Asians in Big Law

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bleern031
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Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:29 pm

Is rather dismal to none.
According to NALP, a random law firm of roughly 500, roughly 2% are Asian.
Hypothetically, if law grads of the same caliber, but of different race (Asian V. Caucasian) obtain interviews, would the Caucasian applicant obtain a leg up?

Legal employers hire candidates based on the benefit they can bring to the firm and its clients.
However, one may argue that because clients prefer working with Caucasian lawyers over Asian one (and thus the benefit brought by a white lawyer is greater for the client), job prospects for Asians are not too great.

Is it perhaps this, or the fact that most law grads who break top 10% are white?

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:31 pm

Until you show us that the hiring is disproportional to the applicants and their class standing/school, there is no mystery to solve.

InLikeFlint
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby InLikeFlint » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:32 pm

White students probably have a significant advantage.

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rayiner
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby rayiner » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:36 pm

There are way more asians at my SA firm than in the population are large. According to the available AmLaw stats, that's true at nearly all AmLaw 100.

bleern031
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Until you show us that the hiring is disproportional to the applicants and their class standing/school, there is no mystery to solve.


I'm not asking to solve any mystery. Simply stating that in general, many rich white clients would prefer a lawyer who can speak english than engrish (despite that their work quality and their knowledge of english will be the same).

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:40 pm

bleern031 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Until you show us that the hiring is disproportional to the applicants and their class standing/school, there is no mystery to solve.


I'm not asking to solve any mystery. Simply stating that in general, many rich white clients would prefer a lawyer who can speak english than engrish (despite that their work quality and their knowledge of english will be the same).


What makes you say that?

bleern031
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:41 pm

rayiner wrote:There are way more asians at my SA firm than in the population are large. According to the available AmLaw stats, that's true at nearly all AmLaw 100.


SA does not equal full time employment. SA is a bone you throw to the school/gov't records for diversity.

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rayiner
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby rayiner » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:43 pm

bleern031 wrote:
rayiner wrote:There are way more asians at my SA firm than in the population are large. According to the available AmLaw stats, that's true at nearly all AmLaw 100.


SA does not equal full time employment. SA is a bone you throw to the school/gov't records for diversity.


First, it effectively does at most firms where 90% of people receive offers.

Second, I was talking about the firm, not the summer class itself.

goodolgil
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby goodolgil » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:46 pm

Lots of Asian associates, they just don't make partner.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:47 pm

bleern031 wrote:
rayiner wrote:There are way more asians at my SA firm than in the population are large. According to the available AmLaw stats, that's true at nearly all AmLaw 100.


SA does not equal full time employment. SA is a bone you throw to the school/gov't records for diversity.


LOL. Third post and you say this??

A Purple Cow
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby A Purple Cow » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:53 pm

Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.

de5igual
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby de5igual » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:58 pm

A Purple Cow wrote:Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.


this has been my observation as well. it's unfortunate that asians are disproportionately socially awkward. i blame bad (but traditional) parenting.

bleern031
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby bleern031 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:01 pm

f0bolous wrote:
A Purple Cow wrote:Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.


this has been my observation as well. it's unfortunate that asians are disproportionately socially awkward. i blame bad (but traditional) parenting.


And it's well taken into consideration. Frankly I don't necessarily disagree either. But in a hiring perspective, wouldn't you rather want a white lawyer to work with you ?
Feel free to anon reply anyone reading this.

goodolgil
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby goodolgil » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:02 pm

http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-am ... ndex4.html

This was a pretty good recent article on the subject. A section of the article discusses Asian lawyers specifically IIRC.

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Grizz
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Grizz » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:06 pm

bleern031 wrote:
And it's well taken into consideration. Frankly I don't necessarily disagree either. But in a hiring perspective, wouldn't you rather want a white lawyer to work with you ?
Feel free to anon reply anyone reading this.

u mad because Asians get better grades?

de5igual
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby de5igual » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:08 pm

bleern031 wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
A Purple Cow wrote:Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.


this has been my observation as well. it's unfortunate that asians are disproportionately socially awkward. i blame bad (but traditional) parenting.


And it's well taken into consideration. Frankly I don't necessarily disagree either. But in a hiring perspective, wouldn't you rather want a white lawyer to work with you ?
Feel free to anon reply anyone reading this.


not necessarily, although i see how it could be interpreted that way. at the end of the day, an interviewer is looking for someone sociable and that they could bond with. the interviewee must essentially convince the interviewer that if they were stuck at the airport for 2 hours because of a delay, they'd be able to get along great. unfortunately, a white person would fit this bill more often than an asian for the aforementioned reasons. so no, i don't think it's racially motivated, but it certainly has a disparate racial impact.

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:13 pm

sad that stereotypes are still against asian-americans even in this thread. Most of my asian classmates are very sociable people. I think the ones who face problems are international students from Asia. It is understandable for them because they face cultural and language barriers. Most of us would be as sociable as doorknobs if we work in Japan, Korea, China, etc for the same reasons.

Master Tofu
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:14 pm

f0bolous wrote:
A Purple Cow wrote:Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.


this has been my observation as well. it's unfortunate that asians are disproportionately socially awkward. i blame bad (but traditional) parenting.




I think the general point is right - the problem is not recruitment but retention of diverse lawyers.

What is the basis for the second claim, that asians are disproportionately socially awkward viz non-asians? I hope this is well-grounded.

de5igual
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby de5igual » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:18 pm

Master Tofu wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
A Purple Cow wrote:Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.


this has been my observation as well. it's unfortunate that asians are disproportionately socially awkward. i blame bad (but traditional) parenting.




I think the general point is right - the problem is not recruitment but retention of diverse lawyers.

What is the basis for the second claim, that asians are disproportionately socially awkward viz non-asians? I hope this is well-grounded.


a google search for 'asian' and 'socially awkward' conjures up a plethora of sites/studies/commentaries

ran12
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby ran12 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:20 pm

The problem results from numbers to begin with. Asians make up a much smaller part of the population; so small that they're not really even mentioned in census or diversity type polls. Basically just thrown in with whites a lot of the time due to socioeconomic background.

Anyway, b/c there are so many less Asians, and many of them go into medicine or something similar instead, there is no other outcome but less Asians. When looking at partner numbers, proportionally, Asians prob aren't that much off than whites. You can never look at total numbers and make an educated guess; that makes no sense.

The awkward Asian stereotype is almost entirely based on FOBs or people who grow up in very ethnic neighborhoods. Most Asians who grow up in white neighborhoods in places like Long Island, Jersey, and VA are pretty normal and as or more sociable than whites.

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:42 pm

f0bolous wrote:
a google search for 'asian' and 'socially awkward' conjures up a plethora of sites/studies/commentaries


I just don't know how accurate that would be. But I can imagine if someone thinks what he or she has read on internet allows him or her to generalize Asian-Americans, this person, in the position as a hiring partner, might be less inclined to hire Asian-American law students.

Perception is reality I guess.

Anonymous User
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:43 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Master Tofu wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
A Purple Cow wrote:Is this post a flame? Tons of Asians (both Asian-born and Asian-American, the latter of which have no "problems" with English) at top tier NYC firms. While they're certainly underrepresented in the partnership ranks (that's a whole different issue), they're definitely a visible presence in SA and junior associate classes. Off the top of my head, I know many at Cravath, DPW, S&C, and Cleary (all NYC) this summer.

If anything, all things being equal, I think most top firms would take an Asian applicant over a white one simply because of (arguably superficial) diversity purposes. To the extent certain Asians don't make the cut, I would say that often comes down not to bias but because of poor interviewing skills, which I would argue affects Asians more often than it does whites.


this has been my observation as well. it's unfortunate that asians are disproportionately socially awkward. i blame bad (but traditional) parenting.




I think the general point is right - the problem is not recruitment but retention of diverse lawyers.

What is the basis for the second claim, that asians are disproportionately socially awkward viz non-asians? I hope this is well-grounded.


a google search for 'asian' and 'socially awkward' conjures up a plethora of sites/studies/commentaries


I did the search - below are the top 5 results.

1. http://dearsociallyawkwardroommates.tumblr.com/ - a blog by devoted to awkward roommates in college.
2. http://dearsociallyawkwardroommates.tumblr.com/ - second hit by the same blog.
3. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Socially- ... 2201948056 - facebook group looking for awkward asians.
4. http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-MOST- ... 0023248832 - facebook page of "the most awkward asian"
5. memegenerator.net/Socially-Awkward-Asian - an awkward asian meme-generator.


These results and "commentaries" are the reasons why you think asians are disproportionately awkward? I won't ask you to tell me how many awkward white people you've met because I don't want to waste my time running another google search. Just know that your unrepentant attitude after being caught in the middle of making a broad and unsubstantiated stereotype is more offensive to me than the actual stereotype itself.

Master Tofu
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby Master Tofu » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:47 pm



I did the search - below are the top 5 results.

1. http://dearsociallyawkwardroommates.tumblr.com/ - a blog by devoted to awkward roommates in college.
2. http://dearsociallyawkwardroommates.tumblr.com/ - second hit by the same blog.
3. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Socially- ... 2201948056 - facebook group looking for awkward asians.
4. http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-MOST- ... 0023248832 - facebook page of "the most awkward asian"
5. memegenerator.net/Socially-Awkward-Asian - an awkward asian meme-generator.


These results and "commentaries" are the reasons why you think asians are disproportionately awkward? I won't ask you to tell me how many awkward white people you've met because I don't want to waste my time running another google search. Just know that your unrepentant attitude after being caught in the middle of making a broad and unsubstantiated stereotype is more offensive to me than the actual stereotype itself.



That was me. I hit anonymous by accident. I want you to know who is calling you a douchebag.

adonai
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby adonai » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:47 pm

So does this mean asians finally get a URM bump :)

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RVP11
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Re: Asians in Big Law

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:52 pm

f0bolous wrote:asians are disproportionately socially awkward


This will drive tons of TLSers up the wall, but I think most law students would agree.




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