Contingency plans for 3Ls

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Danteshek
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:52 am

Your debt is pretty minimal. In your case, I do not really see the downside to an LLM in Tax. Estate planning can be your plan B if you can't get a transactional tax job (if that's what you really want). Don't be afraid to pursue your passion.

People on this forum roast me for it, but I am planning to apply to GT's program in Securities and Financial Regulation. I worked for a major asset manager before law school and interned at the SEC last summer. My life goal is basically to put bank CEOs in prison (half kidding). Tax is my plan B, which is why I am focusing on it in law school (in addition to financial regulation).

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A'nold
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Danteshek wrote:You can't be timid in this market. Make up your your mind and go for it. You can have a contingency plan, but your goals should be clear and your actions consistent with those goals. If you keep equivocating, you will find yourself unemployed.

I realized this around the middle of last year and really started focusing hard on prosecution. It doesn't mean that I won't be applying to other things as contingencies or maybe other just as good or better opportunities (who knows, ya know?), just that I am focusing my classes, internships, etc. around criminal law. I dabbled in a lot of different areas from 1L to halfway through 2L, but quickly saw the writing on the wall. I couldn't just treat prosecution and my other interests such as tort law or bankruptcy law as equal anymore and whichever one fell into my lap I'd be content with; I basically had to choose one and run with it to build the kind of resume that shows dedication and commitment to a certain field, prosecution, where you have to convince the interviewer that you are 100% on board and that I planned on being where I am.

Edit: Sorry if this was incoherent; my sleeping pills have probably kicked in by now. 8)

Yeah, I agree. This is something to think about. I've definitely padded my resume as much as possible to show my interest in tax, but in the back of my mind, there's this fear that I'll have an essentially useless resume if I can't get into that specific field. I know we're all facing this problem, though, of trying to show an interest and dedication towards the field you want to enter, but not wanting to lead yourself to the slaughter should you have trouble finding a job in that field. I just don't want to wind up one of those people on tax talent who's been jobless for two years and can't find a non-tax job b/c their LLM clearly shows they wanted to practice in the tax field.

I hear you. The cool thing for me is that I have a work history that shows an interest in tort law so I can use that as a backup plan and talk up my courtroom experience as a prosecution intern as being relevant to a litigation practice. BUT, I might not find any job, who knows. We are coming out into the market at a very volatile and strange time in U.S. history. Good luck and don't give up. :)

seatown12
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby seatown12 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
seatown12 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm going to do 3L OCI, though realistically, I probably won't get any offers since 3L OCI is so small. I'm planning on applying throughout the year when I see decent positions listed on symplicity. I'm also applying to consulting positions and the like through the undergrad career fair.

Just generally you need to be way more proactive than this. You can't wait for shit to fall into your lap via the school or symplicity. You need to start doing intensive research on your own to find out which employers in which fields interest you and start sending your materials to them.

That's why I was asking this board for help about how to be more proactive in finding and applying for jobs. I know that there's a lot more that I could be doing which is why I came to this site. How would you recommend going about finding reputable employers in fields that interest you? How do you sift through the garbage and the places that seem like decent firms? Also, how would you recommend keeping the search as broad as possible (for example, it might be hard to convince a firm specializing in family law that I genuinely would be interested in doing that type of work if my undergrad major is in finance and I have no work experience specifically relevant to family law). Any tips would be helpful!

When I came to law school I knew I wanted to do public defense so I basically just scoured the internet until I had at least some familiarity with most of the offices in the country, and went from there. There is a ton of information out there just waiting to be discovered. You should look into all the tax firms and other tax-related employers in areas you could feasibly end up living and try to learn everything you can about them. Once you have a pretty good idea what your options are you can start deciding what preferences you have in terms of work environment etc. At that point you can start putting together cover letters and sending your information to employers.

I don't think your search should be broad at this point, in fact you should do like A'nold talked about and start figuring out how to sell yourself as a specialist in your chosen field. Employers want to believe you are the best future tax lawyer in the class of 2012, not some kid who didn't know what he was getting into with law school and is now scrambling for whatever job he can get. Fortunately it seems like your past experience puts you in good position to sell yourself convincingly.

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A'nold
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:34 pm

I would just like to post an update that one of my mass mail firms (the head of the recruitment department) thanked me for my resume instead of telling me to suck it. In? :wink:

Danteshek
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:29 pm

A'nold wrote:I would just like to post an update that one of my mass mail firms (the head of the recruitment department) thanked me for my resume instead of telling me to suck it. In? :wink:


Are all the firms you are applying to in the Northwest?

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franklyscarlet
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby franklyscarlet » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:49 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:Rising 3l in top 20%, I'mlooking at getting into teaching high school. For about the same pay as law firm you can have more fun interacting with students all day abs the security is a lot better too. I currently know people teaching with just a bachelors so this could be a good way to go.


I'm a teacher. This is so inherently untrue. Sorry. PM if you'd like more details about teaching, but make no mistake that it is neither a fun job nor a secure one.

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A'nold
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:56 pm

Danteshek wrote:
A'nold wrote:I would just like to post an update that one of my mass mail firms (the head of the recruitment department) thanked me for my resume instead of telling me to suck it. In? :wink:


Are all the firms you are applying to in the Northwest?

Yep. Why, do you think I should apply elsewhere?

Danteshek
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:30 pm

No. I'm in a bit of a bind. My fiancée is in DC. I'm not sure whether it is worth it to broaden my search there beyond a few specific opportunities I am aware of. I'm not looking for work locally at all.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby boaltrising3l » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:02 pm

Yes, teaching is not secure, you only get lifetime security in California after two years, what an unstable profession.

Anonymous User
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:07 pm

franklyscarlet wrote:
boaltrising3l wrote:Rising 3l in top 20%, I'mlooking at getting into teaching high school. For about the same pay as law firm you can have more fun interacting with students all day abs the security is a lot better too. I currently know people teaching with just a bachelors so this could be a good way to go.


I'm a teacher. This is so inherently untrue. Sorry. PM if you'd like more details about teaching, but make no mistake that it is neither a fun job nor a secure one.

Yeah, I have a sibling who is a teacher and I know that neither of those things are true (my sibling has friends who got pink slips). I've also helped out inside the classroom before and I agree that teaching is really hard. I just assumed that this person was saying "fun" in the sense that it would provide them more fulfillment since they wouldn't just be in a cubicle all day but would actually have an impact of some sort (even a marginal amount) on kids' lives. If I decide to go the teaching route, I definitely am fully aware of what I would be getting into. That being said, I will definitely take you up on the PM offer if I decide to go that route. Thank you for the offer!

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franklyscarlet
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby franklyscarlet » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:12 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:Yes, teaching is not secure, you only get lifetime security in California after two years, what an unstable profession.


Perhaps California is more stable than the rest of the country. However, teaching jobs are becoming increasingly difficult to obtain and keep- all, and I mean all across the board, first year teachers in my district were cut due to budget this past year (extreme but by no means rare). Districts are facing budget crises and new policies that force them to make very tough decisions like that on a regular basis. Since seniority is often valued, new teachers are particularly vulnerable ("last in, first out"). However, older teachers are increasingly having to fight for their jobs, for better or worse, because of new evaluation metrics being instituted in order to assure teachers are following state and federal standards. Again, this is just my experience working in education and education policy- I have no intention of this becoming an internet fight.

schooner
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby schooner » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:12 pm

If you're looking at PI/nonprofits in DC, you should try to network as much as possible because recommendations, referrals, and word-of-mouth is how people find out about openings and get hired around here. Is there a professor w/ contacts in the non-legal world (e.g., clinical faculty) who can help you out? Can GW's career office help you out with this? (The reference to the OCI database kind of gave you away.) If not, doesn't hurt to look through the alumni database.

Anonymous User
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:13 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:Yes, teaching is not secure, you only get lifetime security in California after two years, what an unstable profession.

Uh, no. Not true at all. My sibling had a friend who was one of the last teachers hired into the district. When pink slips came, she was the first to go. She's basically stuck now as a long-term sub (the pay is significantly shittier than being a full-time teacher, and I remember my sibling saying that there were other downsides regarding how their retirement system works, though I can't provide details since I didn't ask). Teachers do get excellent retirement benefits and pretty good pay here in California (especially considering you can get the job with just a bachelor's even coming out of really marginal schools), but it's not set in stone that you'll be able to find a teaching job and it's not that secure. Their jobs rise and fall w/ the success of the state as a whole, and CA is obviously struggling right now.

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franklyscarlet
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby franklyscarlet » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
franklyscarlet wrote:
boaltrising3l wrote:Rising 3l in top 20%, I'mlooking at getting into teaching high school. For about the same pay as law firm you can have more fun interacting with students all day abs the security is a lot better too. I currently know people teaching with just a bachelors so this could be a good way to go.


I'm a teacher. This is so inherently untrue. Sorry. PM if you'd like more details about teaching, but make no mistake that it is neither a fun job nor a secure one.

Yeah, I have a sibling who is a teacher and I know that neither of those things are true (my sibling has friends who got pink slips). I've also helped out inside the classroom before and I agree that teaching is really hard. I just assumed that this person was saying "fun" in the sense that it would provide them more fulfillment since they wouldn't just be in a cubicle all day but would actually have an impact of some sort (even a marginal amount) on kids' lives. If I decide to go the teaching route, I definitely am fully aware of what I would be getting into. That being said, I will definitely take you up on the PM offer if I decide to go that route. Thank you for the offer!


No problem-- you definitely sound like you know what you're talking about. I have absolutely gotten something out of teaching, it just hasn't been money, fun, or security :lol: But it's not all storm clouds.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:16 pm

I am only going into 2L but if I was going into 3L with no offer in hand I would do the following: Take literally the easiest classes possible, pick 50 cities in the US I wouldn't mind living in, spend all the time saved with easy classes and not studying and apply to AT LEAST 25 positions per day the entire year.

I am as cynical as anyone on TLS, but I feel like if you send out 100 apps to each of 50 cities (Small firms and PI only obviously, you're not getting any mid/big law from 3L mass mailing) I simply do not see you not landing 1 single job. In the end, if you're at 5000 apps with 0 offers it's just not meant to be, go work as a bank teller.

Danteshek
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:08 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:I am only going into 2L but if I was going into 3L with no offer in hand I would do the following: Take literally the easiest classes possible, pick 50 cities in the US I wouldn't mind living in, spend all the time saved with easy classes and not studying and apply to AT LEAST 25 positions per day the entire year.


This is really dumb. Not everyone is 23 years old with no responsibilities or intellectual curiosity. Good luck being a lawyer.

Anonymous User
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Re: Contingency plans for 3Ls

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:35 am

BarbellDreams wrote:I am only going into 2L but if I was going into 3L with no offer in hand I would do the following: Take literally the easiest classes possible, pick 50 cities in the US I wouldn't mind living in, spend all the time saved with easy classes and not studying and apply to AT LEAST 25 positions per day the entire year.

I am as cynical as anyone on TLS, but I feel like if you send out 100 apps to each of 50 cities (Small firms and PI only obviously, you're not getting any mid/big law from 3L mass mailing) I simply do not see you not landing 1 single job. In the end, if you're at 5000 apps with 0 offers it's just not meant to be, go work as a bank teller.

I was wondering when someone would make some snarky jab at me. Can't say I'm surprised that it came from you.




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