Firms to avoid

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alabamabound
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby alabamabound » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:08 am

bdubs wrote:
quakeroats wrote:I've heard Cravath is living on its reputation from the 80s and 90s. My information is second hand, so I can't vouch for accuracy.


Don't all law firms live on their reputation? If they continue to get work then they will continue to make money.

It's another story though if all of the business comes from older partners who made a name in the 80s and will have to retire soon. I don't think this is the case at CSM though.


I don't think "the decline of CSM" is an accurate take on the firm based on conversations with transactional partners at its peers. "Cravath is still Cravath" is what I've heard.

alabamabound
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby alabamabound » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:13 am

nhop wrote:Anyone know the scoop on Dewey & LeBoeuf? I heard (anecdotally) that it was not a great place to be, post-merger.


I have heard that Dewey was a bad place to be for awhile after an earlier proposed merger fell through, but things are better post-merger. Pre-merger, LeBoeuf was basically just an insurance law firm so the Dewey rep may have taken a hit but they're probably more stable.

Rule11
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Rule11 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:23 am

I'd add that the only firm I would say to avoid (if you live such a luxurious life) would be Skadden. An associate in LA recently died from overwork (call it what you like), and my direct observation of associates in the NY office confirm that associates are expected to work insanely hard, even by NY biglaw standards, and get treated very poorly by partners and senior associates (the latter group perhaps moreso).

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SweetrollStealer
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby SweetrollStealer » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:46 am

alabamabound wrote:
nhop wrote:Anyone know the scoop on Dewey & LeBoeuf? I heard (anecdotally) that it was not a great place to be, post-merger.


I have heard that Dewey was a bad place to be for awhile after an earlier proposed merger fell through, but things are better post-merger. Pre-merger, LeBoeuf was basically just an insurance law firm so the Dewey rep may have taken a hit but they're probably more stable.


Good to know, thanks!

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rocon7383
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby rocon7383 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:Shakiest AmLaw 100 firm today: OMM.
Treats associates poorly (without a corresponding boost in prestige/exit options): Cadwalader, K&L Gates, Venable, Faegre.
Doing badly economically: Pillsbury, Hogan's satellite offices, particularly ones where they have tried to compete with local firms in terms of cost (and aren't succeeding).


First time I've heard something bad about k&l gates. Can you expound on that?

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:21 pm

rocon7383 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Shakiest AmLaw 100 firm today: OMM.
Treats associates poorly (without a corresponding boost in prestige/exit options): Cadwalader, K&L Gates, Venable, Faegre.
Doing badly economically: Pillsbury, Hogan's satellite offices, particularly ones where they have tried to compete with local firms in terms of cost (and aren't succeeding).


First time I've heard something bad about k&l gates. Can you expound on that?


They are supposedly super secretive about compensation and it pisses everyone off.

keg411
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby keg411 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:13 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:I'll be doing a megapost in a few hours about firms to avoid and how to make wise picks. Watch for it.


Definitely curious to read this.

Puttanesca
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Puttanesca » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:36 pm

Tagging this thread.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:44 pm

Greenberg Traurig...at least their reputation in LA is sweatshop-esque with very very little hope for advancement. I've been told they'll chew you up and spit you out.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Greenberg Traurig...at least their reputation in LA is sweatshop-esque with very very little hope for advancement. I've been told they'll chew you up and spit you out.


The Atlanta office has the same reputation (dictatorial managers) but I've also heard the Florida offices (Miami and Tampa especially) are much less sweatshop-esque.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Greenberg Traurig...at least their reputation in LA is sweatshop-esque with very very little hope for advancement. I've been told they'll chew you up and spit you out.


The Atlanta office has the same reputation (dictatorial managers) but I've also heard the Florida offices (Miami and Tampa especially) are much less sweatshop-esque.


Greenberg Tampa sucks. It is not regarded as one of the better and well known firms in the area. No idea about whether it is a sweatshop, but I have heard that the office is not well run.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:12 pm

I think Greenberg Traurig isn't in the same league as the other firms discussed in this thread. A person with an offer from Dechert and Cadwalader probably has other real options. If you read a typical Greenberg Traurig bio, I really doubt the same is true. There's a lot of third tier and fourth tier students at Greenberg, and any person that did a prestigious clerkship that works there clearly washed out at a better firm before they landed at Greenberg. If you’re choosing between dog bite law and GT, you choose GT. If you’re choosing between Cadwalader, White and Case, or Dechert and another firm in the same vault range, that’s a different issue.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:35 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had to respond because the rationale being offered about OMM being "shaky" is so lulzy. OMM is not on shaky ground. Now, if you want to do corporate work, I wouldn't advise going to the NY office, but it's otherwise just fine. The NY office merged with another firm back in the early 2000s (I believe) in order to obtain one of their clients, Apollo. That was basically all the transactional work in the NY office. The merger was, by all accounts, a terrible idea, save the massive client. The partners who came in with the client left to go to Paul Weiss and took some associates with them with whom they'd worked at OMM. That was the vast majority of the departures and to be expected when the O'Sullivan folks bounced to PW. If you look at the list from ATL, most of the partners who left are NY partners.

Beyond the NY office, some partners have left for different reasons. Mark Easton (a partner in LA) left to become general counsel at Warner Brothers. Another LA partner, Steve Olson, left to become the president of Aletheia Management, an investment advising company.

All this is to say that one should do more than just read ATL for some surface level information. Go ask friends and classmates for information about firms.


I have a friend at OMM (full time) and she is terrified/considering her options.

Listen, it's true that some of the partners left on amicable terms, and that many of the partners left as a result of the merger not working out. But 22 partners is roughly 10% of the O'Melveny partnership leaving in half a year (not to mention, many of the partners were very prominent, which means probably well more than 10% of the revenue walked out the door).

I agree that OMM isn't necessarily doomed, but it means one of two things: (1) Either they cut expenses (read: associates/SA hiring) to get in line with their reduced revenue base, or (2) they take a hit to PPP and start losing more partners. Either scenario should worry you if you are considering working at the firm.



I'm at OMM and I haven't seen a cut to expenses that is out of line with the adjusted ITE levels (still hire the same number of summers, etc.). From what I know, they are also hiring associates for some offices. And, as mentioned on ATL lately, they recently moved up the start date for the Class of 2011 because there is a lot of work to go around. I don't know about the NYC office, but by all accounts, the DC, LA, and CC offices have been very busy.

I also haven't seen anything to suggest that all the partners who worked on Apollo were bringing in profit above the costs of managing the client. You also haven't mentioned what office and practice area your friend is in. If she's NYC corporate, then as mentioned above, it's probably not the best career choice right now.

But, you know, thanks for schooling me on OMM.

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thesealocust
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Just for the record: All of these places involve people who earn 6 (and 7) figure salaries while practicing major corporate law (be it transactional, litigation, or government affairs based). You can shit on DLA or any other firm, whether or not you have the creds to work there, but realize that in the grand scheme of things they're all pretty major businesses and ANY firm with a summer program and 6 figure salaries is in the big leagues. Just because some of the leagues are even bigger doesn't mean there aren't dozens of thousands of law students every year who would trades a testical or a limb or two for such an opportunity, and there are great attorneys working at every firm listed here.

Yes, if you have options some of these firms might raise red flags, but the mob mentality ITT is a little out of hand.

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:55 pm

alabamabound wrote:
bdubs wrote:
quakeroats wrote:I've heard Cravath is living on its reputation from the 80s and 90s. My information is second hand, so I can't vouch for accuracy.


Don't all law firms live on their reputation? If they continue to get work then they will continue to make money.

It's another story though if all of the business comes from older partners who made a name in the 80s and will have to retire soon. I don't think this is the case at CSM though.


I don't think "the decline of CSM" is an accurate take on the firm based on conversations with transactional partners at its peers. "Cravath is still Cravath" is what I've heard.


This. Cravath has a ton of brilliant partners, many of them in their 30s, 40s and 50s. And they still bring in the high-powered clients--IBM, JPMorgan, Time Warner, Barnes & Noble, Royal Dutch Shell, Hertz, AirProducts. And they just landed DOJ Antitrust chief Christine Varney. Don't see how exactly they're "declining."

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby jeeptiger09 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:58 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:I'll be doing a megapost in a few hours about firms to avoid and how to make wise picks. Watch for it.


tagged for the bomb drop

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:04 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Just for the record: All of these places involve people who earn 6 (and 7) figure salaries while practicing major corporate law (be it transactional, litigation, or government affairs based). You can shit on DLA or any other firm, whether or not you have the creds to work there, but realize that in the grand scheme of things they're all pretty major businesses and ANY firm with a summer program and 6 figure salaries is in the big leagues. Just because some of the leagues are even bigger doesn't mean there aren't dozens of thousands of law students every year who would trades a testical or a limb or two for such an opportunity, and there are great attorneys working at every firm listed here.

Yes, if you have options some of these firms might raise red flags, but the mob mentality ITT is a little out of hand.



Did you really get into Penn with a 162 and 2.2? did you really turn down Penn ffor Catholic? I'm sure the answer is no, but I just had to ask.


Yes, and yes. Why do you ask?

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:16 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Just for the record: All of these places involve people who earn 6 (and 7) figure salaries while practicing major corporate law (be it transactional, litigation, or government affairs based). You can shit on DLA or any other firm, whether or not you have the creds to work there, but realize that in the grand scheme of things they're all pretty major businesses and ANY firm with a summer program and 6 figure salaries is in the big leagues. Just because some of the leagues are even bigger doesn't mean there aren't dozens of thousands of law students every year who would trades a testical or a limb or two for such an opportunity, and there are great attorneys working at every firm listed here.

Yes, if you have options some of these firms might raise red flags, but the mob mentality ITT is a little out of hand.



Did you really get into Penn with a 162 and 2.2? did you really turn down Penn ffor Catholic? I'm sure the answer is no, but I just had to ask.


Yes, and yes. Why do you ask?


Are you really 5'4" tall?

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quakeroats
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby quakeroats » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:16 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Just for the record: All of these places involve people who earn 6 (and 7) figure salaries while practicing major corporate law (be it transactional, litigation, or government affairs based). You can shit on DLA or any other firm, whether or not you have the creds to work there, but realize that in the grand scheme of things they're all pretty major businesses and ANY firm with a summer program and 6 figure salaries is in the big leagues. Just because some of the leagues are even bigger doesn't mean there aren't dozens of thousands of law students every year who would trades a testical or a limb or two for such an opportunity, and there are great attorneys working at every firm listed here.

Yes, if you have options some of these firms might raise red flags, but the mob mentality ITT is a little out of hand.



Did you really get into Penn with a 162 and 2.2? did you really turn down Penn ffor Catholic? I'm sure the answer is no, but I just had to ask.


Yes, and yes. Why do you ask?


He went to the Catholic of Central Virginia

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$1.99
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby $1.99 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:19 pm

this thread is gold jerry gold!

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:22 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Just for the record: All of these places involve people who earn 6 (and 7) figure salaries while practicing major corporate law (be it transactional, litigation, or government affairs based). You can shit on DLA or any other firm, whether or not you have the creds to work there, but realize that in the grand scheme of things they're all pretty major businesses and ANY firm with a summer program and 6 figure salaries is in the big leagues. Just because some of the leagues are even bigger doesn't mean there aren't dozens of thousands of law students every year who would trades a testical or a limb or two for such an opportunity, and there are great attorneys working at every firm listed here.

Yes, if you have options some of these firms might raise red flags, but the mob mentality ITT is a little out of hand.



Did you really get into Penn with a 162 and 2.2? did you really turn down Penn ffor Catholic? I'm sure the answer is no, but I just had to ask.


Yes, and yes. Why do you ask?


Good for you man. How's Greenberg Traurig? Why did they take all their salary info off NALP?

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thesealocust
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Just for the record: All of these places involve people who earn 6 (and 7) figure salaries while practicing major corporate law (be it transactional, litigation, or government affairs based). You can shit on DLA or any other firm, whether or not you have the creds to work there, but realize that in the grand scheme of things they're all pretty major businesses and ANY firm with a summer program and 6 figure salaries is in the big leagues. Just because some of the leagues are even bigger doesn't mean there aren't dozens of thousands of law students every year who would trades a testical or a limb or two for such an opportunity, and there are great attorneys working at every firm listed here.

Yes, if you have options some of these firms might raise red flags, but the mob mentality ITT is a little out of hand.



Did you really get into Penn with a 162 and 2.2? did you really turn down Penn ffor Catholic? I'm sure the answer is no, but I just had to ask.


Yes, and yes. Why do you ask?


Good for you man. How's Greenberg Traurig? Why did they take all their salary info off NALP?


:lol:

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sunynp
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby sunynp » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:35 pm

Why does this thread's content need to get personal? No one is attacking any one for working at any of these firms. If you do work at a firm, and bad info is posted, clearing up misconceptions benefits everyone reading this thread.
Maybe a lot of what is posted will turn out to be exaggerated one way or another because much of it is anecdotal. I am sure the people who got Lathamed or let go by Howrey even before they started, would have liked to have some sense that the firms were in trouble. Or even a sense of how OCi might go this year based on what is happening at the firms right now this summer.

At least this thread is an attempt to gather information and correct false impressions.

I seriously doubt that any one who wanted biglaw would turn down Cravath because of some rumor. But maybe they would look more closely at the actual work environment of Skadden and all the other sweatshop places. Me, I didn't know how DLA Piper was structured.

It is easy to assume that everyone knows this information about firms, but people outside the biglaw circuit need as much information as they can get. Many people in this forum say they want biglaw but I don't know how many of them really have a clue what biglaw is about. Associates haven't always posted about their firms. Given that can be done here anonymously, I think we could make a good resource. I think people can even mention a range of firms if they don't feel comfortable identifying the firm where they work.
Last edited by sunynp on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dood
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby dood » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:39 pm

i for one love the gossip about wat firm is gonna collapse next




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