Big Law: Getting a job

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:37 pm

So top top 1/3+, especially top 1/4+ should be fine at V?

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Veyron
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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So top top 1/3+, especially top 1/4+ should be fine at V?


If you target New York.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:39 pm

Renzo wrote:
rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.



This exactly. Top third at CCN is a near-guraantee (although you could still fuck it up); beyond that, grades are one of many factors. For example, 100% of the people I personally know who struck out had median-ish grades, but no work experience; while people with interesting resumes all got jobs, regardless of grades.


This matches pretty closely with my experience. If you want a big firm job and don't have strong grades, God help you if you're 23.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:43 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Renzo wrote:
rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.



This exactly. Top third at CCN is a near-guraantee (although you could still fuck it up); beyond that, grades are one of many factors. For example, 100% of the people I personally know who struck out had median-ish grades, but no work experience; while people with interesting resumes all got jobs, regardless of grades.


This matches pretty closely with my experience. If you want a big firm job and don't have strong grades, God help you if you're 23.


Once again, define "strong grades."

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Renzo wrote:
rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.



This exactly. Top third at CCN is a near-guraantee (although you could still fuck it up); beyond that, grades are one of many factors. For example, 100% of the people I personally know who struck out had median-ish grades, but no work experience; while people with interesting resumes all got jobs, regardless of grades.


This matches pretty closely with my experience. If you want a big firm job and don't have strong grades, God help you if you're 23.


Once again, define "strong grades."


Top third is probably a good point to peg it, at least from T14ish schools. Much below that and you're just swimming around median and your grades aren't going to make you stand out even at the firms that hire from that region. Any above that and your grades tend to be an impressive line item on their own.

There's no hard and fast to it, and recruiters certainly don't draw distinctions with bright lines. Top quarter is definitely very good at a top school and median is definitely a sketchy place to be, so calling top third the inflection point is probably fair.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Renzo wrote:
rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.



This exactly. Top third at CCN is a near-guraantee (although you could still fuck it up); beyond that, grades are one of many factors. For example, 100% of the people I personally know who struck out had median-ish grades, but no work experience; while people with interesting resumes all got jobs, regardless of grades.


This matches pretty closely with my experience. If you want a big firm job and don't have strong grades, God help you if you're 23.


Once again, define "strong grades."


Top 1/4 at T14, top 1/3 at CCN. At that point your bidlist looks like:

Reach: DPW, Cleary, Simpson
Target: Skadden, Weil, Kirkland, Latham
Safety: Milbank, Dewey, Cahill, etc...

With each bid you apply for dozens to 100+ SA slots in one go, so even between 10 interviews or so you've got a great chance of getting an offer.

Meanwhile, compare someone at median to someone somewhat below median. They have the same bidlist:

Reach: Skadden, Weil, Kirkland, Latham
Target: Milbank, Dewey, Cahill, etc
Safety: Kramer, etc

Compare the top 1/3 and median bidlists in terms of size of summer classes in each range:

Reach: ~100 versus ~50
Target: ~50 versus ~30
Safety: ~30 versus ~15

So right off the bat, the median person is competing for fewer slots. Meanwhile, he's competing directly with the below median person, while the top 1/3 person isn't really competing with median people at DPW, Cleary, etc.
Last edited by rayiner on Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:51 pm

[/quote]This matches pretty closely with my experience. If you want a big firm job and don't have strong grades, God help you if you're 23.[/quote]

Once again, define "strong grades."[/quote]

Top third is probably a good point to peg it, at least from T14ish schools. Much below that and you're just swimming around median and your grades aren't going to make you stand out even at the firms that hire from that region. Any above that and your grades tend to be an impressive line item on their own.

There's no hard and fast to it, and recruiters certainly don't draw distinctions with bright lines. Top quarter is definitely very good at a top school and median is definitely a sketchy place to be, so calling top third the inflection point is probably fair.[/quote]

My grades have been only a perfunctory topic of conversation in every interview so far. It isn't like applying to law school where LSAT and GPA are it.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:02 pm

Awesome analysis Rayiner. I'd never though of it exactly like that before, but it's spot on.

Veyron wrote:My grades have been only a perfunctory topic of conversation in every interview so far. It isn't like applying to law school where LSAT and GPA are it.


I totally agree, and in the ideal interview grades don't come up at all. That being said, interviews create only rough impressions and at the end of the day somebody is lining candidates up by GPA and picking a small number for callbacks and offers. Grades are a silent factor in proper interviewing, but still a very important one.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:28 pm

thesealocust wrote:Awesome analysis Rayiner. I'd never though of it exactly like that before, but it's spot on.

Veyron wrote:My grades have been only a perfunctory topic of conversation in every interview so far. It isn't like applying to law school where LSAT and GPA are it.


I totally agree, and in the ideal interview grades don't come up at all. That being said, interviews create only rough impressions and at the end of the day somebody is lining candidates up by GPA and picking a small number for callbacks and offers. Grades are a silent factor in proper interviewing, but still a very important one.


At the point where you go into a list with everyone else, you've already fucked up.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:31 pm

Veyron wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Awesome analysis Rayiner. I'd never though of it exactly like that before, but it's spot on.

Veyron wrote:My grades have been only a perfunctory topic of conversation in every interview so far. It isn't like applying to law school where LSAT and GPA are it.


I totally agree, and in the ideal interview grades don't come up at all. That being said, interviews create only rough impressions and at the end of the day somebody is lining candidates up by GPA and picking a small number for callbacks and offers. Grades are a silent factor in proper interviewing, but still a very important one.


At the point where you go into a list with everyone else, you've already fucked up.


I'm not sure what you're driving at.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:34 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Veyron wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Awesome analysis Rayiner. I'd never though of it exactly like that before, but it's spot on.

Veyron wrote:My grades have been only a perfunctory topic of conversation in every interview so far. It isn't like applying to law school where LSAT and GPA are it.


I totally agree, and in the ideal interview grades don't come up at all. That being said, interviews create only rough impressions and at the end of the day somebody is lining candidates up by GPA and picking a small number for callbacks and offers. Grades are a silent factor in proper interviewing, but still a very important one.


At the point where you go into a list with everyone else, you've already fucked up.


I'm not sure what you're driving at.


? Being a normal applicant with no "in" is never ideal.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby lawgod » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:38 pm

Me me. Pick me. I want a job. And lots of money.

I saw a guy driving a porche 911 the other day, and I said, "what kind of idiot spends half a year's salary on a car?"

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:41 pm

lawgod wrote:Me me. Pick me. I want a job. And lots of money.

I saw a guy driving a porche 911 the other day, and I said, "what kind of idiot spends half a year's salary on a car?"


Maybe he makes more money than you think. Should have gone to med school bro.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:44 pm

Veyron wrote:
lawgod wrote:Me me. Pick me. I want a job. And lots of money.

I saw a guy driving a porche 911 the other day, and I said, "what kind of idiot spends half a year's salary on a car?"


Maybe he makes more money than you think. Should have gone to med school bro.


My woman's intuition is that salary upside is much large in law than in medicine. I know doctors make bank, but I was always under the impression it was rarely 7 figures as is fairly common in big law?

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:47 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Veyron wrote:
lawgod wrote:Me me. Pick me. I want a job. And lots of money.

I saw a guy driving a porche 911 the other day, and I said, "what kind of idiot spends half a year's salary on a car?"


Maybe he makes more money than you think. Should have gone to med school bro.


My woman's intuition is that salary upside is much large in law than in medicine. I know doctors make bank, but I was always under the impression it was rarely 7 figures as is fairly common in big law?


7 figures is fairly common in biglaw? What planet are you living on? Maybe for partners at V20s. Yes, at the extremes lawyers have much more upside (e.g. mass torts) but its a lot more common for a luxury car to be a small % of a doctor's salary.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:49 pm

rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.


Just curious. Where does the 70%stat originate from?
I've seen it on TLS before for C and N and am wondering if it comes from a legit source (like the schools themselves) or it is an estimate.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby lawgod » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:50 pm

Veyron wrote:
lawgod wrote:Me me. Pick me. I want a job. And lots of money.

I saw a guy driving a porche 911 the other day, and I said, "what kind of idiot spends half a year's salary on a car?"


Maybe he makes more money than you think. Should have gone to med school bro.


Heh. med school needs a normal UG. I don't do that stuff.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:52 pm

Veyron wrote:7 figures is fairly common in biglaw? What planet are you living on? Maybe for partners at V20s.


Yes, 7 figures is fairly common in biglaw. I live on earth. You're right, I'm talking about partners at V20s.

This conversation was never about average or modal salary expectations, it was about high end salaries in medicine and law. And my point, which you haven't actually refuted, was that lawyers have a higher upside potential than doctors.

Rock-N-Roll wrote:
rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.


Just curious. Where does the 70%stat originate from?
I've seen it on TLS before for C and N and am wondering if it comes from a legit source (like the schools themselves) or it is an estimate.


It was reported on TLS from several students who heard it directly from the schools.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:00 pm

thesealocust wrote:It was reported on TLS from several students who heard it directly from the schools.


Thank you for the above.

Also, physicians can make 7 figures but it is uncommon and probably is less common than a partner at a successful firm making that much.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:05 pm

What about someone who is median at a T14 and is pursuing Intellectual Property? Would that change the analysis at all? (Engineering undergrad, registered patent agent)

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:07 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Veyron wrote:7 figures is fairly common in biglaw? What planet are you living on? Maybe for partners at V20s.


Yes, 7 figures is fairly common in biglaw. I live on earth. You're right, I'm talking about partners at V20s.

This conversation was never about average or modal salary expectations, it was about high end salaries in medicine and law. And my point, which you haven't actually refuted, was that lawyers have a higher upside potential than doctors.

Rock-N-Roll wrote:
rayiner wrote:Stats say that last year 70% of students participating in EIW got something at both CLS and NYU. The thing is outside top 30% or so (say Stone at CLS), and above the very bottom of the class, grades don't matter much. Firms aren't making fine distinctions among top 40% and top 55%. So the 30% of people who don't get jobs aren't all bottom 30%. They're spread out through the class.


Just curious. Where does the 70%stat originate from?
I've seen it on TLS before for C and N and am wondering if it comes from a legit source (like the schools themselves) or it is an estimate.


It was reported on TLS from several students who heard it directly from the schools.


Why would I refute it, I already said I agree with you. However, partners at a V20 are an incredibly small % of all biglawyers. Thus, it is not "fairly common."

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:11 pm

Veyron wrote:Why would I refute it, I already said I agree with you. However, partners at a V20 are an incredibly small % of all biglawyers. Thus, it is not "fairly common."


You are profoundly unpleasant to interact with.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:15 pm

Veyron wrote:Why would I refute it, I already said I agree with you. However, partners at a V20 are an incredibly small % of all biglawyers. Thus, it is not "fairly common."


Not to be annoying, but it is fairly common among V20 partners, however many of those partners there may be. Though it is fairly uncommon across all physicians. It would be interesting to look at and compare the absolute numbers though.

What I disagree with the locust about is regarding there being a cap on physician earning potential. I'm not sure why that would be.

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby Veyron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:17 pm

Rock-N-Roll wrote:
Veyron wrote:Why would I refute it, I already said I agree with you. However, partners at a V20 are an incredibly small % of all biglawyers. Thus, it is not "fairly common."


Not to be annoying, but it is fairly common among V20 partners, however many of those partners there may be. Though it is fairly uncommon across all physicians. It would be interesting to look at and compare the absolute numbers though.

What I disagree with the locust about is regarding there being a cap on physician earning potential. I'm not sure why that would be.


Yes, but the question was whether it was fairly common among biglawyers, not V20 partners. Being a billionaire is fairly common among Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

You are profoundly unpleasant to interact with.


I should hope so!

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Re: Big Law: Getting a job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:19 pm

Rock-N-Roll wrote:What I disagree with the locust about is regarding there being a cap on physician earning potential. I'm not sure why that would be.


I don't actually know that there is, so you may be right. It's just my impression from limited research is that there's tighter band of compensation for physicians even at the upper end of the spectrum.




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