Asians in Big Law

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:03 am

Re: East Asians and blondes. I think that is a separate issue and has more to do with the rumored size of their genitals.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby 20121109 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:28 am

Anon reminder.

The Anonymous feature should be used sparingly for sensitive information that could potentially out your true identity. The mod team will be inclined to reveal posters if they abuse it.

czelede
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby czelede » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:06 am

sundance95 wrote:
JSC4 wrote:As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?


I have to address this a little - if you look at the trend of immigration to the US from Asia, you will realize that until 1965 (Immigration Act) there was *no* immigration, period - recall that a number of them came over in the 19th century, but with the exclusion acts in 1882 (targeting China) and 1917 (targeting Asia) immigration pretty much entirely ceased. With respect to China in particular, a huge number of them came over after 1989 on what is colloquially referred to has "June 4th Visas" - censuses taken in 1980 and 1990 show that the number of Chinese-Americans doubled in size from 800,000 to 1.6 million.

So the answer to your question is actually probably yes. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think it was something like 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are those or of families who came to the US in the 70s or 80s.

This is important for two reasons. The first accounts for why you see so few Asian partners. In general, a lot of these immigrants (non refugee immigrants, at least) come over for educational purposes, which is why they are represented so disproportionately in science type fields. Those fields transcend language. Just as it would be difficult for a monolingual American to become a top scholar in Japan or Germany in a field where heavy writing and reading is required, Asian Americans that do have that language barrier are much stronger and more comfortable in less language intensive areas. So when you look at the "1st generation" of Asian-Americans (our parents), I'm willing to be the amount of their age sector represented in law is significantly less than when compared to children who grew up here. For the children who grew up here - largely children of the 80s - it remains to be seen what proportion will achieve partner. I'm not discounting the existence of a glass ceiling, but the nature of Asian-American immigration makes that trend difficult to observe at present.

The second is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it explains why there are so many overachieving Asians. A lot of times, the immigrants you look at are very highly educated and academically driven, and thus tend to raise their children in the same vein (no differently than highly educated and academically driven folks of any other race). The cultural differences definitely contribute, but I'm interested to see how the landscape of Asians in America changes with time (you know, as the slackers and stoners have slacker and stoner kids).

Anyways, tl;dr: it's not purely a physical/race thing.

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dailygrind
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby dailygrind » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:00 am

bleern031 wrote:OP here. Way to completely get off topic TLS. Though I must admit that I tried to fuel things here and there.
Nevertheless, although I am upset at some closed minded assumptions certain people are making, I'm happy to hear that there are those who evaluate people based on what is real- not just mere stereotypes.

It's easy to believe in stereotypes and not take the effort to actually know someone yourself. Unfortunately, it is not only detrimental to the person you are stereotyping but also to yourself, for you would be less of a lawyer than those who are able to analyze people on their own (and not take the "easy" way out.

It was cute, for the first couple threads, when people posted about the "Awkward Asian" theory. But really, post something of quality supported by facts.


Yeah, let's knock off the stereotypes, folks. We all know what they are. Coming on here and saying nothing but that you believe in them doesn't inform anyone of anything, and is kinda insulting. If you want to have a fact based discussion of why things are as they are, e.g. czelede's post, that's great, have at it. If you want to pop in and say that Asians are socially awkward and should probably stick to fields dominated by mathematics, please...do us a favor and don't.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby mebeSajid » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:19 am

czelede wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
JSC4 wrote:As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?


I have to address this a little - if you look at the trend of immigration to the US from Asia, you will realize that until 1965 (Immigration Act) there was *no* immigration, period - recall that a number of them came over in the 19th century, but with the exclusion acts in 1882 (targeting China) and 1917 (targeting Asia) immigration pretty much entirely ceased. With respect to China in particular, a huge number of them came over after 1989 on what is colloquially referred to has "June 4th Visas" - censuses taken in 1980 and 1990 show that the number of Chinese-Americans doubled in size from 800,000 to 1.6 million.

So the answer to your question is actually probably yes. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think it was something like 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are those or of families who came to the US in the 70s or 80s.

This is important for two reasons. The first accounts for why you see so few Asian partners. In general, a lot of these immigrants (non refugee immigrants, at least) come over for educational purposes, which is why they are represented so disproportionately in science type fields. Those fields transcend language. Just as it would be difficult for a monolingual American to become a top scholar in Japan or Germany in a field where heavy writing and reading is required, Asian Americans that do have that language barrier are much stronger and more comfortable in less language intensive areas. So when you look at the "1st generation" of Asian-Americans (our parents), I'm willing to be the amount of their age sector represented in law is significantly less than when compared to children who grew up here. For the children who grew up here - largely children of the 80s - it remains to be seen what proportion will achieve partner. I'm not discounting the existence of a glass ceiling, but the nature of Asian-American immigration makes that trend difficult to observe at present.

The second is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it explains why there are so many overachieving Asians. A lot of times, the immigrants you look at are very highly educated and academically driven, and thus tend to raise their children in the same vein (no differently than highly educated and academically driven folks of any other race). The cultural differences definitely contribute, but I'm interested to see how the landscape of Asians in America changes with time (you know, as the slackers and stoners have slacker and stoner kids).

Anyways, tl;dr: it's not purely a physical/race thing.


This is a great post. Being a 1st generation South Asian immigrant, I've noticed the same thing.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:31 am

Thanks folks for taking the high road with regard to these preconceptions. I want to suggest two things however.

1. I think this conversation of asian awkwardness is uniquely appropriate for this thread. The OP asked why there are "so few" asian lawyers in the large firms. From personal experiences, I don't think that is true uniformly. There are quite a few junior associates who are asian but the ranks thin out as you climb the seniority ladder. I suggest that one of the explanations for this phenomenon could be that asians are routinely passed over for higher responsibilities because of these often unspoken stereotypes. "Big trial coming up, we have to go with someone with pure court room swagger. Let's get that white southern bro!" Now, I don't want to take responsibility away from the asians to make themselves known and to get their names out but these perceptions will hurt their ability to grow their careers.

2. As a corollary, because I think these perceptions are often unspoken, I suggest we talk more about them instead of less. You can't fight an enemy that you can't see. As frustrating as the perceptions are to me personally, I think it is important to have this conversation about them. That being said, I do think that there is only a certain level of discussion that we can have before people start repeating themselves because let's face it, we don't change minds on these internet forums. We can only try to plant doubts.

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dailygrind
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby dailygrind » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:44 am

The stereotype is that we're socially awkward. To the extent that it exists in the minds of our peers, I doubt we're going to be changing minds except by interacting with people in the real world.

Master Tofu
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:51 am

dailygrind wrote:The stereotype is that we're socially awkward. To the extent that it exists in the minds of our peers, I doubt we're going to be changing minds except by interacting with people in the real world.



I agree. Hence my point about planting doubts. I think we can help people see holes in their logic but you are right - ultimately, we need to recast the Lincoln Lawyer with an asian fella.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:01 pm

rayiner wrote:I don't know what is the point of this thread. It was predicated on the idea that asians have a disadvantage in legal hiring. People put up stats showing asians are overrepresented by a factor of 2 among NLJ lawyers (10% of lawyers while only 5% of the population is asian).

/thread


unless Asians are overrepresented among law students by greater than a factor of 2...

I'd bet they are greater than 10% of the population of top schools...

according to LSAC profiles Asians comprise 12-13% of Stanford, 11-12% of Harvard and 12-13% of Yale, 11-12% of Chicago

4.8% of the US is Asian... according to wiki

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glitched
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby glitched » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:18 pm

czelede wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
JSC4 wrote:As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?


I have to address this a little - if you look at the trend of immigration to the US from Asia, you will realize that until 1965 (Immigration Act) there was *no* immigration, period - recall that a number of them came over in the 19th century, but with the exclusion acts in 1882 (targeting China) and 1917 (targeting Asia) immigration pretty much entirely ceased. With respect to China in particular, a huge number of them came over after 1989 on what is colloquially referred to has "June 4th Visas" - censuses taken in 1980 and 1990 show that the number of Chinese-Americans doubled in size from 800,000 to 1.6 million.

So the answer to your question is actually probably yes. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think it was something like 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are those or of families who came to the US in the 70s or 80s.

This is important for two reasons. The first accounts for why you see so few Asian partners. In general, a lot of these immigrants (non refugee immigrants, at least) come over for educational purposes, which is why they are represented so disproportionately in science type fields. Those fields transcend language. Just as it would be difficult for a monolingual American to become a top scholar in Japan or Germany in a field where heavy writing and reading is required, Asian Americans that do have that language barrier are much stronger and more comfortable in less language intensive areas. So when you look at the "1st generation" of Asian-Americans (our parents), I'm willing to be the amount of their age sector represented in law is significantly less than when compared to children who grew up here. For the children who grew up here - largely children of the 80s - it remains to be seen what proportion will achieve partner. I'm not discounting the existence of a glass ceiling, but the nature of Asian-American immigration makes that trend difficult to observe at present.

The second is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it explains why there are so many overachieving Asians. A lot of times, the immigrants you look at are very highly educated and academically driven, and thus tend to raise their children in the same vein (no differently than highly educated and academically driven folks of any other race). The cultural differences definitely contribute, but I'm interested to see how the landscape of Asians in America changes with time (you know, as the slackers and stoners have slacker and stoner kids).

Anyways, tl;dr: it's not purely a physical/race thing.


i just realized i read this entire thing bc of your tar. i never read anything this long on this forum. beautiful women.... what can i say.

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glitched
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby glitched » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:19 pm

Borhas wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't know what is the point of this thread. It was predicated on the idea that asians have a disadvantage in legal hiring. People put up stats showing asians are overrepresented by a factor of 2 among NLJ lawyers (10% of lawyers while only 5% of the population is asian).

/thread


unless Asians are overrepresented among law students by greater than a factor of 2...

I'd bet they are greater than 10% of the population of top schools...

according to LSAC profiles Asians comprise 12-13% of Stanford, 11-12% of Harvard and 12-13% of Yale, 11-12% of Chicago

4.8% of the US is Asian... according to wiki


i dont think he was asking %asians in ls:%asians overall population. i think he wanted to know % of asian biglaw lawyers: % asians in ls.

czelede
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby czelede » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:08 pm

glitched wrote:
czelede wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
JSC4 wrote:As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?


I have to address this a little - if you look at the trend of immigration to the US from Asia, you will realize that until 1965 (Immigration Act) there was *no* immigration, period - recall that a number of them came over in the 19th century, but with the exclusion acts in 1882 (targeting China) and 1917 (targeting Asia) immigration pretty much entirely ceased. With respect to China in particular, a huge number of them came over after 1989 on what is colloquially referred to has "June 4th Visas" - censuses taken in 1980 and 1990 show that the number of Chinese-Americans doubled in size from 800,000 to 1.6 million.

So the answer to your question is actually probably yes. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think it was something like 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are those or of families who came to the US in the 70s or 80s.

This is important for two reasons. The first accounts for why you see so few Asian partners. In general, a lot of these immigrants (non refugee immigrants, at least) come over for educational purposes, which is why they are represented so disproportionately in science type fields. Those fields transcend language. Just as it would be difficult for a monolingual American to become a top scholar in Japan or Germany in a field where heavy writing and reading is required, Asian Americans that do have that language barrier are much stronger and more comfortable in less language intensive areas. So when you look at the "1st generation" of Asian-Americans (our parents), I'm willing to be the amount of their age sector represented in law is significantly less than when compared to children who grew up here. For the children who grew up here - largely children of the 80s - it remains to be seen what proportion will achieve partner. I'm not discounting the existence of a glass ceiling, but the nature of Asian-American immigration makes that trend difficult to observe at present.

The second is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it explains why there are so many overachieving Asians. A lot of times, the immigrants you look at are very highly educated and academically driven, and thus tend to raise their children in the same vein (no differently than highly educated and academically driven folks of any other race). The cultural differences definitely contribute, but I'm interested to see how the landscape of Asians in America changes with time (you know, as the slackers and stoners have slacker and stoner kids).

Anyways, tl;dr: it's not purely a physical/race thing.


i just realized i read this entire thing bc of your tar. i never read anything this long on this forum. beautiful women.... what can i say.


Yes, this was the intention :)

Now how do I superimpose Mila's face onto mine in real life...

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby TaipeiMort » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:32 pm

I think one reason that contributes to asians being underrepresented in partnership ranksi is because many bail for pretty high salaries in foreign firms. At the Asian firm I worked at this summer, a lot of partners were asians that bailed on Biglaw after being sniped for great money.

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Borhas
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:42 pm

glitched wrote:
Borhas wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't know what is the point of this thread. It was predicated on the idea that asians have a disadvantage in legal hiring. People put up stats showing asians are overrepresented by a factor of 2 among NLJ lawyers (10% of lawyers while only 5% of the population is asian).

/thread


unless Asians are overrepresented among law students by greater than a factor of 2...

I'd bet they are greater than 10% of the population of top schools...

according to LSAC profiles Asians comprise 12-13% of Stanford, 11-12% of Harvard and 12-13% of Yale, 11-12% of Chicago

4.8% of the US is Asian... according to wiki


i dont think he was asking %asians in ls:%asians overall population. i think he wanted to know % of asian biglaw lawyers: % asians in ls.


so? If 10% of NLJ attorneys are Asian, and >10% of law students are Asian, then Asians are underrepresented in legal hiring, even if they are overrepresented w/ respect to the community at large.

That's the only point I'm making.

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glitched
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby glitched » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Borhas wrote:
glitched wrote:
Borhas wrote:
rayiner wrote:I don't know what is the point of this thread. It was predicated on the idea that asians have a disadvantage in legal hiring. People put up stats showing asians are overrepresented by a factor of 2 among NLJ lawyers (10% of lawyers while only 5% of the population is asian).

/thread


unless Asians are overrepresented among law students by greater than a factor of 2...

I'd bet they are greater than 10% of the population of top schools...

according to LSAC profiles Asians comprise 12-13% of Stanford, 11-12% of Harvard and 12-13% of Yale, 11-12% of Chicago

4.8% of the US is Asian... according to wiki


i dont think he was asking %asians in ls:%asians overall population. i think he wanted to know % of asian biglaw lawyers: % asians in ls.


so? If 10% of NLJ attorneys are Asian, and >10% of law students are Asian, then Asians are underrepresented in legal hiring, even if they are overrepresented w/ respect to the community at large.

That's the only point I'm making.


where did you get 10% of NLJ attorneys are asian? that's the number were looking for to settle this matter.

and i dont think ~10% to ~12% is considered underrepresented anyway. if it was ~5% to ~12% then thats the factor of 2 this first guy was asking for.

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ThreeYears
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby ThreeYears » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:15 pm

czelede wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
JSC4 wrote:As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?


I have to address this a little - if you look at the trend of immigration to the US from Asia, you will realize that until 1965 (Immigration Act) there was *no* immigration, period - recall that a number of them came over in the 19th century, but with the exclusion acts in 1882 (targeting China) and 1917 (targeting Asia) immigration pretty much entirely ceased. With respect to China in particular, a huge number of them came over after 1989 on what is colloquially referred to has "June 4th Visas" - censuses taken in 1980 and 1990 show that the number of Chinese-Americans doubled in size from 800,000 to 1.6 million.

So the answer to your question is actually probably yes. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think it was something like 2/3 of all Asian-Americans are those or of families who came to the US in the 70s or 80s.

This is important for two reasons. The first accounts for why you see so few Asian partners. In general, a lot of these immigrants (non refugee immigrants, at least) come over for educational purposes, which is why they are represented so disproportionately in science type fields. Those fields transcend language. Just as it would be difficult for a monolingual American to become a top scholar in Japan or Germany in a field where heavy writing and reading is required, Asian Americans that do have that language barrier are much stronger and more comfortable in less language intensive areas. So when you look at the "1st generation" of Asian-Americans (our parents), I'm willing to be the amount of their age sector represented in law is significantly less than when compared to children who grew up here. For the children who grew up here - largely children of the 80s - it remains to be seen what proportion will achieve partner. I'm not discounting the existence of a glass ceiling, but the nature of Asian-American immigration makes that trend difficult to observe at present.

The second is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it explains why there are so many overachieving Asians. A lot of times, the immigrants you look at are very highly educated and academically driven, and thus tend to raise their children in the same vein (no differently than highly educated and academically driven folks of any other race). The cultural differences definitely contribute, but I'm interested to see how the landscape of Asians in America changes with time (you know, as the slackers and stoners have slacker and stoner kids).

Anyways, tl;dr: it's not purely a physical/race thing.


Very well-said.

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Borhas
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:15 pm

glitched wrote:
where did you get 10% of NLJ attorneys are asian? that's the number were looking for to settle this matter.

and i dont think ~10% to ~12% is considered underrepresented anyway. if it was ~5% to ~12% then thats the factor of 2 this first guy was asking for.

the 10% number I got from Rayiner, I don't know where he got it from, but it seems about right...


here's an interesting pdf I found...
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... tc-qptRoqQ

supposedly minorities made up 13% of firms but consisted of 22% of layoffs.


bottom line? minority populations are likely to be discriminated against (omg! alert the internets!)


heres more... http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter ... 2434742491

The legal profession lags behind nearly every other white-collar profession when it comes to diversity, statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau show. Blacks, Asians and Hispanics made up 11.8 percent of all U.S. attorneys in 2007. By contrast, those groups represented 19.9 percent of dentists, 25.5 percent of accountants and auditors and 27.7 percent of physicians and surgeons, although Asians accounted for a disproportionately high percentage of the doctors and dentists.


Blacks, Asians and Hispanics made up 11.8 percent of all U.S. attorneys in 2007. By contrast, those groups represented 19.9 percent of dentists, 25.5 percent of accountants and auditors and 27.7 percent of physicians and surgeons, although Asians accounted for a disproportionately high percentage of the doctors and dentists.



As for 10% compared to 13%... don't think of it as a 3% difference, think of it as a 30% difference.

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rayiner
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby rayiner » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:34 pm

The 10% number comes from: http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... wyers.html

Moreover, according to the NALP numbers, even during the economic downturn, when minority lawyer figures declined from 19.67 percent in 2009 to 19.53 percent in 2010, the number of Asian American lawyers actually increased, from 9.28 percent to 9.39 percent.


Do we have real stats for %-age of asians in law school? Out of those, what %-age don't need H1-B sponsorship? A big chunk of asians at most law schools are international students. Getting a job as an international student is substantially harder, because of the H1-B visa issue.

motownsaint
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby motownsaint » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:38 pm

This thread isn't a discussion worth placing in Legal Employment. It's more akin to the fluff in the Lounge/Off-Topic/Social forum, or xoxohth.

My vote is for deletion/move.

bleern031
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:08 am

motownsaint wrote:This thread isn't a discussion worth placing in Legal Employment. It's more akin to the fluff in the Lounge/Off-Topic/Social forum, or xoxohth.

My vote is for deletion/move.


Well.... Sorry it didn't work out that way bro. By the way what's a "xoxohth"?

partypajamas
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby partypajamas » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:59 pm

There is a Asian in my class, US citizen but insists he is "chinese". We talk about IR politics and always says "we" when he talks about china....

just weird if you ask me

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:16 pm

partypajamas wrote:There is a Asian in my class, US citizen but insists he is "chinese". We talk about IR politics and always says "we" when he talks about china....

just weird if you ask me


citizenship is just a piece of paper but identity is another thing. He might have arrived at the US when he already has a strong identity. In that case, it is tough to change.
Imagine you moved to France at age 17. You got French citizenship somehow. But do you really feel French?

Shibal Procedure
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Shibal Procedure » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:18 pm

partypajamas wrote:There is a Asian in my class, US citizen but insists he is "chinese". We talk about IR politics and always says "we" when he talks about china....

just weird if you ask me


nice thread necro...

While many asian people are weird, so are many white people, etc. Aspies can be found anywhere you go. There are plenty of socially-aware asians.

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:19 pm

I'm South Asian and found my interview experiences in law school to be quite different than my white classmates. It's very difficult for me to culturally connect with a 60 year old white man. We have little in common. Many of the interviews were completely awkward because they would blurt stuff out like "I love chicken vindaloo." They would also harp on how great America is and how anyone can make it in this country, as if I was some foreigner.

It's a big reason why I went into patent prosecution. I share technical backgrounds and common engineering and industry experiences with the older lawyers. We can at least connect over that. Also, being South Asian, lots of inventors and industry business leaders are of my ethnicity, so I don't feel that I necessarily need to change myself too much and that the people who have been practicing for a long time need to change themselves a bit.




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