So, in other words, the ship be sinking?Renzo wrote:No, it really seems to work for them. They continue to draw in megarainmakers with big business portfolios. You just don't want to be one of those partners who suddenly finds that all his mega-cases settled, or his industry died, or his big client merged and went with another firm. They'll slit your throat and sell your corpse to science, rather than take a smaller paycheck.TheFriendlyBarber wrote: So, in other words, the ship be sinking?
Firms to avoid Forum
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Re: Firms to avoid
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Re: Firms to avoid
Anyone know how the Boston firms hold up?
Specifically Ropes, Nixon Peabody, Choate Hall and the Foleys (Folies?)?
Specifically Ropes, Nixon Peabody, Choate Hall and the Foleys (Folies?)?
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Re: Firms to avoid
Kirkland is a meritocracy. Associates are rewarded for their good and hard work in the form of higher compensation and more responsibilities. This tends to breed a different attitude among associates than at other firms. In my experience, my classmates at K&E have been nothing but friendly, cordial, and amazing people. We never compete with each other for work (there's more than enough to go around), and there are so many partners available that really you're just cultivating relationships with different people. In terms of bonuses, associates are ranked, but only within broad categories (i.e., top of class, above class, with class, and below class). It doesn't really lead to competitiveness because it's rare for associates to earn "above class" (and maybe one will get "top of class") and it's also rare for associates to receive "below class" (that's basically when you should start looking for another job anyways). Moreover, typically, if you do hard work and are competent, making non-equity partner is pretty much automatic--it's not a zero-sum game. It's the jump to equity that almost no one makes. But by the time you're in the running for that, your associate class is typically down to two or three superstars who are left. And yes, that might be competitive, but it would be similarly competitive for any senior associate at any other firm in the running for partnership.
That said, don't confuse "friendly" with "lifestyle firm." K&E is work hard, play hard. And you can expect to work very, very hard.
That said, don't confuse "friendly" with "lifestyle firm." K&E is work hard, play hard. And you can expect to work very, very hard.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Firms to avoid
Cravath also made some very short-sighted decisions in the wake of the financial crisis. The problem is that the Cravath model doesn't allow for partner-track laterals. Thus, if attrition increases or if you have layoffs, it's hard to fill in gaps, and you can't just bump up junior associates in terms of seniority. Cravath not only laid off a bunch of associates, but when the economy improved and the lateral market/non-law-firm job market heated up, a lot of associates jumped ship. They jumped ship because, after the layoffs and the improved economy, they found themselves overworked but not compensated accordingly.rayiner wrote:Cravath is in a decline in the sense it's now clearly second to wlrk and a SullCrom peer, as opposed to arguably #1 as it used to be. That has more to do with the rise of wlrk and s&c's insanely good execution this decade (propped up by the GS relationship) then a weakening of the fundamentals at Cravath.
So the problem is that the firm has talent gaps, has no way of really filling them, has terrible morale because no one is making partner (yeah, people still make partner at V5s), and is making short-sighted moves that are pushing them further down. I don't know of things will change. But in my view, Cravath is solidly inferior to S&C. In fact, I would take almost any other V10 except Skadden, Weil, and maybe Covington above Cravath.
- quakeroats
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Re: Firms to avoid
Why's that?Anonymous User wrote: In fact, I would take almost any other V10 except Skadden, Weil, and maybe Covington above Cravath.
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- quakeroats
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Re: Firms to avoid
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/07/06/ ... st-lawyer/Anonymous User wrote:The problem is that the Cravath model doesn't allow for partner-track laterals.
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Re: Firms to avoid
This decision is enormous, enormous news for Cravath. They've probably done it like 3 times ever, and once was recently a BK guy from Skadden at the height of the crisis. That anonymous poster also meant partner-track laterals, i.e. mid-level and senior associates, which Cravath at least claims to not hire at all, rather than partner laterals (who they also claim to never hire). It's actually a point the firm tries to sell: the only way in is through the front door, they boast about not hiring laterals.quakeroats wrote:http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/07/06/ ... st-lawyer/Anonymous User wrote:The problem is that the Cravath model doesn't allow for partner-track laterals.
As for why that anon said (s)he wouldn't work for Cravath over most other V10s, I can provide some context. Cravath has a great reputation and interesting, professional people. But it also has a well deserved reputation for working its associates more consistently and in a more demanding fashion than basically every firm other than Wachtell. It likely at one point enjoyed a reputation that exceeded that of places like S&C, DPW, STB, Cleary, etc. but that's not true any more. It's probably not worse, but signing up to work there basically guarantees you longer hours. While there are going to be associates at every other V10 who pull hours longer than attorneys at Cravath, it's not quite as institutionalized.
And the point about mistakes during the crisis is pretty on point. A partner there has admitted as much to me in person. Cravath saw its PPP fall 24% or so in one year. Still a profitable firm, still a prestigious firm, still a place that will launch incredible careers and train talented lawyers: but there's almost nothing you can point to that would make it a better choice than another V10ish NYC firm, unless you found it a particularly strong fit personality wise.
- quakeroats
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Re: Firms to avoid
He excluded Skadden, Weil and Covington. Any idea why?Anonymous User wrote: As for why that anon said (s)he wouldn't work for Cravath over most other V10s, I can provide some context. Cravath has a great reputation and interesting, professional people. But it also has a well deserved reputation for working its associates more consistently and in a more demanding fashion than basically every firm other than Wachtell. It likely at one point enjoyed a reputation that exceeded that of places like S&C, DPW, STB, Cleary, etc. but that's not true any more. It's probably not worse, but signing up to work there basically guarantees you longer hours. While there are going to be associates at every other V10 who pull hours longer than attorneys at Cravath, it's not quite as institutionalized.
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Re: Firms to avoid
Skadden is inconsistent, it's about 4-5 times bigger than the other V10 names. You could get lost there and not all of their practice areas are top-notch the way more narrowly focused firms are. Put another way, it's probably a better firm than it is firm to start your career.quakeroats wrote:He excluded Skadden, Weil and Covington. Any idea why?Anonymous User wrote: As for why that anon said (s)he wouldn't work for Cravath over most other V10s, I can provide some context. Cravath has a great reputation and interesting, professional people. But it also has a well deserved reputation for working its associates more consistently and in a more demanding fashion than basically every firm other than Wachtell. It likely at one point enjoyed a reputation that exceeded that of places like S&C, DPW, STB, Cleary, etc. but that's not true any more. It's probably not worse, but signing up to work there basically guarantees you longer hours. While there are going to be associates at every other V10 who pull hours longer than attorneys at Cravath, it's not quite as institutionalized.
Weil has had a lot of issues lately and is struggling. Its practice groups taken as a whole also look slightly weaker than many other V10 firms.
Covington is just a different firm. Its business model is substantially less profitable than the others, its presence in NYC is nearly de minimis, etc. It doesn't surprise me that anybody considering a V10 NYC job wouldn't spend much time looking at Covington.
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Re: Firms to avoid
I am interested in Weil information too.
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Re: Firms to avoid
Class of 2011 is starting in January. 'Nuff said.sunynp wrote:I am interested in Weil information too.
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Re: Firms to avoid
That would be their loss then. Covington cares about its reputation and avoided the mass layoffs or no-offers other firms pulled during the downturn. They're less leveraged which means higher chances of making partner if you make it through the selection process. Their name brings in high-end clientele and they're trying to gradually grow their NYC presence which means more job opportunities for those getting in now.Anonymous User wrote:Covington is just a different firm. Its business model is substantially less profitable than the others, its presence in NYC is nearly de minimis, etc. It doesn't surprise me that anybody considering a V10 NYC job wouldn't spend much time looking at Covington.
The political culture there is too liberal for my tastes but it's a great place for the typical NYC type if they can actually get a job there.
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Re: Firms to avoid
(a) I know former Covington associates who were laid off.Covington cares about its reputation and avoided the mass layoffs or no-offers other firms pulled during the downturn.
(b) They instituted salary freezes.
(c) They basically lowballed associates on bonuses.
(d) The institutional identity is not as strong as people think it is. The CA office, for instance, is just a bunch of Heller Ehrman refugees. The DC office now has a bunch of Howrey refugees.
Anyway, I'm not gonna debate whether Covington is or is not a good place. I'm just saying that some people revere it for mysterious reasons. And I do think the firm is more stable than most places simply because of its lack of aggressiveness. While you won't be highly rewarded in a good economy at Covington, neither will you be as harshly punished in a bad economy.
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- beachbum
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Re: Firms to avoid
Does anyone have info about the larger St. Louis firms? Or general info about firms like Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Armstrong Teasdale, Husch Blackwell, et al?
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Re: Firms to avoid
Also wondering if we can expand this into Atlanta firms
I know K&S has the sweatshop reputation, but beyond that...?
I know K&S has the sweatshop reputation, but beyond that...?
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Re: Firms to avoid
Watch out for Nixon.Aston2412 wrote:Anyone know how the Boston firms hold up?
Specifically Ropes, Nixon Peabody, Choate Hall and the Foleys (Folies?)?
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Re: Firms to avoid
Specifics?timbs4339 wrote:Watch out for Nixon.Aston2412 wrote:Anyone know how the Boston firms hold up?
Specifically Ropes, Nixon Peabody, Choate Hall and the Foleys (Folies?)?
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Re: Firms to avoid
Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
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Re: Firms to avoid
Husch kind of has the "sweatshop" reputation in St. Louis big law, but they probably all are like that. I've also heard stories about rude partners and such, again something probably common at a lot of firms. Thompson Coburn seems to have slashed hiring recently.beachbum wrote:Does anyone have info about the larger St. Louis firms? Or general info about firms like Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Armstrong Teasdale, Husch Blackwell, et al?
I don't know/haven't heard much about the other firms.
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Re: Firms to avoid
You should go ahead and start a new thread for this query, so it doesn't get mixed up with the firms to avoid conversation.columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
I'm not sure I have any good answers for you, but am interested in what others have to say.
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Re: Firms to avoid
In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
Last edited by rayiner on Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- bjsesq
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Re: Firms to avoid
Sidley's uptick in hiring indicates they should be doing at least decent, amirite?rayiner wrote:In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market.columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
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Re: Firms to avoid
I think they're muddling along just fine, and I wouldn't worry about something Heller-like happening at Sidley. Just given the option, I have no idea why anyone would choose Sidley over Kirkland.bjsesq wrote:Sidley's uptick in hiring indicates they should be doing at least decent, amirite?rayiner wrote:In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market.columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
- quakeroats
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Re: Firms to avoid
They support the Chicago Symphony (Douglas is on the board too). Duh.rayiner wrote:In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.columbia86 wrote:Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.
Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.
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Re: Firms to avoid
Also interested in this...Anonymous User wrote:Also wondering if we can expand this into Atlanta firms
I know K&S has the sweatshop reputation, but beyond that...?
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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