby romothesavior » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:21 pm

seatown12 wrote:Why are people getting so frustrated about this, it's not like the fact that the school has a confusing name diminishes the value of your degree.

I don't really get upset over it, especially since I want to stay in the Midwest and everyone here has heard of WUSTL. I've never had an experience like this. I don't doubt the people who say they've had experiences where people didn't know the school. However, others have said they've had the opposite experience, so to pretend like "no one has heard of it" is just a stupid thing to say. Maybe some 28 year old associate doing a 20-minute callback interview won't know what it is, but you can bet that just about every big firm recruiter/hiring partner will and should know of WUSTL.

And I'm sorry, but if you are an educated person from the United States and don't know what WUSTL is, you're a total dipshit. It isn't an "elite" institution like the Ivies, Johns Hopkins, MIT, etc., or even quite on the recognition level of say Duke or Northwestern, but it is very well-respected across the board (undergrad, med school, law school, business school, etc). You would have to really have your head stuck in the sand to be clueless about the school.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby lolwat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:14 pm

I don't doubt the people who say they've had experiences where people didn't know the school. However, others have said they've had the opposite experience, so to pretend like "no one has heard of it" is just a stupid thing to say.


This can vary between people, who they talk to, and what market they're targeting. Obviously many people have heard of WUSTL, but the fact that people have had experiences where others haven't is already enough to give some pause. Sure, you can call the people that don't know the school morons, dipshits, or clueless all you want, but at the end of the day, their lack of knowledge about WUSTL affects job prospects and hurts the students seeking employment. That 28-year old associate doing an interview may very well treat you differently if they thought you went to a TTT school than if you went to a top 20 school.

Why are people getting so frustrated about this, it's not like the fact that the school has a confusing name diminishes the value of your degree.


Prestige and name recognition is probably the larger part of the value of a degree than the actual education you get from the school. Lack of name recognition does absolutely diminish the value of the degree.




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