Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

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Which stinks less?

Shit Law
6
32%
Crap Law
13
68%
 
Total votes: 19

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Mattalones
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Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Mattalones » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:12 am

I actually don't know what either of these are. People seem to say doc review is crap law, but that is all most big law attorneys do for several years. Is it based on pay? Some jobs pay $50k-$60k per year but people are gunning for them (e.g. clerkships, some gov't agencies, etc), and some pay huge amounts of money but no one wants to do it (e.g. uncontested matrimonial in high volume). Is crap/shit law something with neither high pay nor high prestige, where one or the other is tolerable? . . . Just a random question that might be of interest.

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Borhas
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Borhas » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:18 am

Mattalones wrote:I actually don't know what either of these are. People seem to say doc review is crap law, but that is all most big law attorneys do for several years. Is it based on pay? Some jobs pay $50k-$60k per year but people are gunning for them (e.g. clerkships, some gov't agencies, etc), and some pay huge amounts of money but no one wants to do it (e.g. uncontested matrimonial in high volume). Is crap/shit law something with neither high pay nor high prestige, where one or the other is tolerable? . . . Just a random question that might be of interest.


what you describe as crap law seems to be what 1st year associates do as they are trained, which probably sucks balls but is paid well and respected (well maybe not the work but just being a BigLaw associate)

what you describe as shit law is temp doc review, which is the worst of the worst of all legal jobs (or maybe all jobs in general) it is not paid well ($25/hr no over time and only for short spurts)

PI jobs which pay shit, and Gov't jobs which pay crap, or slightly better are not usually considered "shit law" because they have opportunity for advancement, and are generally respected to some degree. They also open the door for IBR cancellation which is very valuable.

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Mattalones
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Mattalones » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:26 am

A rather intelligent answer! Given the late night ramblig in my post, I tip my hat to you more so than I would to someone who worked in shit law. If you do crap law, you might still be okay in my book.

Further questioning: What is the relation between government jobs paying crap and being crap law? And is making government pay after several years really crap? I think what we really want to know is what kind of shit will really get you in the crapper? I mean, you could say, "My pay s crap, but at least I don't have to put up with the shit those biglaw attorneys deal with." Or, "The work is shit, but I get paid a crapload!" But contract attorneys say, "I get paid jack shit to do a bunch of random crap!" I'm glad my legal education is teaching me to deal with fine distinctions like this. :lol:

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englawyer
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby englawyer » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:45 am

in addition to temp doc review, i thought shit law also incorporated any type of law that deals with the average joe instead of the super-wealthy or corporations. IE the solo practitioner doing DUI, divorce, wills, real estate signings, etc.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:05 am

there is only law and shit law.

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A'nold
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:35 pm

gwuorbust wrote:there is only law and shit law.

+1. Stop trying to create another category of poop.

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Mattalones
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Mattalones » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:49 pm

englawyer wrote:. . . shit law also incorporated any type of law that deals with the average joe instead of the super-wealthy or corporations. IE the solo practitioner doing . . . divorce, wills, real estate signings, etc.


I am actually working at a courthouse in downtown Manhattan this summer and have come to see that a lot of these guys are HUGE ballers - at least the ones coming through here. Don't don't confuse unglamourous law with shit or crap law.

One of them I've gotten to know came up to me the other day, plopped a large stack of manila folders in front of me, and said, "What does this look like to you, kid?" I said, "a lot of paperwork," to which he replied, "Ah, perhaps to the untrained eye. I see over $150,000 for the taking." When I asked why, he explained, "These are all uncontested divorces. A non-attorney could do them for $400 a pop and a lawyer gets more. All you do is fill out the forms and stamp'm."

This was the best part: As he picked up his stamp, he said, "Watch!" He stamped one - "$500." Then the next - "$1,000." Then another - "$1,500" . . . "And it goes on like that for all 400 or so of these things. Lawyers turn their nose up at this stuff because they think it isn't challenging enough. You know what's challenging? Earning enough money in your thirties to buy your second Bentley, and I just got my third! Keep your eyes on the prize, kid."

It was like a crazy scened out of a movie. Then I went to ask my judge, who used to do matrimonial cases, and she confirmed it. She told me she wouldn't do it as a living, but the money is there for anyone who can find uncontested divorces.

In the end, I wouldn't call this crap law. . . . Crazy!

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npe
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby npe » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:01 pm

Mattalones wrote:I actually don't know what either of these are.


Mattalones wrote:Don't don't confuse unglamourous law with shit or crap law.


Buh?

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Mattalones
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Mattalones » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:04 pm

^^^ Out of context, but touche! ^^^

Zing . . . :lol:

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rayiner
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby rayiner » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:39 pm

Mattalones wrote:I actually don't know what either of these are. People seem to say doc review is crap law, but that is all most big law attorneys do for several years. Is it based on pay? Some jobs pay $50k-$60k per year but people are gunning for them (e.g. clerkships, some gov't agencies, etc), and some pay huge amounts of money but no one wants to do it (e.g. uncontested matrimonial in high volume). Is crap/shit law something with neither high pay nor high prestige, where one or the other is tolerable? . . . Just a random question that might be of interest.


Big law attorneys do not just do doc review for several years, but then again neither do attorneys outside biglaw. Everyone just does a lot less doc review than the boards claim.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:35 am

Shit, I mis-voted. Crap law stinks less

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Naked Dude
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Naked Dude » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:13 am

englawyer wrote:in addition to temp doc review, i thought shit law also incorporated any type of law that deals with the average joe instead of the super-wealthy or corporations. IE the solo practitioner doing DUI, divorce, wills, real estate signings, etc.


If we're defining by money, you can make a pretty good living doing divorce. By job satisfaction though, sounds like shit.

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Naked Dude
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Naked Dude » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:16 am

Mattalones wrote:
englawyer wrote:. . . shit law also incorporated any type of law that deals with the average joe instead of the super-wealthy or corporations. IE the solo practitioner doing . . . divorce, wills, real estate signings, etc.


I am actually working at a courthouse in downtown Manhattan this summer and have come to see that a lot of these guys are HUGE ballers - at least the ones coming through here. Don't don't confuse unglamourous law with shit or crap law.

One of them I've gotten to know came up to me the other day, plopped a large stack of manila folders in front of me, and said, "What does this look like to you, kid?" I said, "a lot of paperwork," to which he replied, "Ah, perhaps to the untrained eye. I see over $150,000 for the taking." When I asked why, he explained, "These are all uncontested divorces. A non-attorney could do them for $400 a pop and a lawyer gets more. All you do is fill out the forms and stamp'm."

This was the best part: As he picked up his stamp, he said, "Watch!" He stamped one - "$500." Then the next - "$1,000." Then another - "$1,500" . . . "And it goes on like that for all 400 or so of these things. Lawyers turn their nose up at this stuff because they think it isn't challenging enough. You know what's challenging? Earning enough money in your thirties to buy your second Bentley, and I just got my third! Keep your eyes on the prize, kid."

It was like a crazy scened out of a movie. Then I went to ask my judge, who used to do matrimonial cases, and she confirmed it. She told me she wouldn't do it as a living, but the money is there for anyone who can find uncontested divorces.

In the end, I wouldn't call this crap law. . . . Crazy!


The LAW is not glamorous, but everything else seems like it. If anything, it seems like you're only unglamorous to self-respecting lawyers. To Joe Schmoe you're a baller lawyer. Got to be such an ego trip

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tyro
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby tyro » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:27 am

Mattalones wrote:
englawyer wrote:. . . shit law also incorporated any type of law that deals with the average joe instead of the super-wealthy or corporations. IE the solo practitioner doing . . . divorce, wills, real estate signings, etc.


As he picked up his stamp, he said, "Watch!" He stamped one - "$500." Then the next - "$1,000." Then another - "$1,500" . . . "And it goes on like that for all 400 or so of these things. Lawyers turn their nose up at this stuff because they think it isn't challenging enough. You know what's challenging? Earning enough money in your thirties to buy your second Bentley, and I just got my third! Keep your eyes on the prize, kid."


Are you sure this wasn't from a movie?

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shepdawg
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby shepdawg » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Mattalones wrote:
englawyer wrote:. . . shit law also incorporated any type of law that deals with the average joe instead of the super-wealthy or corporations. IE the solo practitioner doing . . . divorce, wills, real estate signings, etc.


I am actually working at a courthouse in downtown Manhattan this summer and have come to see that a lot of these guys are HUGE ballers - at least the ones coming through here. Don't don't confuse unglamourous law with shit or crap law.

One of them I've gotten to know came up to me the other day, plopped a large stack of manila folders in front of me, and said, "What does this look like to you, kid?" I said, "a lot of paperwork," to which he replied, "Ah, perhaps to the untrained eye. I see over $150,000 for the taking." When I asked why, he explained, "These are all uncontested divorces. A non-attorney could do them for $400 a pop and a lawyer gets more. All you do is fill out the forms and stamp'm."

This was the best part: As he picked up his stamp, he said, "Watch!" He stamped one - "$500." Then the next - "$1,000." Then another - "$1,500" . . . "And it goes on like that for all 400 or so of these things. Lawyers turn their nose up at this stuff because they think it isn't challenging enough. You know what's challenging? Earning enough money in your thirties to buy your second Bentley, and I just got my third! Keep your eyes on the prize, kid."

It was like a crazy scened out of a movie. Then I went to ask my judge, who used to do matrimonial cases, and she confirmed it. She told me she wouldn't do it as a living, but the money is there for anyone who can find uncontested divorces.

In the end, I wouldn't call this crap law. . . . Crazy!


Great story. How does one go about getting into this field?

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Mattalones
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Mattalones » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:19 am

I don't know. He didn't tell me how to get someone to feed you that many uncontested divorces. I'd be down to do that. Especially if you had your own practice and hired associates to do a lot of the bitch work. After a while, you'd just take the interesting cases, but still be making pretty good money.

My guess on how to get that many uncontested divorces is doing matrimonial and getting to know a matrimonial judge or people in that department. When people come in with papers that aren't done right, the clerk could just be like, "These are really messed up and will cause you more trouble than they are worth if they aren't done right. Lawyers for this kind of thing aren't expensive and are well worth the few hundred you spend to make sure it's all done right. Call X. He'll do it for $500, and you'll never have to think about it again."

Then, $100 would go to the clerk who said that, X would keep $400, and that would happen all of the time! . . . Just a guess though.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:55 pm

Mattalones wrote: Especially if you had your own practice and hired associates to do a lot of the bitch work.


I wonder what the "bitch work" entails in this line of work, if the prominent attorney's job is to stamp pieces of paper

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Borhas
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Borhas » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Mattalones wrote:I don't know. He didn't tell me how to get someone to feed you that many uncontested divorces. I'd be down to do that. Especially if you had your own practice and hired associates to do a lot of the bitch work. After a while, you'd just take the interesting cases, but still be making pretty good money.

My guess on how to get that many uncontested divorces is doing matrimonial and getting to know a matrimonial judge or people in that department. When people come in with papers that aren't done right, the clerk could just be like, "These are really messed up and will cause you more trouble than they are worth if they aren't done right. Lawyers for this kind of thing aren't expensive and are well worth the few hundred you spend to make sure it's all done right. Call X. He'll do it for $500, and you'll never have to think about it again."

Then, $100 would go to the clerk who said that, X would keep $400, and that would happen all of the time! . . . Just a guess though.


Areyouinsane spoke of a similar tactic that PI guys used... only the PI (personal injury) atty's would pay hospital staff some money to refer clients to them...

seems illegal or close to it, but probably a sound business venture otherwise

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:40 pm

Borhas wrote:Areyouinsane spoke of a similar tactic that PI guys used... only the PI (personal injury) atty's would pay hospital staff some money to refer clients to them...


Pure genius. With this method the PI attorney saves himself the cost of jordans, because he doesn't have to chase down ambulances to get those clients.

Actually, the methods PI attorneys use to get clients are interesting. I got rear ended in my car (like a 5 mph bump), the other girl got a ticket, we both drove away fine. Then a couple weeks later I got a letter in the mail from the personal injury lawyer "informing me of my rights" and to call him if there were any injuries in the accident. I don't know how the fuck the guy got my information or that I was even in an accident. The only thing I can think of is that either the officer had to have given the attorney my information or one of the insurance companies did, and it was easier for the attorney to just send out a letter to everyone that was in any kind of accident than to actually go through the reports to determine whether there was a personal injury.

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Naked Dude
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Naked Dude » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:28 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Borhas wrote:Areyouinsane spoke of a similar tactic that PI guys used... only the PI (personal injury) atty's would pay hospital staff some money to refer clients to them...


Pure genius. With this method the PI attorney saves himself the cost of jordans, because he doesn't have to chase down ambulances to get those clients.

Actually, the methods PI attorneys use to get clients are interesting. I got rear ended in my car (like a 5 mph bump), the other girl got a ticket, we both drove away fine. Then a couple weeks later I got a letter in the mail from the personal injury lawyer "informing me of my rights" and to call him if there were any injuries in the accident. I don't know how the fuck the guy got my information or that I was even in an accident. The only thing I can think of is that either the officer had to have given the attorney my information or one of the insurance companies did, and it was easier for the attorney to just send out a letter to everyone that was in any kind of accident than to actually go through the reports to determine whether there was a personal injury.


Makes sense. I worked for a PI guy once. One of the most important things to understand about that line of work is that you live and die by your referrals. The more creative/enterprising you can get, the better.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:24 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Borhas wrote:Areyouinsane spoke of a similar tactic that PI guys used... only the PI (personal injury) atty's would pay hospital staff some money to refer clients to them...


Pure genius. With this method the PI attorney saves himself the cost of jordans, because he doesn't have to chase down ambulances to get those clients.

Actually, the methods PI attorneys use to get clients are interesting. I got rear ended in my car (like a 5 mph bump), the other girl got a ticket, we both drove away fine. Then a couple weeks later I got a letter in the mail from the personal injury lawyer "informing me of my rights" and to call him if there were any injuries in the accident. I don't know how the fuck the guy got my information or that I was even in an accident. The only thing I can think of is that either the officer had to have given the attorney my information or one of the insurance companies did, and it was easier for the attorney to just send out a letter to everyone that was in any kind of accident than to actually go through the reports to determine whether there was a personal injury.


paying hospital staff is a sure fire way to get disbarred quick. It violates Rule 7 of the ethical code in many different ways.

as for how he got your info, if there was an accident report or anything filed then that would become public records somewhere. from there all the lawyers have to do is wait 30 days after the incident and then they can mail away.

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Naked Dude
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Re: Shit Law v.s. Crap Law

Postby Naked Dude » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:11 am

gwuorbust wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Borhas wrote:Areyouinsane spoke of a similar tactic that PI guys used... only the PI (personal injury) atty's would pay hospital staff some money to refer clients to them...


Pure genius. With this method the PI attorney saves himself the cost of jordans, because he doesn't have to chase down ambulances to get those clients.

Actually, the methods PI attorneys use to get clients are interesting. I got rear ended in my car (like a 5 mph bump), the other girl got a ticket, we both drove away fine. Then a couple weeks later I got a letter in the mail from the personal injury lawyer "informing me of my rights" and to call him if there were any injuries in the accident. I don't know how the fuck the guy got my information or that I was even in an accident. The only thing I can think of is that either the officer had to have given the attorney my information or one of the insurance companies did, and it was easier for the attorney to just send out a letter to everyone that was in any kind of accident than to actually go through the reports to determine whether there was a personal injury.


paying hospital staff is a sure fire way to get disbarred quick. It violates Rule 7 of the ethical code in many different ways.

as for how he got your info, if there was an accident report or anything filed then that would become public records somewhere. from there all the lawyers have to do is wait 30 days after the incident and then they can mail away.


This. An intelligent businessman wouldn't actually pay but getting to know doctors and such and having unofficial nonmonetary compensation is better




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