Firms to avoid

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've heard similar things about most of the firms discussed on this thread, with the exception of K&E being mentioned before as working associates like crazy. Any one else heard similarly?

I have a family friend at Dechert (NY office) who said that the really crazy work hours seems limited to corporate only in the past year or two because people have been leaving and they haven't started hiring until recently, and the other groups are busy and work hard, but the environment isn't cut throat like other places. Their no-offer and then hiring 3Ls from two years ago is shady, but did full offers this year on the last day so hopefully that trend will stick around.


Very interested in hearing about the environment at Dechert NY. Any idea what his "typical" hours might look like? Any other info is also greatly appreciated!


I'm the poster above. To clarify, my family friend is not in corporate so he doesn't have the "really crazy work hours" that he says his corporate colleagues have. I'm not sure what number of hours he was talking about for corporate, but I know that he himself is in a small group and works, on average, about 9-10 hours daily during the week and a few hours on weekends.

keg411
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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby keg411 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
keg411 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've heard similar things about most of the firms discussed on this thread, with the exception of K&E being mentioned before as working associates like crazy. Any one else heard similarly?

I have a family friend at Dechert (NY office) who said that the really crazy work hours seems limited to corporate only in the past year or two because people have been leaving and they haven't started hiring until recently, and the other groups are busy and work hard, but the environment isn't cut throat like other places. Their no-offer and then hiring 3Ls from two years ago is shady, but did full offers this year on the last day so hopefully that trend will stick around.


K&E has tons of work and associates do tons of work. This is a good thing ITE.


However, the K&E free-market approach and cutthroat environment also isn't for everyone. And they were a major no-offer offender a few years ago as well. But I agree the fact that a firm is "busy" and "associates work a lot" should not be a reason to avoid a firm ITE.

(I will now eat a bit of crow on my K&E-dislike since if I end up in major-market BigLaw at all this summer, it will likely be at a firm that has a far worse reputation than K&E on the "shark tank", "sink or swim", and "Type A" front :lol:)



And which firm is that, out of curiuosity? (I would likei to avoid such firms.) Feel free to list A or B or C if you don't want to be completely specific.


Don't want to out my only NYC CB, but it's already been mentioned ITT.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've heard similar things about most of the firms discussed on this thread, with the exception of K&E being mentioned before as working associates like crazy. Any one else heard similarly?

I have a family friend at Dechert (NY office) who said that the really crazy work hours seems limited to corporate only in the past year or two because people have been leaving and they haven't started hiring until recently, and the other groups are busy and work hard, but the environment isn't cut throat like other places. Their no-offer and then hiring 3Ls from two years ago is shady, but did full offers this year on the last day so hopefully that trend will stick around.


Very interested in hearing about the environment at Dechert NY. Any idea what his "typical" hours might look like? Any other info is also greatly appreciated!


Don't know anything about Dechert hours, but do know two things. First, the firm keeps "weirdly" expanding and contracting, according to a contact in the industry (don't want to out myself, but he is pretty high-level and generally trustworthy on these things). The translation is: when Dechert decides your practice group isn't pulling its weight, it will just cut the entire group. Second, Dechert refused to give offers to like half of its rising 3Ls until January recently, while meanwhile it was interviewing other 3L candidates. This is all on ATL somewhere, but too lazy to look up the link (consequently, I might be off on the details, but not far enough off for this not to be terrifying).

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've heard similar things about most of the firms discussed on this thread, with the exception of K&E being mentioned before as working associates like crazy. Any one else heard similarly?

I have a family friend at Dechert (NY office) who said that the really crazy work hours seems limited to corporate only in the past year or two because people have been leaving and they haven't started hiring until recently, and the other groups are busy and work hard, but the environment isn't cut throat like other places. Their no-offer and then hiring 3Ls from two years ago is shady, but did full offers this year on the last day so hopefully that trend will stick around.


Very interested in hearing about the environment at Dechert NY. Any idea what his "typical" hours might look like? Any other info is also greatly appreciated!


Don't know anything about Dechert hours, but do know two things. First, the firm keeps "weirdly" expanding and contracting, according to a contact in the industry (don't want to out myself, but he is pretty high-level and generally trustworthy on these things). The translation is: when Dechert decides your practice group isn't pulling its weight, it will just cut the entire group. Second, Dechert refused to give offers to like half of its rising 3Ls until January recently, while meanwhile it was interviewing other 3L candidates. This is all on ATL somewhere, but too lazy to look up the link (consequently, I might be off on the details, but not far enough off for this not to be terrifying).


i know everyone keeps harping on dehcert's "no-offer" scandal from a couple years ago, but after the extreme negative publicity that brought them do you really think they'd try pulling that stunt again? don't think so. not saying dechert is a wonderful place to work or anything (i actually have no ability to comment on whether it is or isn't), but i think we should stop bringing this one thing up as a reason to steer clear of the firm. i think the fact they got a lot of shit for this makes them LESS likely than comparable firms to ever do something like it again.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've heard similar things about most of the firms discussed on this thread, with the exception of K&E being mentioned before as working associates like crazy. Any one else heard similarly?

I have a family friend at Dechert (NY office) who said that the really crazy work hours seems limited to corporate only in the past year or two because people have been leaving and they haven't started hiring until recently, and the other groups are busy and work hard, but the environment isn't cut throat like other places. Their no-offer and then hiring 3Ls from two years ago is shady, but did full offers this year on the last day so hopefully that trend will stick around.


Very interested in hearing about the environment at Dechert NY. Any idea what his "typical" hours might look like? Any other info is also greatly appreciated!


Don't know anything about Dechert hours, but do know two things. First, the firm keeps "weirdly" expanding and contracting, according to a contact in the industry (don't want to out myself, but he is pretty high-level and generally trustworthy on these things). The translation is: when Dechert decides your practice group isn't pulling its weight, it will just cut the entire group. Second, Dechert refused to give offers to like half of its rising 3Ls until January recently, while meanwhile it was interviewing other 3L candidates. This is all on ATL somewhere, but too lazy to look up the link (consequently, I might be off on the details, but not far enough off for this not to be terrifying).


i know everyone keeps harping on dehcert's "no-offer" scandal from a couple years ago, but after the extreme negative publicity that brought them do you really think they'd try pulling that stunt again? don't think so. not saying dechert is a wonderful place to work or anything (i actually have no ability to comment on whether it is or isn't), but i think we should stop bringing this one thing up as a reason to steer clear of the firm. i think the fact they got a lot of shit for this makes them LESS likely than comparable firms to ever do something like it again.


This is the same somewhat shaky logic that people at Latham use to explain why the partners are unlikely to lay off lots of junior associates in the future. Personally, I don't want the prospect of public shaming to be the only thing preventing management from acting horribly toward its employees. Maybe that's just me.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby quakeroats » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've heard similar things about most of the firms discussed on this thread, with the exception of K&E being mentioned before as working associates like crazy. Any one else heard similarly?

I have a family friend at Dechert (NY office) who said that the really crazy work hours seems limited to corporate only in the past year or two because people have been leaving and they haven't started hiring until recently, and the other groups are busy and work hard, but the environment isn't cut throat like other places. Their no-offer and then hiring 3Ls from two years ago is shady, but did full offers this year on the last day so hopefully that trend will stick around.

Very interested in hearing about the environment at Dechert NY. Any idea what his "typical" hours might look like? Any other info is also greatly appreciated!


Don't know anything about Dechert hours, but do know two things. First, the firm keeps "weirdly" expanding and contracting, according to a contact in the industry (don't want to out myself, but he is pretty high-level and generally trustworthy on these things). The translation is: when Dechert decides your practice group isn't pulling its weight, it will just cut the entire group. Second, Dechert refused to give offers to like half of its rising 3Ls until January recently, while meanwhile it was interviewing other 3L candidates. This is all on ATL somewhere, but too lazy to look up the link (consequently, I might be off on the details, but not far enough off for this not to be terrifying).


i know everyone keeps harping on dehcert's "no-offer" scandal from a couple years ago, but after the extreme negative publicity that brought them do you really think they'd try pulling that stunt again? don't think so. not saying dechert is a wonderful place to work or anything (i actually have no ability to comment on whether it is or isn't), but i think we should stop bringing this one thing up as a reason to steer clear of the firm. i think the fact they got a lot of shit for this makes them LESS likely than comparable firms to ever do something like it again.


This is the same somewhat shaky logic that people at Latham use to explain why the partners are unlikely to lay off lots of junior associates in the future. Personally, I don't want the prospect of public shaming to be the only thing preventing management from acting horribly toward its employees. Maybe that's just me.


To be fair, what prevents management at any other firm from laying off associates?

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby alabamabound » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:09 pm

Hard to say. My sense is there are a few firms that do care a bit more about their employees. Either that or perhaps they have a certain self-image that would be shattered if they engaged in really harsh lay-offs. Not sure this is a much better inhibition than fear of a public shaming though, so point taken.

(I am the anon above)

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:44 pm

how about Proskauer?

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:02 pm

alabamabound wrote:Hard to say. My sense is there are a few firms that do care a bit more about their employees. Either that or perhaps they have a certain self-image that would be shattered if they engaged in really harsh lay-offs. Not sure this is a much better inhibition than fear of a public shaming though, so point taken.

(I am the anon above)

What I've heard (take it with a grain of salt) is that some partnerships need to keep their PPP up every single year or the real rainmakers will bail. One way to accomplish this during a downturn is mass layoffs. Other firms have partners that are more committed to stay around long-term and would rather keep the firm intact and take the hit themselves rather than get rid of associates who might be able to produce a lot of value in a couple years when things pick up. Just me sense, as well, and obviously fear of getting bad press on ATL is a big factor.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:11 pm

What's the word on Mayer Brown Chicago?

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:46 am

Re: Cadwalader - Dennis Block just left for Greenberg Taurig

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby quakeroats » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:50 am

sunynp wrote:Re: Cadwalader - Dennis Block just left for Greenberg Taurig


That's well down the list of reasons to avoid Cadwalader.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:53 am

quakeroats wrote:
sunynp wrote:Re: Cadwalader - Dennis Block just left for Greenberg Taurig


That's well down the list of reasons to avoid Cadwalader.


I thought it might be an indication of the firm losing a rainmaker - no matter how much of an ass he is personally. He is going to join Bruce Zirinsky who left Cadwalader in January. Do they have people at Cadwalader who can bring in the business that Block has, or at least had? It sounds like Cadwalader is all about the money, if they lose a lot of business, won't that affect hiring of associates?

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:57 am

anything on Paul Hastings? Does it still no-offer to 25% of its SAs?

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:01 pm

sunynp wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
sunynp wrote:Re: Cadwalader - Dennis Block just left for Greenberg Taurig


That's well down the list of reasons to avoid Cadwalader.


I thought it might be an indication of the firm losing a rainmaker - no matter how much of an ass he is personally. He is going to join Bruce Zirinsky who left Cadwalader in January. Do they have people at Cadwalader who can bring in the business that Block has, or at least had? It sounds like Cadwalader is all about the money, if they lose a lot of business, won't that affect hiring of associates?


Cadwalader definitely won the prize for least pleasant CB. You'd think they'd at least make an effort to play against the stereotype at that stage in the game. Really nice offices though.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
sunynp wrote:Re: Cadwalader - Dennis Block just left for Greenberg Taurig


That's well down the list of reasons to avoid Cadwalader.


I thought it might be an indication of the firm losing a rainmaker - no matter how much of an ass he is personally. He is going to join Bruce Zirinsky who left Cadwalader in January. Do they have people at Cadwalader who can bring in the business that Block has, or at least had? It sounds like Cadwalader is all about the money, if they lose a lot of business, won't that affect hiring of associates?


Cadwalader definitely won the prize for least pleasant CB. You'd think they'd at least make an effort to play against the stereotype at that stage in the game. Really nice offices though.


What was unpleasant about the CB, if you don't mind me asking? I have one coming up so wanted to know what to expect.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:
quakeroats wrote:That's well down the list of reasons to avoid Cadwalader.


I thought it might be an indication of the firm losing a rainmaker - no matter how much of an ass he is personally. He is going to join Bruce Zirinsky who left Cadwalader in January. Do they have people at Cadwalader who can bring in the business that Block has, or at least had? It sounds like Cadwalader is all about the money, if they lose a lot of business, won't that affect hiring of associates?


Cadwalader definitely won the prize for least pleasant CB. You'd think they'd at least make an effort to play against the stereotype at that stage in the game. Really nice offices though.


What was unpleasant about the CB, if you don't mind me asking? I have one coming up so wanted to know what to expect.

Yeah I'm wondering this as well. I already had my CB and there wasn't anything unpleasant about it. It wasn't the greatest thing ever, but I'd hardly say it wasn't pleasant.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:how about Proskauer?


Terrible culture, defensive about their position with respect to other firms. I liked the people with whom I spoke, but they were very disparaging about firms ranked better. A firm that can acknowledge their competition and distinguish themselves positively is admirable, but trashing other firms is not.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:how about Proskauer?


Terrible culture, defensive about their position with respect to other firms. I liked the people with whom I spoke, but they were very disparaging about firms ranked better. A firm that can acknowledge their competition and distinguish themselves positively is admirable, but trashing other firms is not.


I loved the people I met, mainly those I met at the cocktail reception. I did not hear anything about other firms. I got a good vibe from all the people in the office, and people seemed genuine.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:anything on Paul Hastings? Does it still no-offer to 25% of its SAs?

That was just in 2009, when lots of firms were no-offering summers. The past two years have been back at 100% (or close to it).

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Renzo » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:51 pm

quakeroats wrote:
sunynp wrote:Re: Cadwalader - Dennis Block just left for Greenberg Taurig


That's well down the list of reasons to avoid Cadwalader.


I strongly disagree. Cadwalader has some other problems, but Block is a legal industry legend when it comes to thuggish, nasty firm partners. He's so notoriously difficult to work under that he's like a fucking cartoon of himself. And I don't doubt that he can still make it rain, but he's 70+ years old, and Bear Stearns was one of his big-fish clients, so I'm not sure that he's quite the catch that Greenberg thinks he is.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:how about Proskauer?


Terrible culture, defensive about their position with respect to other firms. I liked the people with whom I spoke, but they were very disparaging about firms ranked better. A firm that can acknowledge their competition and distinguish themselves positively is admirable, but trashing other firms is not.


have a lawyer friend who knows several of their associates. told me it's a sweatshop firm and her friends are unhappy there.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:20 pm

Where is the information about Orrick's financial health coming from? Is there anything you can point to that supports that they aren't doing well?

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Where is the information about Orrick's financial health coming from? Is there anything you can point to that supports that they aren't doing well?


Columbia career services told us that they slashed a bunch of interview slots from last year's OCI to this year's.

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Re: Firms to avoid

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Where is the information about Orrick's financial health coming from? Is there anything you can point to that supports that they aren't doing well?


Columbia career services told us that they slashed a bunch of interview slots from last year's OCI to this year's.


They pulled out of OCI at NU entirely.




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