Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

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KamaalTheAbstract
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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:22 pm

YourCaptain wrote:Do we have %-estimates for NLJ250 as of this time for the Midwest T25s (include OSU I guess)

What good are estimates? Just look at last years and assume it will be more or less the same.

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romothesavior
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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby romothesavior » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:49 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:Do we have %-estimates for NLJ250 as of this time for the Midwest T25s (include OSU I guess)

What good are estimates? Just look at last years and assume it will be more or less the same.

+1. How can anyone estimate at this point?

A friend and I were trying to count up all the people we know with summer associate jobs for next year. We came up with like 30ish. Of course, this doesn't include all the people we don't know, all the people we haven't heard about, all the transfers (who neither of us really know that well), the people who will get jobs between now and next summer, etc. In other words, our "estimate" isn't worth a damn.

My guess? 20-25% will have NLJ 250 SAs, same as it has been. Some of these folks will clerk, which will push the number to ~20% after graduation.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:10 pm

Hodges said they would let people know about callbacks in early October. Which gives me the feeling the people getting CBs might not be on here :(

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:33 pm

Anyone have an idea of the numbers for people (whether 2L or 3L) with law-related jobs, not just at NLJ250 firms? For those not set on biglaw (and for those set on NOT doing biglaw), that is more important.

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romothesavior
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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby romothesavior » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have an idea of the numbers for people (whether 2L or 3L) with law-related jobs, not just at NLJ250 firms? For those not set on biglaw (and for those set on NOT doing biglaw), that is more important.

Still too early, and far harder to say. I know some folks who are aiming for small firms intentionally and skipped OCI. I know others looking to do JAG, PI and governmental work. Most of these won't hire for a while. On the other hand, I know a few people who took some questionable jobs for next summer that will not lead to permanent employment, so how should we view those people?

Just hard to really guestimate at this point.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hodges said they would let people know about callbacks in early October. Which gives me the feeling the people getting CBs might not be on here :(


It's still early October :)

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have an idea of the numbers for people (whether 2L or 3L) with law-related jobs, not just at NLJ250 firms? For those not set on biglaw (and for those set on NOT doing biglaw), that is more important.

Still too early, and far harder to say. I know some folks who are aiming for small firms intentionally and skipped OCI. I know others looking to do JAG, PI and governmental work. Most of these won't hire for a while. On the other hand, I know a few people who took some questionable jobs for next summer that will not lead to permanent employment, so how should we view those people?

Just hard to really guestimate at this point.


I agree it's hard to pin down. Of course, we can eliminate those who haven't gotten jobs lined up yet, since I'm kind of looking for a number measuring who already has a job lined up. By a job, I guess I mean (for 2L's) a 2L summer paid position in the practice of law (which could include PI/gov't or military summers in JAG) that, based just on the type of job, would presumably lead to a potential full-time job offer. That would count law firm jobs, in-house internships, gov't jobs that hire new law grads, fed gov't internships programs, JAG summer, etc. but would not include volunteer positions, gov't internships for agencies or organizations that don't generally hire new grads, non-law jobs, etc.

At the current time, I'd put that number at maybe 20-30% here at a Minny/Wisconsin/Indiana/Iowa school. That might be a high estimate, and it's cut in half if you eliminate those with job options for the summer that are substantially different (and perceived to be worse) than what the student is seeking.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:02 pm

Allstate Insurance - anyone hear from them?

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Oban » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Honestly St. Louis is kind of a TTT city, but it isn't that bad. It's honestly a good place to go to school, enough going on not to go crazy. However I would not want to live her forever. That said, why come to a school that predominantly feeds the "midwaste" if you don't want to end up here.


One of the anti-wustlers

The school doesn't feed well into the midwest. That was one of the major points I wanted to make. I am actually from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. Check the amount of alumni in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan at midlaw/biglaw firms. There are almost no WUSTL alumni in those states. If you compare WUSTL in those states vs ND or UIUC the results are shocking....
When you have associates in the midwest asking me questions about my school and saying they never heard of it... you have a problem. I know this is an anectdote, but I think it shows that WUSTL has a huge problem placing people in the midwest.

I'd like to hear what other people think.


how the fuck can an associate at a respectable firm never have heard of wustl. I new what woostl was before I was even applying to law school because it is a nationally known school. I'd never want to work with people who hadn't heard of any the main/top schools, it shows a lack of exposure or knowledge.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:51 am

Oban wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Honestly St. Louis is kind of a TTT city, but it isn't that bad. It's honestly a good place to go to school, enough going on not to go crazy. However I would not want to live her forever. That said, why come to a school that predominantly feeds the "midwaste" if you don't want to end up here.


One of the anti-wustlers

The school doesn't feed well into the midwest. That was one of the major points I wanted to make. I am actually from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. Check the amount of alumni in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan at midlaw/biglaw firms. There are almost no WUSTL alumni in those states. If you compare WUSTL in those states vs ND or UIUC the results are shocking....
When you have associates in the midwest asking me questions about my school and saying they never heard of it... you have a problem. I know this is an anectdote, but I think it shows that WUSTL has a huge problem placing people in the midwest.

I'd like to hear what other people think.


how the fuck can an associate at a respectable firm never have heard of wustl. I new what woostl was before I was even applying to law school because it is a nationally known school. I'd never want to work with people who hadn't heard of any the main/top schools, it shows a lack of exposure or knowledge.


Blatant ND trolling. Here is an answer for you, because nobody wants to live in Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan. When asked where they would like to live, I serious doubt that most people would respond with "Detroit, Michigan" or "Cleveland, Ohio!" WUSTL does not have a huge problem with placing people in the Midwest; think two words "self selection."

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Oban wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Honestly St. Louis is kind of a TTT city, but it isn't that bad. It's honestly a good place to go to school, enough going on not to go crazy. However I would not want to live her forever. That said, why come to a school that predominantly feeds the "midwaste" if you don't want to end up here.


One of the anti-wustlers

The school doesn't feed well into the midwest. That was one of the major points I wanted to make. I am actually from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. Check the amount of alumni in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan at midlaw/biglaw firms. There are almost no WUSTL alumni in those states. If you compare WUSTL in those states vs ND or UIUC the results are shocking....
When you have associates in the midwest asking me questions about my school and saying they never heard of it... you have a problem. I know this is an anectdote, but I think it shows that WUSTL has a huge problem placing people in the midwest.

I'd like to hear what other people think.


how the fuck can an associate at a respectable firm never have heard of wustl. I new what woostl was before I was even applying to law school because it is a nationally known school. I'd never want to work with people who hadn't heard of any the main/top schools, it shows a lack of exposure or knowledge.


Blatant ND trolling. Here is an answer for you, because nobody wants to live in Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan. When asked where they would like to live, I serious doubt that most people would respond with "Detroit, Michigan" or "Cleveland, Ohio!" WUSTL does not have a huge problem with placing people in the Midwest; think two words "self selection."


I don't know anyone at WUSTL who was looking for the C-cities in Ohio, or Detroit/Indy/etc, has ties to that city, is above median, and was completely shut out. Granted, I hardly know most of the 2L class or last year's 3Ls, let alone their employment preferences, but I would be shocked if more than 25% were targeting those cities at all with sincerity. Sure, WUSTL has more challenges than most schools when it comes to name recognition and perceived prestige, but if you are talking with a recruiter (let alone any warm body) at a mid/biglaw firm in the midwest and they haven't heard of WUSTL law?... That tells you more about that firm then it does our school.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:04 am

Honigman and Miller Canfield are arguably the best two firms in Detroit. They have two WUST grads between them. Without comparing WUST to any other school, I would say that's problematic. Trash Detroit all you want, but there are a dozen firms there that start associates at 100k+ and if you're going to be a "national" Midwest law school you'd probably like to have more of a presence among the top two firms in a large Midwestern city. Particularly given all the complaints here about this current round of OCI.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:I don't know anyone at WUSTL who was looking for the C-cities in Ohio, or Detroit/Indy/etc, has ties to that city, is above median, and was completely shut out. Granted, I hardly know most of the 2L class or last year's 3Ls, let alone their employment preferences, but I would be shocked if more than 25% were targeting those cities at all with sincerity. Sure, WUSTL has more challenges than most schools when it comes to name recognition and perceived prestige, but if you are talking with a recruiter (let alone any warm body) at a mid/biglaw firm in the midwest and they haven't heard of WUSTL law?... That tells you more about that firm then it does our school.


Oh ok where else do they want to work?

It's not like WUSTL will be killing it in Chicago, CA, or NYC.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:46 am

Oban wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Honestly St. Louis is kind of a TTT city, but it isn't that bad. It's honestly a good place to go to school, enough going on not to go crazy. However I would not want to live her forever. That said, why come to a school that predominantly feeds the "midwaste" if you don't want to end up here.


One of the anti-wustlers

The school doesn't feed well into the midwest. That was one of the major points I wanted to make. I am actually from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. Check the amount of alumni in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan at midlaw/biglaw firms. There are almost no WUSTL alumni in those states. If you compare WUSTL in those states vs ND or UIUC the results are shocking....
When you have associates in the midwest asking me questions about my school and saying they never heard of it... you have a problem. I know this is an anectdote, but I think it shows that WUSTL has a huge problem placing people in the midwest.

I'd like to hear what other people think.


how the fuck can an associate at a respectable firm never have heard of wustl. I new what woostl was before I was even applying to law school because it is a nationally known school. I'd never want to work with people who hadn't heard of any the main/top schools, it shows a lack of exposure or knowledge.


Because they are a 5-7th year associate who went to a TTT school and does not care about the rankings. They have no fucking clue who is ranked at the top except the perennial powerhouses. They dont go out of their way to figure out which school is ranked number 19 or 17.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Oban wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Honestly St. Louis is kind of a TTT city, but it isn't that bad. It's honestly a good place to go to school, enough going on not to go crazy. However I would not want to live her forever. That said, why come to a school that predominantly feeds the "midwaste" if you don't want to end up here.


One of the anti-wustlers

The school doesn't feed well into the midwest. That was one of the major points I wanted to make. I am actually from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. Check the amount of alumni in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan at midlaw/biglaw firms. There are almost no WUSTL alumni in those states. If you compare WUSTL in those states vs ND or UIUC the results are shocking....
When you have associates in the midwest asking me questions about my school and saying they never heard of it... you have a problem. I know this is an anectdote, but I think it shows that WUSTL has a huge problem placing people in the midwest.

I'd like to hear what other people think.


how the fuck can an associate at a respectable firm never have heard of wustl. I new what woostl was before I was even applying to law school because it is a nationally known school. I'd never want to work with people who hadn't heard of any the main/top schools, it shows a lack of exposure or knowledge.


Blatant ND trolling. Here is an answer for you, because nobody wants to live in Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan. When asked where they would like to live, I serious doubt that most people would respond with "Detroit, Michigan" or "Cleveland, Ohio!" WUSTL does not have a huge problem with placing people in the Midwest; think two words "self selection."


WUSTL prides itself as a regional "midwestern" powerhouse. Well Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis are MAJOR cities in the midwest.

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stratocophic
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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby stratocophic » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:57 am

I think my favorite part was where the thread devolved back into being 90% unsupported assertions about WUSTL less than a page after a truce was called: would read again. 0Ls and 1Ls, there's a healthy proportion of people who aren't posting on this thread with Vault and NLJ jobs from San Fran to NY. Trying to find work in the midwest blows because most firms are homers and fill a fair portion of their class with the top 5-10% of the local TTT, which makes it hard for even those with good grades to compete.

And of course we aren't killing it on NY or wherever else you want to name, we're sending our class from NY to San Fran and we're a T25. We aren't going to have a large proportion of the class in any one city, so "killing it" isn't going to happen because we aren't all looking in the same place. NLJ #s will be around 20-25%, and our placement won't be concentrated in one city (plus maybe NY or something) like at Illinois or Emory. Can't explain it much more clearly. That said, we do seem to be lighting up Dallas pretty good, or maybe I just know an abnormal number of Texans here.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Oban » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Oban wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Honestly St. Louis is kind of a TTT city, but it isn't that bad. It's honestly a good place to go to school, enough going on not to go crazy. However I would not want to live her forever. That said, why come to a school that predominantly feeds the "midwaste" if you don't want to end up here.


One of the anti-wustlers

The school doesn't feed well into the midwest. That was one of the major points I wanted to make. I am actually from the midwest and want to stay in the midwest. Check the amount of alumni in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan at midlaw/biglaw firms. There are almost no WUSTL alumni in those states. If you compare WUSTL in those states vs ND or UIUC the results are shocking....
When you have associates in the midwest asking me questions about my school and saying they never heard of it... you have a problem. I know this is an anectdote, but I think it shows that WUSTL has a huge problem placing people in the midwest.

I'd like to hear what other people think.


how the fuck can an associate at a respectable firm never have heard of wustl. I new what woostl was before I was even applying to law school because it is a nationally known school. I'd never want to work with people who hadn't heard of any the main/top schools, it shows a lack of exposure or knowledge.


Because they are a 5-7th year associate who went to a TTT school and does not care about the rankings. They have no fucking clue who is ranked at the top except the perennial powerhouses. They dont go out of their way to figure out which school is ranked number 19 or 17.


Not knowing the rankings is one thing, no one out side of law school students and deans cares about rankings, but not having heard of one of the most prominent schools in the region is telling. WUSTL has a big reputation in medicine, and research. It's not like it's some obscure school like Harvey Mudd or Mcalester College. A supposedly "educated" person in Iowa, Illinois, Ohio or Michigan not knowing or having never heard of WUSTL is like an educated person in Georgia never having heard of Auburn, or someone in Tennessee never having heard of Emory.

But I digress, may it says more about our School's marketing than anything.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Blatant ND trolling. Here is an answer for you, because nobody wants to live in Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan. When asked where they would like to live, I serious doubt that most people would respond with "Detroit, Michigan" or "Cleveland, Ohio!" WUSTL does not have a huge problem with placing people in the Midwest; think two words "self selection."


WUSTL has epically shitty placement into Chicago even though a hell of a lot of WUSTLers want to go there. Can't imagine a lot of self-selection going on there.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:02 pm

I have experience with a certain market that some of you might be interested in hearing:

Iowa/Minny/Wisconsin/UIUC 2L here, SA offer from small Midwestern firm today. These are firms with 10-30 attorneys that are not in a primary or secondary legal market. A few of these did OCI here this year, and the good news is that these jobs exist and several are hiring. The other good news is that they are not what people here call "shitlaw." They pay respectably to start and have fast partnership tracks.

The bad news is that they aren't substantial in number; this firm for example is only hiring one SA. In some past years they have done OCI but not extended a single callback. Having gone through the process with two of these firms now, I can say that they tend to be very picky about fit. They don't need associates every year but just have a general idea they want to grow, so they also are in a position to no-offer SA's if they don't like them. My 1L firm had no-offered its last three SA's.

Put it all together and you realize that these firms may go through 60+ screeners for every one permanent employment offer. In a way, they are as selective as biglaw, but with unique criteria (e.g. fit, personality, and connections/commitment to live in that area are more important than grades, although you'll probably want top 1/3rd grades too).

I'm posting this to offer up the advice that, if you're interested in finding / contacting one of these firms, I would use the approach of finding the biggest firms in small cities. If a city has 20,000+ citizens and/or a good surrounding rural population, then there is a chance the pay at the biggest firm is solid by Midwest standards. Roughly $50k-$60k to start with fast partnership tracks, with full partners making $160k - $275k+. The hours tend to be great compared to biglaw too, so you might actually make nearly as much on a per hour basis as if you were making market in a place like Omaha plus have better partnership prospects to boot. If you aren't set on chasing the biggest paycheck and want a better lifestyle, I'm thinking these jobs are one of the best kept secrets in the legal community...if you have an interest in living in a smaller city.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't know anyone at WUSTL who was looking for the C-cities in Ohio, or Detroit/Indy/etc, has ties to that city, is above median, and was completely shut out. Granted, I hardly know most of the 2L class or last year's 3Ls, let alone their employment preferences, but I would be shocked if more than 25% were targeting those cities at all with sincerity. Sure, WUSTL has more challenges than most schools when it comes to name recognition and perceived prestige, but if you are talking with a recruiter (let alone any warm body) at a mid/biglaw firm in the midwest and they haven't heard of WUSTL law?... That tells you more about that firm then it does our school.


Oh ok where else do they want to work?

It's not like WUSTL will be killing it in Chicago, CA, or NYC.


Um, not in Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan?
Never said that WUSTL was killing it in Chicago, CA, or NYC. Reread the post more carefully.
While some will apply to biglaw firms in OH/IN/MI, it's mostly just because they are big firms and the students have no legit ties or desire to actually be there. Those who do have those characteristics and have fine grades place just fine in those states.

Most recent geographic placement data:
New England 3%
Mid-Atlantic 14%
East North Central 16% (with the vast majority of this number being IL)
West North Central 25%
South Atlantic 17%
East South Central 3%
West South Central 6%
Mountain 5%
Pacific 8%
Foreign 4%

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:29 pm

WUSTL does fairly well in KC and Indy. I got offers in both cities without significant ties or top grades, and I had callbacks at a few more. I know other people have also had success in those cities. As for the rest of the Midwest, I think I know 2 people at WUSTL from Detroit, and hardly anyone from Ohio. Not surprised at all that we don't place there considering almost no one from this school looks there or has ties there.

But seriously... why has this thread turned into the "Debate WUSTL" thread? It is taking away from the ability of other students to get valuable information about OCI and the firms they've interviewed with. This conversation is really not at all beneficial. There are UIUC, Minnesota, Iowa, and IU-B students ITT. Let's not just shove them out with this silly bickering.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:11 pm

Any latest on the Greensfelder corporate position?

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Um, not in Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan?
Never said that WUSTL was killing it in Chicago, CA, or NYC. Reread the post more carefully.


Can we please stop discussing whether a school with less than a 20% NLJ250 placement is killing it anywhere? Thanks.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any latest on the Greensfelder corporate position?



Was told they offered it, though it hadn't officially been accepted.

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Re: Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:For anyone with an offer from Dinsmore, how long did it take to come after the CB?




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