Firms to avoid Forum

[denimchickn]

Also wondering if we can expand this into Atlanta firms
I know K&S has the sweatshop reputation, but beyond that...?

Also interested in this...

[Anonymous User]

Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.

In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.

Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.

[Naked Dude]

@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?

[quakeroats]

Where's our megapost?

[thesealocust]

@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?

You hire a DC firm to do things like represent you before federal regulators, lobby congress, keep track of changes in the law, etc. Lots of the lit winds up being related to federal agencies. They also do other stuff, even corporate transactions, but the practice that draws lots of lawyers to DC is just fundamentally different from the practice that draws lots of lawyers to, say, NYC.

As you might imagine, those services in DC are valuable, but the fees will never be as high as for multi-million (or billion) corporate transactions, bet the company securities litigation, etc.

[vamedic03]

@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?

Regulatory (e.g., Food and Drug, FCC, etc.), lobbying, DC-centric litigation, etc. Plus, transactional and litigation work that requires specialized regulatory knowledge (life sciences transactional work, insurance-policy holder representation, etc.).

[ToTransferOrNot]

Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.

In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.

Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.

There is one huge caveat here: Kirkland is basically a NYC firm, as far as hours expected, how you're worked, etc., and the culture is very "entreprenurial" (i.e., you'd better be ready to eat what you kill, and that includes as an associate rattling down work). It's a great environment for people who will flourish with that kind of self-directedness (and who don't mind Cravath-and-sometimes-Wachtell-style-hours,) but it's absolutely not for everyone.

Also a caveat re: Mayer - if you have the creds to be looking to do app lit, they're the only (respectable) shop in town.

[Anonymous User]

I would avoid Baker Mackenzie. It's a mega firm running on high-volume (rather than high profile) work with each office running as an independent fiefdom. High leverage to boot.

[Anonymous User]

Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.

There is one huge caveat here: Kirkland is basically a NYC firm, as far as hours expected, how you're worked, etc., and the culture is very "entreprenurial" (i.e., you'd better be ready to eat what you kill, and that includes as an associate rattling down work). It's a great environment for people who will flourish with that kind of self-directedness (and who don't mind Cravath-and-sometimes-Wachtell-style-hours,) but it's absolutely not for everyone.

Also a caveat re: Mayer - if you have the creds to be looking to do app lit, they're the only (respectable) shop in town.

Agreed (which is why I picked #2 on that list).

Re: Mayer and Appellate Lit - I agree. All of these firms have their specialities. For example, if I wanted to do trusts & estates work, I would have totally gone to McDermott over K&E or Sidley (or even Cravath in NYC). MWE is by far the best T&E firm in the country.

[GMVarun]

bet the company securities litigation, etc.

I see this phrase thrown around quite a bit -- "bet the firm/company" x type of litigation. Can you explain what this means? I'm curious, thanks.

[unc0mm0n1]

Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.

In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.

Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.

So Skadden Chicago sucks?

[Anonymous User]

Not to diverge from the topic at hand, but anyone care to identify the most desirable firms in each major market. Rationale should go beyond surface analysis (rankings) and take into consideration the variables that differ from firm to firm.

Selfishly, an emphasis on Chicago would be appreciated.

In Chicago: Kirkland. They're the only ones that are really doing well right now in that market. People love Sidley for some reason, but I don't see the magic, and they did some epic deferrals.

Chicago is very easy (for Chicago based firms):

1. Kirkland
2. Sidley
3. Mayer or Winston
-Mayer used to be the clear winner, but has been in decline since 07
4. Jenner or McDermott
-Jenner for lit, MWE for anything else
5. Everyone else

Other than Kirkland, none of these firms are doing particularly well though.

So Skadden Chicago sucks?

Please see the bolded.

Figuring out where the top satellite offices (Skadden, Latham, Jones Day) fit into the Chicago hierarchy is more difficult and practice specific.

[PKSebben]

bet the company securities litigation, etc.

I see this phrase thrown around quite a bit -- "bet the firm/company" x type of litigation. Can you explain what this means? I'm curious, thanks.

litigation where a poor outcome will end or significantly weaken the company.

[seriouslyinformative]

Where's our megapost?

Gonna have to wait until after the bar exam. Sorry folks. Should've started studying... oh... before July 4th...

[Anonymous User]

@ GTL--I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of different markets. What is "DC Practice"? Just more conservative uh...operations?

You hire a DC firm to do things like represent you before federal regulators, lobby congress, keep track of changes in the law, etc. Lots of the lit winds up being related to federal agencies. They also do other stuff, even corporate transactions, but the practice that draws lots of lawyers to DC is just fundamentally different from the practice that draws lots of lawyers to, say, NYC.

As you might imagine, those services in DC are valuable, but the fees will never be as high as for multi-million (or billion) corporate transactions, bet the company securities litigation, etc.

One of the selling points for the growing NYC practice now is the connection to its DC practice. Corporations can go to Covington and get all their corporate, litigation, and regulatory work handled in one place. This is part of how they're growing the NYC practice and why it's going to be a good place to work going forward. Recently they've stolen a couple of high-dollar corporate contacts recently from other V10 firms by offering this whole package. Going forward this trend will likely continue as they keep trying to expand their NYC office and in particular their corporate and IP practices.

[Anonymous User]

At the other end of the spectrum Vault announced its "Best firms to work for " today. Note, not necessarily indicative of a particular office

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/ran ... gYear=2012

VAULT RANKINGS


2012
RANK 2011
RANK

CHANGE
FIRM
SCORE
LOCATION
1 2 Williams & Connolly LLP 8.639 Washington, DC
2 1 Ropes & Gray LLP 8.578 Boston, MA
3 NR Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP 8.195 New York, NY
4 NR Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo P.C. 8.184 Boston, MA
5 NR foley hoag LLP 8.140 Boston, MA
6 12 Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP 8.117 Los Angeles, CA
7 NR Baker, Donelson, Bearman, Caldwell & Berkowitz, PC 8.086 Memphis, TN
8 NR Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler LLP 8.078 New York, NY
9 NR Dewey & LeBoeuf LLP 8.055 New York, NY
10 NR Fish & Richardson P.C. 8.024 Boston, MA
11 NR Patton Boggs LLP 8.007 Washington, DC
12 13 Sutherland Asbill & Brennan LLP 7.998 Washington, DC
13 10 Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates 7.994 New York, NY
14 3 Morrison & Foerster LLP 7.972 San Francisco, CA
15 NR Jenner & Block LLP 7.958 Chicago, IL
16 11 Vinson & Elkins LLP 7.948 Houston, TX
17 15 Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP 7.938 New York, NY
18 NR Latham & Watkins LLP 7.934 New York, NY
19 19 Debevoise & Plimpton LLP 7.932 New York, NY
20 14 Carlton Fields 7.914 Tampa, FL

[vanwinkle]

(a) I know former Covington associates who were laid off.

This comment piqued my curiosity when I saw it, so I did some digging.

banned.

[bk1]

But I thought he swore he would NEVER COME BACK!

[JusticeJackson]

.

[5ky]

Damn, owned.

[Cavalier]

what is alting?

Posting with more than one account. An "alt" is an alternate account. TLS does not allow them, ever.

[Grizz]

what is alting?

Posting with more than one account. An "alt" is an alternate account. TLS does not allow them, ever.

Sure they don't.

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

Where's our megapost?

Gonna have to wait until after the bar exam. Sorry folks. Should've started studying... oh... before July 4th...

This is really a shame, I was so looking forward to a comprehensive list of firm weaknesses in the world's largest legal market from someone who hasn't actually started as an associate yet.

[DeSimone]

Where's our megapost?

Gonna have to wait until after the bar exam. Sorry folks. Should've started studying... oh... before July 4th...

This is really a shame, I was so looking forward to a comprehensive list of firm weaknesses in the world's largest legal market from someone who hasn't actually started as an associate yet.

He's also posted much more helpful and constructive information than you itt.

[thesealocust]

He's also posted much more helpful and constructive information than you itt.

He was helpful and informative in the other era too. Then once people realized what firm he was at he skipped the light fantastic out of town.