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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:33 pm
by Morgan12Oak
I think more often than not, sealocust is correct. Most physicians only get compensated for their time while some lawyers, specifically partners, get compensated for their time and others. I think the outliers and exceptions for physicians are those that start their own private practice at which point their income stream represents more of an equity partner at a law firm rather than a strict billable, non-scalable business model. Even the high 6 figure physicians at the hospital level are not the “highest” stakeholders of their entity since hospitals have boards and other shareholders that law partners do not have to compete with. So even if the argument is made that maybe highly skilled physicians do see a trickle up income stream from other junior physicians, they get less of the pie than the equity partners at large law firms.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:34 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
thesealocust wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:What I disagree with the locust about is regarding there being a cap on physician earning potential. I'm not sure why that would be.


I don't actually know that there is, so you may be right. It's just my impression from limited research is that there's tighter band of compensation for physicians even at the upper end of the spectrum.


Again, not common, but it all depends on how good the physician's business acumen is and how much hustle they have.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:46 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
Morgan12Oak wrote:I think more often than not, sealocust is correct. Most physicians only get compensated for their time while some lawyers, specifically partners, get compensated for their time and others. I think the outliers and exceptions for physicians are those that start their own private practice at which point their income stream represents more of an equity partner at a law firm rather than a strict billable, non-scalable business model. Even the high 6 figure physicians at the hospital level are not the “highest” stakeholders of their entity since hospitals have boards and other shareholders that law partners do not have to compete with. So even if the argument is made that maybe highly skilled physicians do see a trickle up income stream from other junior physicians, they get less of the pie than the equity partners at large law firms.


Wow the locust has an admirer! :D

FWIW. I think part of what you are saying is absolutely correct. When physicians set up a practice in the way you describe, that is one way in which they are able to make 7 figures.

But although the some V20 law firm partner may make more than some highly-earning physicians, does that mean that all physicians' salaries are capped or that all V20 law firm partners have higher earning potential than all physicians?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:54 pm
by thesealocust
I just spent 15 minutes searching, and the highest reported phsyician salary I could find was $800,000K for a cardiologist. Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but given the number of firms with (a) dozens of partners and (b) 'profits per partner' of over $1,000,000...

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:59 pm
by Morgan12Oak
You can never say absolutely that they are capped, but even with us if we are focusing on the upper-tiers and above median salaries of our respective fields, it’s prudent to exclude the top ½-1%. I mean, I’d imagine if you’re a physician to a Sheikh or to the Royal family, you’re going to be compensated more than most big law partners. I just think even with our inflated and reasonably high expectations, it’s probably a generally accurate statement.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:20 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
thesealocust wrote:I just spent 15 minutes searching, and the highest reported phsyician salary I could find was $800,000K for a cardiologist. Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but given the number of firms with (a) dozens of partners and (b) 'profits per partner' of over $1,000,000...


Based on my anecdotal experience, I don't believe the source you found is comprehensive on this matter. May I ask what it is?

Although I again stress it is uncommon for physicians to break into seven figures, it does happen enough that it is not an anomally or fluke. It depends mainly on business acumen and hustle.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:23 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
Morgan12Oak wrote:You can never say absolutely that they are capped, but even with us if we are focusing on the upper-tiers and above median salaries of our respective fields, it’s prudent to exclude the top ½-1%. I mean, I’d imagine if you’re a physician to a Sheikh or to the Royal family, you’re going to be compensated more than most big law partners. I just think even with our inflated and reasonably high expectations, it’s probably a generally accurate statement.


I feel like your post is missing a sentence. I agree that if you eliminate outliers like equity partners at Cravath and super-rich physicians like Dr. OZ, then when you compare your typical vault 100 partner to a typical high-earning physician they would probably stack-up pretty evenly. Is that what you meant?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:24 pm
by Anonymous User
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:You can never say absolutely that they are capped, but even with us if we are focusing on the upper-tiers and above median salaries of our respective fields, it’s prudent to exclude the top ½-1%. I mean, I’d imagine if you’re a physician to a Sheikh or to the Royal family, you’re going to be compensated more than most big law partners. I just think even with our inflated and reasonably high expectations, it’s probably a generally accurate statement.


I feel like your post is missing a sentence. I agree that if you eliminate outliers like equity partners at Cravath and super-rich physicians like Dr. OZ, then when you compare your typical vault 100 partner to a typical high-earning physician they would probably stack-up pretty evenly. Is that what you meant?


Why are equity partners at Cravath outliers? There are like 100 of them. And the equity partners at every other V15 or so firm, of which there are probably at least 1,000, are all making very similar money.

Edit: whoops, this is thesealocust, stupid anon button.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:29 pm
by Morgan12Oak
Not exactly. I don't really know what the comparison would be between V100 partners and physicians. I was saying that I think generally, a V20 partner makes more than your above-average physician. But, I think the comparison is probably useless since I don't really think there are vault rankings or any sort for physician prestige and income. In fact, it might not even be a comparison anyways, its more akin to comparing apples to oranges the more I think about it. A V20 partner might actually correspond to a super-highly trained specialist (and not an above-average physician) who does get paid equal to a V20 partner.

Basically, I wasn't really saying a whole lot because the comparison is really tough. I simply don't know enough about their salary percentiles. V20 partners represents such a small % of lawyers, I don't know how that small % would translate in the physician world.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:33 pm
by Renzo
thesealocust wrote:I just spent 15 minutes searching, and the highest reported phsyician salary I could find was $800,000K for a cardiologist. Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but given the number of firms with (a) dozens of partners and (b) 'profits per partner' of over $1,000,000...


You're not looking in the right places. Doctors that make a ton of money do it through schemes that would get a lawyer disbarred. Like owning hospitals, or chains of dialysis centers, or MRI scanners; so that when they refer someone for treatment, or admit someone to the hospital, they get paid for their professional services, and then get paid for the treatment they prescribe.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:33 pm
by thesealocust
Renzo wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I just spent 15 minutes searching, and the highest reported phsyician salary I could find was $800,000K for a cardiologist. Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but given the number of firms with (a) dozens of partners and (b) 'profits per partner' of over $1,000,000...


You're not looking in the right places. Doctors that make a ton of money do it through schemes that would get a lawyer disbarred. Like owning hospitals, or chains of dialysis centers, or MRI scanners; so that when they refer someone for treatment, or admit someone to the hospital, they get paid for their professional services, and then get paid for the treatment they prescribe.


Dude that sounds awesome. Time to quit the law.

...or open a legal outsourcing center?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:39 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
Anonymous User wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:You can never say absolutely that they are capped, but even with us if we are focusing on the upper-tiers and above median salaries of our respective fields, it’s prudent to exclude the top ½-1%. I mean, I’d imagine if you’re a physician to a Sheikh or to the Royal family, you’re going to be compensated more than most big law partners. I just think even with our inflated and reasonably high expectations, it’s probably a generally accurate statement.


I feel like your post is missing a sentence. I agree that if you eliminate outliers like equity partners at Cravath and super-rich physicians like Dr. OZ, then when you compare your typical vault 100 partner to a typical high-earning physician they would probably stack-up pretty evenly. Is that what you meant?


Why are equity partners at Cravath outliers? There are like 100 of them. And the equity partners at every other V15 or so firm, of which there are probably at least 1,000, are all making very similar money.


I'm a 0L, and I grabbed Cravath because it's one of the top-earning firms that I know of.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:40 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
Morgan12Oak wrote:Not exactly. I don't really know what the comparison would be between V100 partners and physicians. I was saying that I think generally, a V20 partner makes more than your above-average physician. But, I think the comparison is probably useless since I don't really think there are vault rankings or any sort for physician prestige and income. In fact, it might not even be a comparison anyways, its more akin to comparing apples to oranges the more I think about it. A V20 partner might actually correspond to a super-highly trained specialist (and not an above-average physician) who does get paid equal to a V20 partner.

Basically, I wasn't really saying a whole lot because the comparison is really tough. I simply don't know enough about their salary percentiles. V20 partners represents such a small % of lawyers, I don't know how that small % would translate in the physician world.


I'm not trying to pick at you but you've lost me. I'm talking about comparing high-earning physicians (which are uncommon) to equity partners.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:41 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
Renzo wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I just spent 15 minutes searching, and the highest reported phsyician salary I could find was $800,000K for a cardiologist. Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but given the number of firms with (a) dozens of partners and (b) 'profits per partner' of over $1,000,000...


You're not looking in the right places. Doctors that make a ton of money do it through schemes that would get a lawyer disbarred. Like owning hospitals, or chains of dialysis centers, or MRI scanners; so that when they refer someone for treatment, or admit someone to the hospital, they get paid for their professional services, and then get paid for the treatment they prescribe.


In practice, this doesn't end up being as shady as you make it sound.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:20 pm
by rayiner
Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:22 pm
by thesealocust
rayiner wrote:Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.


But think how much more satisfying it is to save a bank from failure by crushing those who would force its executives to behave reasonably than it is to assist humans live out their pathetic lives with less suffering?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:43 pm
by buckilaw
thesealocust wrote:
rayiner wrote:Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.


But think how much more satisfying it is to save a bank from failure by crushing those who would force its executives to behave reasonably than it is to assist humans live out their pathetic lives with less suffering?


+1

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:46 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
rayiner wrote:Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.


So you're saying that medicine is better than law because two physicians you know live in places you consider nice?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:58 pm
by rayiner
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
rayiner wrote:Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.


So you're saying that medicine is better than law because two physicians you know live in places you consider nice?


You were supposed to draw the generalization. Doctors can make a lot of money anywhere in the country. This can allow them to have an extremely nice lifestyle even with an ostensibly lower income. Big lawyers are pretty tied to the major financial centers which mean they spend a lot more money just to have similar standard of living.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:05 pm
by Rock-N-Roll
rayiner wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
rayiner wrote:Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.


So you're saying that medicine is better than law because two physicians you know live in places you consider nice?


You were supposed to draw the generalization. Doctors can make a lot of money anywhere in the country. This can allow them to have an extremely nice lifestyle even with an ostensibly lower income. Big lawyers are pretty tied to the major financial centers which mean they spend a lot more money just to have similar standard of living.


I guess you and I just aren't on the same wave-length then. I really love big law towns like NY, Chi, SF...

What I think is interesting about your point is that the opposite of it isn't true regarding physicians. That is, physicians who want to work in large cities tend to earn less in those cities than those willing to go out to more rural communities where there is a higher demand for physicians.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:28 pm
by rayiner
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
rayiner wrote:Dude, medicine > law. Even doctors who don't make seven figures can often make low-mid six figures in gorgeous places. My girlfriend's dad is a surgeon in Oregon and he lives by the ocean. My uncle is a physician who lives in a resort community on the coast of Australia. Meanwhile the biglaw partner making $1 million still probably lives in the fetid industrial pollution of the NY/NJ/CT area. And even though he makes more on paper, we probably can't afford to have a similarly nice house on the water.


So you're saying that medicine is better than law because two physicians you know live in places you consider nice?


You were supposed to draw the generalization. Doctors can make a lot of money anywhere in the country. This can allow them to have an extremely nice lifestyle even with an ostensibly lower income. Big lawyers are pretty tied to the major financial centers which mean they spend a lot more money just to have similar standard of living.


I guess you and I just aren't on the same wave-length then. I really love big law towns like NY, Chi, SF...

What I think is interesting about your point is that the opposite of it isn't true regarding physicians. That is, physicians who want to work in large cities tend to earn less in those cities than those willing to go out to more rural communities where there is a higher demand for physicians.


You like them now, but 15 years from now you'll still have 20 years of your career left to go but a couple of kids in tow. Will fighting through the filthy crowds of NYC still seem so great?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:33 pm
by thesealocust
rayiner wrote:You like them now, but 15 years from now you'll still have 20 years of your career left to go but a couple of kids in tow. Will fighting through the filthy crowds of NYC still seem so great?


lol @ kids. For pro bono, I'm going to not reproduce.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:35 pm
by Anonymous User
Why do some people not realize that sitting around in a McMansion in the suburbs is not for everyone?

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:37 pm
by vanwinkle
The truly important thing about the medicine-vs-law debate is that the high-six-figures jobs in medicine are permanent stable positions while many of the jobs in BigLaw are associate positions where you have to make partner in a certain time or you're gone. Lots of the people in law who "make six figures" don't make it for very long. A huge number of the people in medicine who get high-paying jobs are able to keep them long term.

Yeah, so, V20 partner can make 7 figures. But given the small odds of making V20 partner for even the random CCN 0L, I think you're much more likely to end up in a stable high-six-figure income if you go to med school than if you go to law school, no matter which law school you go to.

Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:38 pm
by Cavalier
Anonymous User wrote:Why do some people not realize that sitting around in a McMansion in the suburbs is not for everyone?

First of all, why is the anonymous? Second and more importantly, why do you hate America?