WUSL EIW

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quadsixm
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby quadsixm » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:33 am

seatown12 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:PSA: When you have an offer, you celebrate quietly with your friends. You tell your closest confidantes, and you do so tastefully. You do not announce it to all of your unemployed fellow classmates in class while doing a little jig. Nor do you post it on Facebook for all the world to see.

The in class thing is ridiculous, but someone who just got an offer should feel free to post on Facebook. No one outside the neurotic law school bubble would ever object to this. Only weak, jealous people are offended or threatened by others' successes.


Yes, most people with a certain level of class would object to this. It has nothing to do with people being weak, jealous, or threatened by others' successes. It has everything to do with the fact that a huge chunk of our peers/age group, in and out of law school, are struggling to find a job. Waving any job, legal or otherwise, in the face of your unemployed friends is distasteful and reflects poorly upon oneself.

Oban
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Oban » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:20 pm

Honestly, As long as people aren't being dicks/humblebragging all over the place, I actually want them to post/talk about jobs so I can know whats going on. We all find out anyway, what does it matter if its on facebook now or in person 3 months from now?

It's kind of like dating in undergrad. Updating your facebook to be "in a relationship" is credited. Posting on someones wall "HEY BRO, I FUCKED THAT GIRL YOU LIKE" is not.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone else with news on Bryan Cave?

Have only heard of two offers: One here and one at Illinois.



I'm assuming by the WUSTL you are referring to the St. Louis office?

I am still waiting on Chicago ... any info would be great.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:10 pm

Final tally :

Top 20% + LR, non IP, non URM, targeted the midwest
19 screeners (all but 1 were thru OCI... mass mailing sucks hard)
8 callbacks
2 offers (declined a few callbacks and will be turning down other firms now that I have accepted)

Just accepted at a firm I would never have imagined taking at the start of this cycle. Both of my offers were firms that I didn't even expect a CB from. I think the lesson is that this whole process is just crazy sometimes, and you really have to keep an open mind. I fell in love with the firm I just accepted and I never would have thought I'd make this decision (and most people who know me wouldn't either).

Another side note is that the Chicago market is atrocious, appalling, horrendous. Only one screener there despite being born and raised in Illinois. How can that really be our best market? Holy hell. Prospective students should be very wary about coming here with the intention to go to Chicago. You should really hedge your bets and build connections in other markets, because Chicago has been brutal for all but the very top students.

Anyways, I think everyone whose cycle has come to a close should post their final results and their reflections, both for our class and for future students. TLS has a wealth of great information, and I know this kind of info would really help future students with their decisions.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:54 pm

Transfer - towards top of class at T2 last year
3 screeners (+1 interview in public sector outside OCI)**
2 callbacks
1 offer - which I accepted before bothering to find out about the other firm (and later withdrew)... the offer was for the firm I wanted.

** Would have likely/hopefully received more screeners, but I only bid on ~6 or 7 firms. There were few firms that appealed to me (no fault of WUSTL's selection of firms whatsoever), and I wasn't/am not even sure if I want to do biglaw for various reasons. Targeted Chicago/STL/random midwest, for the limited targeting I even did, as ending up in the midwest is really the only thing I know I want.

Although I went into this whole process not intending or even wanting to go this route for the summer or after graduation, I accepted a biglaw offer. Ultimately figured an SA position would be more professionally beneficial both short-term and long-term for someone undecided like me, and will give me a chance to affirm or disaffirm my feelings towards large law firms. Plus, after the callback, I really liked the people at the firm where I've accepted.

Didn't expect to get any callbacks, let alone an offer. I do interview pretty well, and have a strong resume and WE. As has been said many times before, it only takes 1 offer. Advice is to not give up hope; it's still early and 75%+ of the class doesn't have anything lined up for the summer at this point. Yet, every one will have a job by the time summer does roll around. Even if you don't get into biglaw now, there are ways to get there in the future.

Not sure how other transfers have fared, due to not talking about it with anyone.

seatown12
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby seatown12 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:58 pm

quadsixm wrote:
seatown12 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:PSA: When you have an offer, you celebrate quietly with your friends. You tell your closest confidantes, and you do so tastefully. You do not announce it to all of your unemployed fellow classmates in class while doing a little jig. Nor do you post it on Facebook for all the world to see.

The in class thing is ridiculous, but someone who just got an offer should feel free to post on Facebook. No one outside the neurotic law school bubble would ever object to this. Only weak, jealous people are offended or threatened by others' successes.


Yes, most people with a certain level of class would object to this. It has nothing to do with people being weak, jealous, or threatened by others' successes. It has everything to do with the fact that a huge chunk of our peers/age group, in and out of law school, are struggling to find a job. Waving any job, legal or otherwise, in the face of your unemployed friends is distasteful and reflects poorly upon oneself.

The comparison to posting about a relationship is a good one. Is it also "distasteful" for people to post about their birthday, or getting a new dog, or the great time they had this weekend? Why can't you just be happy for another person?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Transfer - towards top of class at T2 last year
3 screeners (+1 interview in public sector outside OCI)**
2 callbacks
1 offer - which I accepted before bothering to find out about the other firm (and later withdrew)... the offer was for the firm I wanted.

** Would have likely/hopefully received more screeners, but I only bid on ~6 or 7 firms. There were few firms that appealed to me (no fault of WUSTL's selection of firms whatsoever), and I wasn't/am not even sure if I want to do biglaw for various reasons. Targeted Chicago/STL/random midwest, for the limited targeting I even did, as ending up in the midwest is really the only thing I know I want.

Although I went into this whole process not intending or even wanting to go this route for the summer or after graduation, I accepted a biglaw offer. Ultimately figured an SA position would be more professionally beneficial both short-term and long-term for someone undecided like me, and will give me a chance to affirm or disaffirm my feelings towards large law firms. Plus, after the callback, I really liked the people at the firm where I've accepted.

Didn't expect to get any callbacks, let alone an offer. I do interview pretty well, and have a strong resume and WE. As has been said many times before, it only takes 1 offer. Advice is to not give up hope; it's still early and 75%+ of the class doesn't have anything lined up for the summer at this point. Yet, every one will have a job by the time summer does roll around. Even if you don't get into biglaw now, there are ways to get there in the future.

Not sure how other transfers have fared, due to not talking about it with anyone.



Also a transfer + in top 20% of class at T2 + invited to LR at previous law school and am on secondary journal at WUSTL

4 screeners
3 callbacks
no offers yet (fingers crossed)

If you are willing to say, I am curious who your offers have been with and with which firm you will be working next summer. :)
By the way - congrats!!

I hope everyone is successful, but it is especially nice to see a transfer making such a smooth transition.

Continued best of luck to all!!

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quadsixm
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby quadsixm » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:20 am

seatown12 wrote:The comparison to posting about a relationship is a good one. Is it also "distasteful" for people to post about their birthday, or getting a new dog, or the great time they had this weekend? Why can't you just be happy for another person?


Me, personally? I'm ecstatic for everyone that has a job. I like my classmates, and I like hearing from then personally when they do well.

But is it seriously beyond your level of empathy to understand that people who have not been as fortunate might be upset? Are you seriously equating someone else getting a new dog to NOT being $160,000 in debt and having no foreseeable way of paying it off? What sort of joy, exactly, do you get from sharing this fact online with 1000 of your closest friends? Is that joy really worth the risk of alienating your classmates (as insignificant as you may believe them to be?) Do you also run through the streets of Somalia, yelling "I'M RICH, BITCH!"?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:Also a transfer + in top 20% of class at T2 + invited to LR at previous law school and am on secondary journal at WUSTL

4 screeners
3 callbacks
no offers yet (fingers crossed)

If you are willing to say, I am curious who your offers have been with and with which firm you will be working next summer. :)
By the way - congrats!!

I hope everyone is successful, but it is especially nice to see a transfer making such a smooth transition.

Continued best of luck to all!!


^From the anon transfer earlier: The two CB's were each for NLJ250 firms in Chicago and KC. Don't want to out myself and say which one gave the offer that I accepted, as it can be rather easy to figure out transfers due to the select number of us.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:43 am

quadsixm wrote:
seatown12 wrote:The comparison to posting about a relationship is a good one. Is it also "distasteful" for people to post about their birthday, or getting a new dog, or the great time they had this weekend? Why can't you just be happy for another person?


Me, personally? I'm ecstatic for everyone that has a job. I like my classmates, and I like hearing from then personally when they do well.

But is it seriously beyond your level of empathy to understand that people who have not been as fortunate might be upset? Are you seriously equating someone else getting a new dog to NOT being $160,000 in debt and having no foreseeable way of paying it off? What sort of joy, exactly, do you get from sharing this fact online with 1000 of your closest friends? Is that joy really worth the risk of alienating your classmates (as insignificant as you may believe them to be?) Do you also run through the streets of Somalia, yelling "I'M RICH, BITCH!"?

+1. Posting job shit on Facebook is done to brag, plain and simple. You want to tell your friends and family you got a job? Go for it. It's big news. But I don't understand what purpose is served by exclaiming, "Yay I got the job of my dreams!!! <3 <3 <3" to 1,000 people with the hopes of getting it on everyone's news feed. And it is completely different than posting about a birthday or getting a new dog. Jesus Christ, that is a pretty ridiculous comparison to make.

Also, I was going to let this go before, but "jealous" and "weak?" Really duder? If that was just some dig at me, you should CHECK YOU ASSUMPTIONS. It isn't just people who are jobless who think this is douchey behavior; it is objectively tactless. I know folks with offers at some of the best law firms in the country, and they have handled themselves with class from the moment they walked in as a 1L. When they do well, you are happy for them and respect them. Why? Because they don't walk into classrooms dancing and shouting about their offer when they know all too well that their good friends are miserable about the pile of ding letters they've gotten.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Grizz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:27 am

Oban wrote:Honestly, As long as people aren't being dicks/humblebragging all over the place, I actually want them to post/talk about jobs so I can know whats going on. We all find out anyway, what does it matter if its on facebook now or in person 3 months from now?

It's kind of like dating in undergrad. Updating your facebook to be "in a relationship" is credited. Posting on someones wall "HEY BRO, I FUCKED THAT GIRL YOU LIKE" is not.

lol updating you relationship status on FB is BETA as fuck.

seatown12
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby seatown12 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:10 am

quadsixm wrote:
seatown12 wrote:The comparison to posting about a relationship is a good one. Is it also "distasteful" for people to post about their birthday, or getting a new dog, or the great time they had this weekend? Why can't you just be happy for another person?


But is it seriously beyond your level of empathy to understand that people who have not been as fortunate might be upset? Are you seriously equating someone else getting a new dog to NOT being $160,000 in debt and having no foreseeable way of paying it off? What sort of joy, exactly, do you get from sharing this fact online with 1000 of your closest friends? Is that joy really worth the risk of alienating your classmates (as insignificant as you may believe them to be?) Do you also run through the streets of Somalia, yelling "I'M RICH, BITCH!"?

I don't have a job yet, I'm a 3L, and there's a very real chance I won't get one until months after I graduate. I'm happy for people who get jobs for the very same reason you're upset--the job situation is scary for everyone so I'm happy for anyone who is successful. Maybe nobody else feels this way. I've already expressed my opinion of those who are unable or unwilling to be happy for another person.

Also, did you compare your situation as a JD to the people of Somalia? And you're trying to tell me about empathy?

romothesavior wrote:
seatown12 wrote:The comparison to posting about a relationship is a good one. Is it also "distasteful" for people to post about their birthday, or getting a new dog, or the great time they had this weekend? Why can't you just be happy for another person?

+1. Posting job shit on Facebook is done to brag, plain and simple. You want to tell your friends and family you got a job? Go for it. It's big news. But I don't understand what purpose is served by exclaiming, "Yay I got the job of my dreams!!! <3 <3 <3" to 1,000 people with the hopes of getting it on everyone's news feed. And it is completely different than posting about a birthday or getting a new dog. Jesus Christ, that is a pretty ridiculous comparison to make.

How can you assume that posting stuff on Facebook is done just to brag? You don't understand what purpose is served by making a post expressing excitement about getting the job of your dreams? The whole point of Facebook is to easily communicate with friends and family. Why not post about a job like any other happy life event?

Your argument is that it's wrong to post about the job on Facebook because other people who see it and don't have a job will be "miserable" in comparison. How is that not jealousy??

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:59 am

Grizz wrote:
Oban wrote:Honestly, As long as people aren't being dicks/humblebragging all over the place, I actually want them to post/talk about jobs so I can know whats going on. We all find out anyway, what does it matter if its on facebook now or in person 3 months from now?

It's kind of like dating in undergrad. Updating your facebook to be "in a relationship" is credited. Posting on someones wall "HEY BRO, I FUCKED THAT GIRL YOU LIKE" is not.

lol updating you relationship status on FB is BETA as fuck.


+1

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby camstant » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:28 pm

seatown12 wrote:How can you assume that posting stuff on Facebook is done just to brag? You don't understand what purpose is served by making a post expressing excitement about getting the job of your dreams? The whole point of Facebook is to easily communicate with friends and family. Why not post about a job like any other happy life event?

Your argument is that it's wrong to post about the job on Facebook because other people who see it and don't have a job will be "miserable" in comparison. How is that not jealousy??


Because of the fact that people know how facebook is actually used, I would assume that it would be to brag depending on how it was conveyed. That perception does not make me jealous, but it surely makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed for the person posting it.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby stratocophic » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:47 pm

camstant wrote:
seatown12 wrote:How can you assume that posting stuff on Facebook is done just to brag? You don't understand what purpose is served by making a post expressing excitement about getting the job of your dreams? The whole point of Facebook is to easily communicate with friends and family. Why not post about a job like any other happy life event?

Your argument is that it's wrong to post about the job on Facebook because other people who see it and don't have a job will be "miserable" in comparison. How is that not jealousy??


Because of the fact that people know how facebook is actually used, I would assume that it would be to brag depending on how it was conveyed. That perception does not make me jealous, but it surely makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed for the person posting it.
Besides, even if it's not meant to brag... the majority creates the social norms. If someone doesn't like those standards, they don't have to follow them. They just have to be aware that you aren't given a get out of jail free card for the social sanctions that go hand in hand with disregarding those norms. It's hard to fault the majority when the way to avoid those sanctions is to simply... not do something. It's a crappy situation, but it's also a crappy system that puts everyone in this spot to begin with.

ETA: to be clear, I don't really have a problem with people putting that kind of stuff on Facebook, but I'm in the minority. Not having a problem with it also won't stop me from rolling my eyes at people who do it, and I'm definitely not going to fault the ones who think that it's dumb/inappropriate.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:18 pm

The latest series of posts regarding the announcement of an offer (or, as it sounds like, any success or happiness in one's life) has turned seriously unproductive.

For those of you making arguments that turn on whether it is fair, classy, distasteful, hurtful, etc. you may want to consider whether you are going into the right profession.

Life isn't fair and the legal profession is full of hurtful truths. If you let it get to you, then that is your problem.

I would seriously like to see this blog get back to the point - what firms have made offers, what are the overall experiences of people (screeners, callbacks, offers), what are some other strategies people are considering if they do not get an offer, etc.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The latest series of posts regarding the announcement of an offer (or, as it sounds like, any success or happiness in one's life) has turned seriously unproductive.

For those of you making arguments that turn on whether it is fair, classy, distasteful, hurtful, etc. you may want to consider whether you are going into the right profession.

Life isn't fair and the legal profession is full of hurtful truths. If you let it get to you, then that is your problem.

I would seriously like to see this blog get back to the point - what firms have made offers, what are the overall experiences of people (screeners, callbacks, offers), what are some other strategies people are considering if they do not get an offer, etc.



Also, it would be nice if we could refrain from using profanities. Talk about being distasteful and lacking any class whatsoever.

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quadsixm
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby quadsixm » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:47 pm

seatown12 wrote:I don't have a job yet, I'm a 3L, and there's a very real chance I won't get one until months after I graduate. I'm happy for people who get jobs for the very same reason you're upset--the job situation is scary for everyone so I'm happy for anyone who is successful. Maybe nobody else feels this way. I've already expressed my opinion of those who are unable or unwilling to be happy for another person.

Also, did you compare your situation as a JD to the people of Somalia? And you're trying to tell me about empathy?

There's a clear logical difference between being happy about the content of what's being conveyed, and the way that it was conveyed.

And no, unlike your dog reference, my Somalia reference was obviously in jest. I just wanted to work some Dave Chapelle in there.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also, it would be nice if we could refrain from using profanities. Talk about being distasteful and lacking any class whatsoever.

Well shit, I am real sorry.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:14 am

Ignoring the last dozen posts... any other WUSTLers having success from OCI? Would be great if others posted stats and results... I know there are others that have done well.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Ignoring the last dozen posts... any other WUSTLers having success from OCI? Would be great if others posted stats and results... I know there are others that have done well.
Yeah, got one V100 offer out of it and another through a different route but I can't post stats or I'll out myself. Got 2 V100 CBs out of OCI but nothing from smaller/midwestern firms. Stopped doing screeners as soon as I got my first offer to give others a chance and because I liked that firm enough to where I'd have been happy with it. I was kind of in a weird spot where basically no firms from my home market came to OCI, my grades were too low for really selective NY/DC/Chi firms, and I didn't have enough ties to get any CBs with the usual suspects in the Midwest. Weird stuff, but I got my first choice firm back home anyway so I guess I was born lucky or something.

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone else with news on Bryan Cave?

Have only heard of two offers: One here and one at Illinois.



I'm assuming by the WUSTL you are referring to the St. Louis office?

I am still waiting on Chicago ... any info would be great.



Any other St. Louis office news?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:09 am

Has anyone gotten or heard of offers from Husch STL?

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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby JCougar » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:37 pm

It makes me happy when I hear about the success of others here (except for when I hear about a gunner douchebag or two). I don't really care if people already have offers yet or not...good for them if they do, and represent the school well when you graduate.

But the entire system makes no sense. There's no way you can convince me that arbitrary and subjective scores on a timed, 3-hour exam format that is a century old really says much about each individual's ability. Big firms themselves admit that grades have little predictive power over an associates' success at a firm. In the 100 years since the law school exam was developed, testing science has moved forward leaps and bounds. We've found out that tests where the main constraint is time (rather than the difficulty of the material) are some of the worst tests you can give. Tests with severe time constraints are extremely poor measures of knowledge, skill, ability, retention, and application. And the subjective nature of how you accumulate points on these tests (a nature that varies heavily depending on what professor you happen to have) makes them even worse. Why law schools and law firms continue to use and rely on outdated and obsolete testing methods is beyond me. You might as well have a school-wide timed crossword-puzzle-solving contest, and say whoever solves the crossword puzzles the fastest gets the only jobs out there.

The two things law school grades do give firms are plausible deniability and marketability. Even if grades don't mean anything, clients have the impression that they do, and firms don't really have a better way of sorting out who will be good from who won't, so they just use grades because they have no other options or methods to whittle down the list of 1,000 applicants they get for 3 positions. Plus, if someone from the top 10% screws up, you can be like, "we did our due diligence on this guy/gal...he/she got great grades."

That's not to say that it doesn't take talent and hard work to score highly, but I'm pretty sure that bad or average grades in law school are not proof of the reverse, either. And there's some really dumb people that end up in the top 10%. Some people have superior typing skills, some are just mentally more predisposed to answer in a fashion that impresses law school professors, some just luck out and happen to think like the professor, some got a fantastic outline from a 2L and just copied it down on their exam, and others are simply better at thinking under severe time constraints. When you can basically spot all the issues on an exam but get a median grade because you didn't rack up "analysis" points due to lack of words used in explaining the problem, it really signifies a problem. And when the professors themselves don't even believe in the grades they give, but are forced to due to the law school format, it's another good sign that the system is out of control.

In the real world you don't have only three hours to prepare a brief or answer a legal question. In fact, you are encouraged to be thorough and complete, and think things through overnight, and revise and edit things.

So if you're on law review, congratulations, and I hope you get a great job. I really do. You're no better or worse than your classmates, but I'd rather you get that job than someone from another school, because, after all, you're part of the WUSTL family. But if you brag about it, I'm not going to be impressed with your skill or think that you're a better person or really smarter than anyone else. You just happened to be one of those lucky people for whom law school exams come naturally.

The test is not over once 1L is complete. The real world is the next test, and plenty of people will get laid off or fired from Biglaw firms, some won't be able to hack the hours, and plenty of people will start their career in shitlaw and be awesome at it and later lateral in to biglaw firms with only a few years before they make partner. Some people who start out in shitlaw will become successful plaintiff's attorneys and get richer a lot quicker and with less work than you do with biglaw. You have much better chances if you're in the former group, but the attrition rate for biglaw is extremely high. If you can hack it for 3-4 years and live like a college student, maybe you can pay off that mountain of debt that the rest of us will have to live under for the next 30 years. Even if you do, maybe you'll marry some hot chick that only loves you for your money and prestige, and she'll cheat on you and divorce you in 5 years because you're never at home to give her attention and you're always get called in to do work on the weekends. Or maybe you'll marry someone awesome who can't take your lifestyle and divorces you anyway.

Getting a good job out of school is a significant step, and congrats to you if you can do it. But it's not a coronation. So if you act like it is (instead of acting like it's nothing more than a significant step), then you're a douchebag. And if you base your entire self-esteem on this one little step, you're probably going to have problems down the road. But if you can talk about your offer without acting like it's a coronation, than I'd love to hear about it.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSL EIW

Postby romothesavior » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:57 pm

Hey jcougar, just curious... how do you feel about grades being used by firms as a metric for hiring?

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