Firms to avoid

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
denimchickn
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:57 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby denimchickn » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also wondering if we can expand this into Atlanta firms
I know K&S has the sweatshop reputation, but beyond that...?


Also interested in this...

Anonymous User
Posts: 273590
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:03 pm

rayiner wrote:
columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.


In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.



Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.

User avatar
Naked Dude
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Naked Dude » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:33 pm

@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?

User avatar
quakeroats
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby quakeroats » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:03 pm

Where's our megapost?

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:04 pm

Naked Dude wrote:@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?


You hire a DC firm to do things like represent you before federal regulators, lobby congress, keep track of changes in the law, etc. Lots of the lit winds up being related to federal agencies. They also do other stuff, even corporate transactions, but the practice that draws lots of lawyers to DC is just fundamentally different from the practice that draws lots of lawyers to, say, NYC.

As you might imagine, those services in DC are valuable, but the fees will never be as high as for multi-million (or billion) corporate transactions, bet the company securities litigation, etc.

User avatar
vamedic03
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:50 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:07 pm

Naked Dude wrote:@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?


Regulatory (e.g., Food and Drug, FCC, etc.), lobbying, DC-centric litigation, etc. Plus, transactional and litigation work that requires specialized regulatory knowledge (life sciences transactional work, insurance-policy holder representation, etc.).

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.


In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.



Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.


There is one huge caveat here: Kirkland is basically a NYC firm, as far as hours expected, how you're worked, etc., and the culture is very "entreprenurial" (i.e., you'd better be ready to eat what you kill, and that includes as an associate rattling down work). It's a great environment for people who will flourish with that kind of self-directedness (and who don't mind Cravath-and-sometimes-Wachtell-style-hours,) but it's absolutely not for everyone.

Also a caveat re: Mayer - if you have the creds to be looking to do app lit, they're the only (respectable) shop in town.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273590
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:37 pm

I would avoid Baker Mackenzie. It's a mega firm running on high-volume (rather than high profile) work with each office running as an independent fiefdom. High leverage to boot.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273590
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:53 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.


There is one huge caveat here: Kirkland is basically a NYC firm, as far as hours expected, how you're worked, etc., and the culture is very "entreprenurial" (i.e., you'd better be ready to eat what you kill, and that includes as an associate rattling down work). It's a great environment for people who will flourish with that kind of self-directedness (and who don't mind Cravath-and-sometimes-Wachtell-style-hours,) but it's absolutely not for everyone.

Also a caveat re: Mayer - if you have the creds to be looking to do app lit, they're the only (respectable) shop in town.



Agreed (which is why I picked #2 on that list).

Re: Mayer and Appellate Lit - I agree. All of these firms have their specialities. For example, if I wanted to do trusts & estates work, I would have totally gone to McDermott over K&E or Sidley (or even Cravath in NYC). MWE is by far the best T&E firm in the country.

GMVarun
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby GMVarun » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:59 am

thesealocust wrote: bet the company securities litigation, etc.


I see this phrase thrown around quite a bit -- "bet the firm/company" x type of litigation. Can you explain what this means? I'm curious, thanks.

User avatar
unc0mm0n1
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.


In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.



Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.


So Skadden Chicago sucks?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273590
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:22 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.


In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.



Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.


So Skadden Chicago sucks?



Please see the bolded.

Figuring out where the top satellite offices (Skadden, Latham, Jones Day) fit into the Chicago hierarchy is more difficult and practice specific.

User avatar
PKSebben
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby PKSebben » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:32 am

GMVarun wrote:
thesealocust wrote: bet the company securities litigation, etc.


I see this phrase thrown around quite a bit -- "bet the firm/company" x type of litigation. Can you explain what this means? I'm curious, thanks.


litigation where a poor outcome will end or significantly weaken the company.

seriouslyinformative
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby seriouslyinformative » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:00 am

quakeroats wrote:Where's our megapost?


Gonna have to wait until after the bar exam. Sorry folks. Should've started studying... oh... before July 4th...

Anonymous User
Posts: 273590
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:50 am

thesealocust wrote:
Naked Dude wrote:@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?


You hire a DC firm to do things like represent you before federal regulators, lobby congress, keep track of changes in the law, etc. Lots of the lit winds up being related to federal agencies. They also do other stuff, even corporate transactions, but the practice that draws lots of lawyers to DC is just fundamentally different from the practice that draws lots of lawyers to, say, NYC.

As you might imagine, those services in DC are valuable, but the fees will never be as high as for multi-million (or billion) corporate transactions, bet the company securities litigation, etc.

One of the selling points for the growing NYC practice now is the connection to its DC practice. Corporations can go to Covington and get all their corporate, litigation, and regulatory work handled in one place. This is part of how they're growing the NYC practice and why it's going to be a good place to work going forward. Recently they've stolen a couple of high-dollar corporate contacts recently from other V10 firms by offering this whole package. Going forward this trend will likely continue as they keep trying to expand their NYC office and in particular their corporate and IP practices.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273590
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:40 pm

At the other end of the spectrum Vault announced its "Best firms to work for " today. Note, not necessarily indicative of a particular office

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/rankings/individual?rankingId1=27&rankingId2=27&rankings=2&regionId=0&rankingYear=2012

VAULT RANKINGS


2012
RANK 2011
RANK

CHANGE
FIRM
SCORE
LOCATION
1 2 Williams & Connolly LLP 8.639 Washington, DC
2 1 Ropes & Gray LLP 8.578 Boston, MA
3 NR Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP 8.195 New York, NY
4 NR Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo P.C. 8.184 Boston, MA
5 NR Foley Hoag LLP 8.140 Boston, MA
6 12 Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP 8.117 Los Angeles, CA
7 NR Baker, Donelson, Bearman, Caldwell & Berkowitz, PC 8.086 Memphis, TN
8 NR Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler LLP 8.078 New York, NY
9 NR Dewey & LeBoeuf LLP 8.055 New York, NY
10 NR Fish & Richardson P.C. 8.024 Boston, MA
11 NR Patton Boggs LLP 8.007 Washington, DC
12 13 Sutherland Asbill & Brennan LLP 7.998 Washington, DC
13 10 Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates 7.994 New York, NY
14 3 Morrison & Foerster LLP 7.972 San Francisco, CA
15 NR Jenner & Block LLP 7.958 Chicago, IL
16 11 Vinson & Elkins LLP 7.948 Houston, TX
17 15 Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP 7.938 New York, NY
18 NR Latham & Watkins LLP 7.934 New York, NY
19 19 Debevoise & Plimpton LLP 7.932 New York, NY
20 14 Carlton Fields 7.914 Tampa, FL

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:44 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:(a) I know former Covington associates who were laid off.


This comment piqued my curiosity when I saw it, so I did some digging.

banned.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18425
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby bk1 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:50 pm

But I thought he swore he would NEVER COME BACK! :lol:

JusticeJackson
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby JusticeJackson » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:59 pm

.
Last edited by JusticeJackson on Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
5ky
Posts: 6397
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:10 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby 5ky » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:16 pm

Damn, owned.

User avatar
Cavalier
Posts: 1994
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Cavalier » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:16 pm

JusticeJackson wrote:what is alting?

Posting with more than one account. An "alt" is an alternate account. TLS does not allow them, ever.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby Grizz » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:43 pm

Cavalier wrote:
JusticeJackson wrote:what is alting?

Posting with more than one account. An "alt" is an alternate account. TLS does not allow them, ever.

Sure they don't.

User avatar
IrwinM.Fletcher
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:55 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:50 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Where's our megapost?


Gonna have to wait until after the bar exam. Sorry folks. Should've started studying... oh... before July 4th...


This is really a shame, I was so looking forward to a comprehensive list of firm weaknesses in the world's largest legal market from someone who hasn't actually started as an associate yet.

User avatar
DeSimone
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:49 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby DeSimone » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:55 pm

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:
seriouslyinformative wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Where's our megapost?


Gonna have to wait until after the bar exam. Sorry folks. Should've started studying... oh... before July 4th...


This is really a shame, I was so looking forward to a comprehensive list of firm weaknesses in the world's largest legal market from someone who hasn't actually started as an associate yet.

He's also posted much more helpful and constructive information than you itt.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8448
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Firms to avoid

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:56 pm

DeSimone wrote:He's also posted much more helpful and constructive information than you itt.


He was helpful and informative in the other era too. Then once people realized what firm he was at he skipped the light fantastic out of town.
Last edited by thesealocust on Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.