Asians in Big Law

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bartleby
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bartleby » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:36 am

i think it depends on location, too. being asian, i had an interesting experience growing up in a literally all-white (one black kid, one hispanic kid) neighborhood in north jersey and then moving to a city with a large asian populaton in houston.

i went to SF / palo alto recently and i honestly think there are more asians there than white people. i don't think i saw any black people in palo alto.

re: asians being awkward - i think it is true to a certain extent. asians who grow up in a place like houston seem to band together whereas asians who totally stand out in a society get picked on a lot.

it is interesting though - i was watching the lincoln lawyer yesterday and kept thinking to myself, no way an asian guy could pull this kind of shit off. it isn't so much an inferiority complex to be thinking about that but keeping it real.

asian assimilation is something that interests me and i think it is a work in progress as some guys like rich cho are paving the way. alright, /end ramble.

regarding: south asians - if you mean indians - i think indians are much more successful than other asians because they don't give a fuck about what others think.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Nom Sawyer » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:08 am

bartleby wrote:i think it depends on location, too. being asian, i had an interesting experience growing up in a literally all-white (one black kid, one hispanic kid) neighborhood in north jersey and then moving to a city with a large asian populaton in houston.

i went to SF / palo alto recently and i honestly think there are more asians there than white people. i don't think i saw any black people in palo alto.

re: asians being awkward - i think it is true to a certain extent. asians who grow up in a place like houston seem to band together whereas asians who totally stand out in a society get picked on a lot.

it is interesting though - i was watching the lincoln lawyer yesterday and kept thinking to myself, no way an asian guy could pull this kind of shit off. it isn't so much an inferiority complex to be thinking about that but keeping it real.

asian assimilation is something that interests me and i think it is a work in progress as some guys like rich cho are paving the way. alright, /end ramble.

regarding: south asians - if you mean indians - i think indians are much more successful than other asians because they don't give a fuck about what others think.


I grew up as a kid as like the only Asian in my classes until around middle school, but can't remember a single time I was picked on (for my race or otherwise) in that entire period. I pretty much just had a normal childhood that wasn't any different from my non-Asian classmates/ friends as far as I could tell. Then the Asian population exploded in my area, but the "banding together" as described only happened to some individuals and not others... In the end, I really think that "awkwardness" and experiences are just really dependent on the specific person and their experiences/ circumstances.

Generalizations themselves are true to a certain extent of course, but I believe they arise from two main areas. First they usually more reflect certain cultural differences that, when amplified or compared as a whole, cause such stereotypes to arise. For example, there are loud, boisterous Asian tourists just as there are loud boisterous American ones... but the fact that such actions are rarer in Asian societies (like greater emphasis on saving face in some Asian countries) and generally less socially accepted gives rise to the different preconceptions.

However, many other generalizations are more due to demographics/ immigrant experiences/ etc. The fact that Asian minority immigrants, many who come from more educated backgrounds (the method used to immigrate to the US in the first place) but with greater language barriers clearly will create different social trends as compared to minorities that have been present in the US for a much longer period or come from different backgrounds.

bartleby
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bartleby » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:38 am

not picked on at all? i just find that hard to believe - and no, i'm not taking a defeatist tone. everyone gets picked on in middle school - not just asians. i agree that it really comes down to the individual.

Master Tofu
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:20 am

bartleby wrote:i think it depends on location, too. being asian, i had an interesting experience growing up in a literally all-white (one black kid, one hispanic kid) neighborhood in north jersey and then moving to a city with a large asian populaton in houston.

i went to SF / palo alto recently and i honestly think there are more asians there than white people. i don't think i saw any black people in palo alto.

re: asians being awkward - i think it is true to a certain extent. asians who grow up in a place like houston seem to band together whereas asians who totally stand out in a society get picked on a lot.

it is interesting though - i was watching the lincoln lawyer yesterday and kept thinking to myself, no way an asian guy could pull this kind of shit off. it isn't so much an inferiority complex to be thinking about that but keeping it real.

asian assimilation is something that interests me and i think it is a work in progress as some guys like rich cho are paving the way. alright, /end ramble.

regarding: south asians - if you mean indians - i think indians are much more successful than other asians because they don't give a fuck about what others think.



I think it is dangerous for "asians" to presume they are an authority on all things "asian". When you make a comment like the bolded, is it because you've seen asian trial lawyers in action and they simply don't impress you?

Have you seen Morgan Chu in action?

http://www.irell.com/professionals-22.html

What about Bill Lee?

http://www.wilmerhale.com/william_lee/

Your ignorance is staggering. Please think before you speak.

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20121109
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby 20121109 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:13 am

theturkeyisfat wrote:
JSC4 wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
JSC4 wrote:As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?

No, but they are obviously under the heavy influence of there older relatives. When a lot of these families moved over to America from wherever they came from, they aren't going to completely leave everyone and everything behind. More often then not, you see grandparents or uncles or anybody coming along that are still under the influence of their respective cultures


JSC - Despite their supposed lack of an "extensive understanding" of the English language, I'm pretty sure most Asian lawyers know the difference between "there" and "their."

I don't usually call out grammatical mistakes, but this dude was asking for it.


lulz. I agree. I'm pretty sure they also know the difference between "then" and "than" too.

Sorry, this whole thread just makes me :shock: :arrow: :|

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rayiner
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby rayiner » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:00 pm

Trequartista wrote:Are South Asians included in the discussion in this thread?


While south asians have as much trouble as east asians going after blondes, I think all the south asians representing in executive positions in finance offsets that for the purposes of ITT.

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rayiner
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby rayiner » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:03 pm

Master Tofu wrote:
bartleby wrote:i think it depends on location, too. being asian, i had an interesting experience growing up in a literally all-white (one black kid, one hispanic kid) neighborhood in north jersey and then moving to a city with a large asian populaton in houston.

i went to SF / palo alto recently and i honestly think there are more asians there than white people. i don't think i saw any black people in palo alto.

re: asians being awkward - i think it is true to a certain extent. asians who grow up in a place like houston seem to band together whereas asians who totally stand out in a society get picked on a lot.

it is interesting though - i was watching the lincoln lawyer yesterday and kept thinking to myself, no way an asian guy could pull this kind of shit off. it isn't so much an inferiority complex to be thinking about that but keeping it real.

asian assimilation is something that interests me and i think it is a work in progress as some guys like rich cho are paving the way. alright, /end ramble.

regarding: south asians - if you mean indians - i think indians are much more successful than other asians because they don't give a fuck about what others think.



I think it is dangerous for "asians" to presume they are an authority on all things "asian". When you make a comment like the bolded, is it because you've seen asian trial lawyers in action and they simply don't impress you?

Have you seen Morgan Chu in action?

http://www.irell.com/professionals-22.html

What about Bill Lee?

http://www.wilmerhale.com/william_lee/

Your ignorance is staggering. Please think before you speak.


Throw in Neal Katyal.

That said, those guys do what they do by being wicked smart and having a mastry of the case. Not pure courtroom swagger.

That said, while I couldn't see an asian filling in for Matthew McConaughey in Lincoln Lawyer, I could totally see one filling in for Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:10 pm

rayiner wrote:
Trequartista wrote:Are South Asians included in the discussion in this thread?


While south asians have as much trouble as east asians going after blondes, I think all the south asians representing in executive positions in finance offsets that for the purposes of ITT.


Just met an AUSA here. He is a Korean-American, married to a beautiful blonde. He isn't the type that can just go and pick up women in a bar. But after talking to him a few times, he is really a great guy and I can't think of a reason why any educated woman (including those who just happen to be of a different race) wouldn't wanna be with him.

bartleby
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bartleby » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:03 pm

Master Tofu wrote:
bartleby wrote:i think it depends on location, too. being asian, i had an interesting experience growing up in a literally all-white (one black kid, one hispanic kid) neighborhood in north jersey and then moving to a city with a large asian populaton in houston.

i went to SF / palo alto recently and i honestly think there are more asians there than white people. i don't think i saw any black people in palo alto.

re: asians being awkward - i think it is true to a certain extent. asians who grow up in a place like houston seem to band together whereas asians who totally stand out in a society get picked on a lot.

it is interesting though - i was watching the lincoln lawyer yesterday and kept thinking to myself, no way an asian guy could pull this kind of shit off. it isn't so much an inferiority complex to be thinking about that but keeping it real.

asian assimilation is something that interests me and i think it is a work in progress as some guys like rich cho are paving the way. alright, /end ramble.

regarding: south asians - if you mean indians - i think indians are much more successful than other asians because they don't give a fuck about what others think.



I think it is dangerous for "asians" to presume they are an authority on all things "asian". When you make a comment like the bolded, is it because you've seen asian trial lawyers in action and they simply don't impress you?

Have you seen Morgan Chu in action?

http://www.irell.com/professionals-22.html

What about Bill Lee?

http://www.wilmerhale.com/william_lee/

Your ignorance is staggering. Please think before you speak.


I was talking about a certain movie, where a white guy uses substantial Southern-style charisma to charm the pants off of everyone. No, I haven't seen or heard of Morgan Chu or Bill Lee - nor do I think I'm an authority on all things Asian.
I don't understand the hostility, my friend.

Master Tofu
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:28 pm

To be honest, I have lived in a lot of countries. Asian-Americans as a minority by far have the most apologetic people among them. It is always something wrong with themselves. Bigots say Asians are ugly ---- "are we too short?" Bigots think Asians are hard to communicate ---- "do we speak horrible english?" Even praises like Asians do well academically --- "are we too nerdy?" The inferiority complex is just astonishing.
quote]

bartleby wrote:it is interesting though - i was watching the lincoln lawyer yesterday and kept thinking to myself, no way an asian guy could pull this kind of shit off. it isn't so much an inferiority complex to be thinking about that but keeping it real.


No hostility, just frustration. Two points.

1. Read in context, your post suggests that the reason you don't think an asian lawyer could pull off the Lincoln Lawyer is not because of a complex rather it is because asian lawyers are simply inferior trial lawyers.

2. I want to challenge your assumption that asian lawyers couldn't pull off the Lincoln Lawyer. Are there simply no charming asians in the South? Maybe a better question for you is are asians capable of charm? Why is there this belief by albeit well-intentioned individuals that asians are somehow all academic, rigid and incapable of relating to people?

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:41 pm

bleern031 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Until you show us that the hiring is disproportional to the applicants and their class standing/school, there is no mystery to solve.


I'm not asking to solve any mystery. Simply stating that in general, many rich white clients would prefer a lawyer who can speak english than engrish (despite that their work quality and their knowledge of english will be the same).



I am married and my husband is Asian. I can say for a fact that two of the about 10 interviews or so that I had last year, I got because the person assumed I was Asian from my last name. I know because the first of them was unable to hide his disappointment when he say that I was as white as they come....maybe this can shoot some holes in your theory, maybe not.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:53 pm

rayiner wrote:
Master Tofu wrote:Have you seen Morgan Chu in action?

http://www.irell.com/professionals-22.html

What about Bill Lee?

http://www.wilmerhale.com/william_lee/

Your ignorance is staggering. Please think before you speak.


Throw in Neal Katyal.

That said, those guys do what they do by being wicked smart and having a mastry of the case. Not pure courtroom swagger.

That said, while I couldn't see an asian filling in for Matthew McConaughey in Lincoln Lawyer, I could totally see one filling in for Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men.


I have seen Morgan Chu in action. Of course being wicked smart contributes to his success, but I can also tell you he has a LOT of "pure courtroom swagger." There are a lot of wicked smart people at Irell. Yet anytime a major case goes to trial, it's Morgan leading the charge--even though he has less mastery of the case than partners who have beeing working on it from day one. There's a good reason for that.

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bk1
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:00 pm

what is this I don't even

bartleby
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bartleby » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:03 pm

Master Tofu - have you seen the Lincoln Lawyer??? The guy sits in the back seat of his car and is driven around in a Lincoln by a black guy. He is chummy with an all-white motorcycle gang.

I don't know what part of the country you're from - maybe the same place where the guy was never made fun of at all through middle school - but I said I personally can't see Asians fitting that bill (with Rich Cho being the exception).

I understand your frustration though and see where you're coming from.

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rayiner
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby rayiner » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:29 pm

Master Tofu wrote:1. Read in context, your post suggests that the reason you don't think an asian lawyer could pull off the Lincoln Lawyer is not because of a complex rather it is because asian lawyers are simply inferior trial lawyers.

2. I want to challenge your assumption that asian lawyers couldn't pull off the Lincoln Lawyer. Are there simply no charming asians in the South? Maybe a better question for you is are asians capable of charm? Why is there this belief by albeit well-intentioned individuals that asians are somehow all academic, rigid and incapable of relating to people?


I've lived in the south for a long time, and I've never met an asian who can pull off the Matthew Mcconaughey shtick. I can't even picture an asian with the requisite amount of white broishness to pull it off.

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bk1
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:45 pm

rayiner wrote:
Master Tofu wrote:1. Read in context, your post suggests that the reason you don't think an asian lawyer could pull off the Lincoln Lawyer is not because of a complex rather it is because asian lawyers are simply inferior trial lawyers.

2. I want to challenge your assumption that asian lawyers couldn't pull off the Lincoln Lawyer. Are there simply no charming asians in the South? Maybe a better question for you is are asians capable of charm? Why is there this belief by albeit well-intentioned individuals that asians are somehow all academic, rigid and incapable of relating to people?


I've lived in the south for a long time, and I've never met an asian who can pull off the Matthew Mcconaughey shtick. I can't even picture an asian with the requisite amount of white broishness to pull it off.


Image

Master Tofu
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:12 pm

All: I won't re-visit the issues. Note that these are your preconceptions of how an entire group of people would behave based on their ethnicity and your limited life experiences dealing with people of that ethnicity. Some people might consider these types of preconceptions to be a bad thing.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:26 pm

f0bolous wrote:those aren't the sites, i just mentioned google because i know plenty of academic studies have been done on this subject. but to answer your question, no, i don't think asians are disproportionately awkward because of studies i've read, but based on first hand experience. i've noticed, as have most people, that there are more socially awkward asians as a percentage than other groups. a lot of this has to do with the cultural upbringing. secondly, how is this making a "broad and unsubstantiated" stereotype? op made a claim about there being a disproportionate number of asians in firms. i offered this as a plausible explanation.


usually i would finish reading a thread first, but i cant contain myself :P firsthand experience? lol sry. maybe in wherever you grew up, i dont know. ive known a lot of asians growing up; in fact, id say most of my friends growing up were asian. we're not particularly socially awkward, at least not more than the general population.

i dont think this was a localized issue either; family and family friends i know across the country in NY and LA, etc. are not socially awkward at all either. going to law school in the NE, with a decently diverse class, I have yet to meet a single socially awkward asian (though i have met a few socially awkward individuals in law school). so statements like "i've noticed, as have most people" only contribute to that stereotype and the flipside of the model minority. you should stick to things like, "people i knew growing up were xxx, dont know if this holds true overall, but it may be a plausible explanation."

see look, i'll even demonstrate. just in my limited experience, asian americans are NOT socially awkward, but thats just based on the hundreds of asians i know.

of course, this whole thing is premised on the notion that you're lumping international asian students and asian americans together, or else see the comment by the earlier poster about international students obviously having social 'awkward' moments due to cultural/language barriers.

like here, your later comment is a step back from your original position, but a much more palpable one.

f0bolous wrote:just a casual observation about those that look like me and how they have difficulty fitting in. i don't disagree that the awkwardness is usually more prevalent among FOBs and first generation immigrants, although many second-generation ones (usually those raised around major Asian epicenters–LA, NYC, SF, etc) also have some of these social limitations. again, i'm stressing that it's the culture, and that they're only socially awkward in a more american, non-asian setting.


as a separate issue unrelated to fobulous, i wont even comment on the Lincoln Lawyer discussion that popped up later in the thread lol.
Last edited by DoubleChecks on Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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bk1
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:30 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
f0bolous wrote:those aren't the sites, i just mentioned google because i know plenty of academic studies have been done on this subject. but to answer your question, no, i don't think asians are disproportionately awkward because of studies i've read, but based on first hand experience. i've noticed, as have most people, that there are more socially awkward asians as a percentage than other groups. a lot of this has to do with the cultural upbringing. secondly, how is this making a "broad and unsubstantiated" stereotype? op made a claim about there being a disproportionate number of asians in firms. i offered this as a plausible explanation.


usually i would finish reading a thread first, but i cant contain myself :P firsthand experience? lol sry. maybe in wherever you grew up, i dont know. ive known a lot of asians growing up; in fact, id say most of my friends growing up were asian. we're not particularly socially awkward, at least not more than the general population.

i dont think this was a localized issue either; family and family friends i know across the country in NY and LA, etc. are not socially awkward at all either. going to law school in the NE, with a decently diverse class, I have yet to meet a single socially awkward asian (though i have met a few socially awkward individuals in law school). so statements like "i've noticed, as have most people" only contribute to that stereotype and the flipside of the model minority. you should stick to things like, "people i knew growing up were xxx, dont know if this holds true overall, but it may be a plausible explanation."

see look, i'll even demonstrate. just in my limited experience, asian americans are NOT socially awkward, but thats just based on the hundreds of asians i know.

(btw, this whole thing is premised on the notion that you're lumping international asian students and asian americans together, or else see the comment by the earlier poster about international students obviously having social 'awkward' moments due to cultural/language barriers).


Obviously not having the same cultural norms as white people = socially awkward. Duh.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby elmagic » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:39 pm

As a neutral observer, I think Asians is an overstatement, because Asian girls for the most part are pretty well adjusted and can hold decent conversations. The dudes are the ones that are usually socially awkward, don't know why.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:19 pm

I'm Asian, and I'm an Biglaw associate. In a few weeks, I'll start to interview the summer associate hopefuls (I assume most of you are in law school). And I have to say... I hope y'all don't really believe Asians are all socially awkward. Because if you walk into my office with that assumption and treat me differently than my white colleagues, I will not be impressed.

Talk all you want about stereotypes and personal experiences, but when you are interviewing for a job please do not make any assumptions about the interviewer. In fact, one of the most dangerous things you can do as a lawyer is to base your work or your statements on unfounded assumptions.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm Asian, and I'm an Biglaw associate. In a few weeks, I'll start to interview the summer associate hopefuls (I assume most of you are in law school). And I have to say... I hope y'all don't really believe Asians are all socially awkward. Because if you walk into my office with that assumption and treat me differently than my white colleagues, I will not be impressed.

Talk all you want about stereotypes and personal experiences, but when you are interviewing for a job please do not make any assumptions about the interviewer. In fact, one of the most dangerous things you can do as a lawyer is to base your work or your statements on unfounded assumptions.


or make the same assumption about Asian-American co-workers and treat them with disrespect (like one member above who joked about his/her Asian co-workers behind their backs). The consequence might not just be "not impressed". Prejuding someone is a quick way to make enemies.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:47 am

OP here. Way to completely get off topic TLS. Though I must admit that I tried to fuel things here and there.
Nevertheless, although I am upset at some closed minded assumptions certain people are making, I'm happy to hear that there are those who evaluate people based on what is real- not just mere stereotypes.

It's easy to believe in stereotypes and not take the effort to actually know someone yourself. Unfortunately, it is not only detrimental to the person you are stereotyping but also to yourself, for you would be less of a lawyer than those who are able to analyze people on their own (and not take the "easy" way out.

It was cute, for the first couple threads, when people posted about the "Awkward Asian" theory. But really, post something of quality supported by facts.

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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:13 am

bleern031 wrote:OP here. Way to completely get off topic TLS. Though I must admit that I tried to fuel things here and there.
Nevertheless, although I am upset at some closed minded assumptions certain people are making, I'm happy to hear that there are those who evaluate people based on what is real- not just mere stereotypes.

It's easy to believe in stereotypes and not take the effort to actually know someone yourself. Unfortunately, it is not only detrimental to the person you are stereotyping but also to yourself, for you would be less of a lawyer than those who are able to analyze people on their own (and not take the "easy" way out.

It was cute, for the first couple threads, when people posted about the "Awkward Asian" theory. But really, post something of quality supported by facts.


I think it's pretty funny that you're criticizing TLS for being off topic. You started this thread... :roll:

bleern031
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
bleern031 wrote:OP here. Way to completely get off topic TLS. Though I must admit that I tried to fuel things here and there.
Nevertheless, although I am upset at some closed minded assumptions certain people are making, I'm happy to hear that there are those who evaluate people based on what is real- not just mere stereotypes.

It's easy to believe in stereotypes and not take the effort to actually know someone yourself. Unfortunately, it is not only detrimental to the person you are stereotyping but also to yourself, for you would be less of a lawyer than those who are able to analyze people on their own (and not take the "easy" way out.

It was cute, for the first couple threads, when people posted about the "Awkward Asian" theory. But really, post something of quality supported by facts.


I think it's pretty funny that you're criticizing TLS for being off topic. You started this thread... :roll:


It's hilarious because the threads initial content somehow encourages others to go off topic, right?




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