Which markets generally require ties?

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Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:39 am

Soon-to-be 1L at UPenn. I would like DC and have significant ties there from my current job, but I know it is brutal. San Fran is my second choice, but I have no ties at all there. From a very small market in the southeast with very strong ties across the southeast (Dad is a lawyer). My fiance hates cold weather and wants a yard (not helpful). Sadly though, I do not want the south. So, based on my order of preference:

1) DC-how much can ties help?
2) San Fran-are ties needed here?
-my interest has to do with cybersecurity (no IP background though) and living in paradise; no ties
3) Boston, LA-no ties to either
4) Atlanta, New Orleans-strong ties in both; understand NOLA isn't BigLaw
5) Philadelphia, New York, Chicago-school in Philly; current employment in NYC; no ties in Chicago

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:Soon-to-be 1L at UPenn. I would like DC and have significant ties there from my current job, but I know it is brutal. San Fran is my second choice, but I have no ties at all there. From a very small market in the southeast with very strong ties across the southeast (Dad is a lawyer). My fiance hates cold weather and wants a yard (not helpful). Sadly though, I do not want the south. So, based on my order of preference:

1) DC-how much can ties help?
2) San Fran-are ties needed here?
-my interest has to do with cybersecurity (no IP background though) and living in paradise; no ties
3) Boston, LA-no ties to either
4) Atlanta, New Orleans-strong ties in both; understand NOLA isn't BigLaw
5) Philadelphia, New York, Chicago-school in Philly; current employment in NYC; no ties in Chicago
I am from the Bay Area and working in DC;SF and DC were my two main markets for interviews.

DC-- I think every OCI asked me some form of "Why DC" as did many of my callbacks. It has also come up occasionally at my firm social events. That said, I don't think they matter a ton because it's DC and people come from all over to work here. What ties you already have are probably sufficient. Also, DC has a rep for being brutal, but I think that's only in relation to NYC. Class sizes this summer are generally between 50%-100% bigger than the prior year for the bigger firms. (General anecdotal info from my firm and friends at Latham, Hogan, Wilmer, JonesDay. Our hiring partner made a comment the other day that suggested this was his/her general perception too).

SF-- Seems to demand much stronger ties and is a much smaller legal job market. Be sure to include SV in your research and bid lists. There is a fair amount of non-IP hiring down there, ESP for transactional type stuff-- tax, structured financing, etc.

It is gorgeous out there, but if your fiancée doesn't like the cold, SF may not be a great place. No it never snows, but it is a breezy place and can be drizzly and rainy for much of the winter. And Mark Twain's quote about SF summers also has a grain of truth. Spring & Fall though: No place better on earth.

SF--

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Soon-to-be 1L at UPenn. I would like DC and have significant ties there from my current job, but I know it is brutal. San Fran is my second choice, but I have no ties at all there. From a very small market in the southeast with very strong ties across the southeast (Dad is a lawyer). My fiance hates cold weather and wants a yard (not helpful). Sadly though, I do not want the south. So, based on my order of preference:

1) DC-how much can ties help?
2) San Fran-are ties needed here?
-my interest has to do with cybersecurity (no IP background though) and living in paradise; no ties
3) Boston, LA-no ties to either
4) Atlanta, New Orleans-strong ties in both; understand NOLA isn't BigLaw
5) Philadelphia, New York, Chicago-school in Philly; current employment in NYC; no ties in Chicago
I am from the Bay Area and working in DC;SF and DC were my two main markets for interviews.

DC-- I think every OCI asked me some form of "Why DC" as did many of my callbacks. It has also come up occasionally at my firm social events. That said, I don't think they matter a ton because it's DC and people come from all over to work here. What ties you already have are probably sufficient. Also, DC has a rep for being brutal, but I think that's only in relation to NYC. Class sizes this summer are generally between 50%-100% bigger than the prior year for the bigger firms. (General anecdotal info from my firm and friends at Latham, Hogan, Wilmer, JonesDay. Our hiring partner made a comment the other day that suggested this was his/her general perception too).

SF-- Seems to demand much stronger ties and is a much smaller legal job market. Be sure to include SV in your research and bid lists. There is a fair amount of non-IP hiring down there, ESP for transactional type stuff-- tax, structured financing, etc.

It is gorgeous out there, but if your fiancée doesn't like the cold, SF may not be a great place. No it never snows, but it is a breezy place and can be drizzly and rainy for much of the winter. And Mark Twain's quote about SF summers also has a grain of truth. Spring & Fall though: No place better on earth.

SF--


Bump.

Anyone else? Agree/disagree? I hear Boston requires ties. What about LA?

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Bronte
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:36 pm

All markets except NYC and DC generally require the articulation of some ties, from what I have read on TLS, but it's mostly about having a short, well-prepared answer that doesn't necessarily involve growing up there. Chicago is probably the next lowest on the list in terms of its firms' demand for the articulation of ties.

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beachbum
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby beachbum » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:46 pm

Not to hijack your thread, but what constitutes ties to Chicago? Does one have to have direct ties to the city, or are ties to the Midwest good enough? Specifically, I have life-long ties to another Midwestern city (STL), but no real connection to Chicago itself (other than a couple friends). Will this suffice, or should I be looking elsewhere?

Edit: And the fiance is from Illinois (but not Chicago), if that counts.

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Bronte
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Bronte » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:49 pm

beachbum wrote:Not to hijack your thread, but what constitutes ties to Chicago? Does one have to have direct ties to the city, or are ties to the Midwest good enough? Specifically, I have life-long ties to another Midwestern city (STL), but no real connection to Chicago itself (other than a couple friends). Will this suffice, or should I be looking elsewhere?


From the people I know that are applying to Chicago, I think being from the Midwest is ties enough. Just have a good, concise response, although they'll probably just infer your ties from your home town. For the most part, again from what I've read, they just wanna see that you don't squirm when asked.

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law1931
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby law1931 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:51 am

I've heard that SF/SV you generally need ties.

Does anyone know if ties to the Bay Area and Orange County enough to convey an interest in working in LA?

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby bdubs » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:55 am

What about being from the West Coast for CA firms? I am originally from Seattle, but the legal market in the PNW is pretty small. Would CA firms view my West Coast roots as sufficient?

I have lived on the East Coast for quite a while (undergrad and work) and am going to school in Chicago.

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RVP11
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:41 am

bdubs wrote:What about being from the West Coast for CA firms? I am originally from Seattle, but the legal market in the PNW is pretty small. Would CA firms view my West Coast roots as sufficient?


Probably. At least I know multiple people from the PNW who did fine with Bay Area firms.

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:31 pm

What about LA?

So far, this threat seems to be indicating that the only market you DON'T need strong ties to is NYC. If so, where the hell do people from the south work if they don't want NYC???

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Citizen Genet » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What about LA?

So far, this threat seems to be indicating that the only market you DON'T need strong ties to is NYC. If so, where the hell do people from the south work if they don't want NYC???


Atlanta, Jacksonville, Raleigh, Richmond, Memphis, Dallas, Austin

de5igual
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby de5igual » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What about LA?

So far, this threat seems to be indicating that the only market you DON'T need strong ties to is NYC. If so, where the hell do people from the south work if they don't want NYC???


the south?

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:13 pm

I did not grow up in the bay area, but after I started college my family moved out there and now my father works in silicon valley. I spent a few summers there during college (including one summer where I worked a menial job) as well as return there to visit my family. Are these good enough ties? Most people are saying ties means you grew up there or your SO has a job there/is from there. I have neither, so...

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YourCaptain
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Soon-to-be 1L at UPenn. I would like DC and have significant ties there from my current job, but I know it is brutal. San Fran is my second choice, but I have no ties at all there. From a very small market in the southeast with very strong ties across the southeast (Dad is a lawyer). My fiance hates cold weather and wants a yard (not helpful). Sadly though, I do not want the south. So, based on my order of preference:

1) DC-how much can ties help?
2) San Fran-are ties needed here?
-my interest has to do with cybersecurity (no IP background though) and living in paradise; no ties
3) Boston, LA-no ties to either
4) Atlanta, New Orleans-strong ties in both; understand NOLA isn't BigLaw
5) Philadelphia, New York, Chicago-school in Philly; current employment in NYC; no ties in Chicago
I am from the Bay Area and working in DC;SF and DC were my two main markets for interviews.

DC-- I think every OCI asked me some form of "Why DC" as did many of my callbacks. It has also come up occasionally at my firm social events. That said, I don't think they matter a ton because it's DC and people come from all over to work here. What ties you already have are probably sufficient. Also, DC has a rep for being brutal, but I think that's only in relation to NYC. Class sizes this summer are generally between 50%-100% bigger than the prior year for the bigger firms. (General anecdotal info from my firm and friends at Latham, Hogan, Wilmer, JonesDay. Our hiring partner made a comment the other day that suggested this was his/her general perception too).

SF-- Seems to demand much stronger ties and is a much smaller legal job market. Be sure to include SV in your research and bid lists. There is a fair amount of non-IP hiring down there, ESP for transactional type stuff-- tax, structured financing, etc.

It is gorgeous out there, but if your fiancée doesn't like the cold, SF may not be a great place. No it never snows, but it is a breezy place and can be drizzly and rainy for much of the winter. And Mark Twain's quote about SF summers also has a grain of truth. Spring & Fall though: No place better on earth.

SF--


Bump.

Anyone else? Agree/disagree? I hear Boston requires ties. What about LA?


Both LA and Boston require strong/meaningful ties

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:14 pm

All except DC/NYC, IMO.

AP-375
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby AP-375 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:25 pm

My understanding of "ties" is that the only thing that matters is being able to show that you are committed to staying in the area and won't bail on the firm. After talking to attorneys at my Texas firm (0L) and networking with others, I've heard pretty weak "ties" like, "Brother-in-law lives here," "Came here as a kid," and "We like it and want to stay." And those are all from people who were hired at big firms.

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:05 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What about LA?

So far, this threat seems to be indicating that the only market you DON'T need strong ties to is NYC. If so, where the hell do people from the south work if they don't want NYC???


the south?


Yeah, been there done that. Don't like it. Seems like a relatively shitty situation to be in that if you don't want NYC or the South, you can't get a BigLaw job. Those two are pretty polar opposites, and some prefer the middle ground...

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Grizz
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:25 pm

AP-375 wrote:My understanding of "ties" is that the only thing that matters is being able to show that you are committed to staying in the area and won't bail on the firm. After talking to attorneys at my Texas firm (0L) and networking with others, I've heard pretty weak "ties" like, "Brother-in-law lives here," "Came here as a kid," and "We like it and want to stay." And those are all from people who were hired at big firms.

But ties are only one part of the equation. They may be willing to take a chance on someone with better grades, for example. Ties aren't a check box that you have or you don't.

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Bronte
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Bronte » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:29 pm

rad law wrote:
AP-375 wrote:My understanding of "ties" is that the only thing that matters is being able to show that you are committed to staying in the area and won't bail on the firm. After talking to attorneys at my Texas firm (0L) and networking with others, I've heard pretty weak "ties" like, "Brother-in-law lives here," "Came here as a kid," and "We like it and want to stay." And those are all from people who were hired at big firms.

But ties are only one part of the equation. They may be willing to take a chance on someone with better grades, for example. Ties aren't a check box that you have or you don't.


True to a certain extent, but it seems to me the deeper you get into secondary and tertiary markets (the markets that will require more ties), the less firms give a damn about grades or school rank, at least from the non-local schools.

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Grizz
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:55 pm

Bronte wrote:
rad law wrote:
AP-375 wrote:My understanding of "ties" is that the only thing that matters is being able to show that you are committed to staying in the area and won't bail on the firm. After talking to attorneys at my Texas firm (0L) and networking with others, I've heard pretty weak "ties" like, "Brother-in-law lives here," "Came here as a kid," and "We like it and want to stay." And those are all from people who were hired at big firms.

But ties are only one part of the equation. They may be willing to take a chance on someone with better grades, for example. Ties aren't a check box that you have or you don't.


True to a certain extent, but it seems to me the deeper you get into secondary and tertiary markets (the markets that will require more ties), the less firms give a damn about grades or school rank, at least from the non-local schools.

Definitely. The way I look at it is where you can get a job is a combination of 1) your school's prestige in the market you're targeting, 2) your ties to the market you're targeting, 3) and grades. It's not as simple as 3 check boxes for each of those things. It's a totality of circumstances thing.

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Bronte
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Bronte » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:00 pm

rad law wrote:Definitely. The way I look at it is where you can get a job is a combination of 1) your school's prestige in the market you're targeting, 2) your ties to the market you're targeting, 3) and grades. It's not as simple as 3 check boxes for each of those things. It's a totality of circumstances thing.


Sorry I had some sort of a heart palpitation when you said "totality of circumstances."

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Heartford
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Heartford » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:40 pm

Sorry, but they're all going to require ties, at least sometimes.

Image

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YourCaptain
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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Bronte wrote:
rad law wrote:Definitely. The way I look at it is where you can get a job is a combination of 1) your school's prestige in the market you're targeting, 2) your ties to the market you're targeting, 3) and grades. It's not as simple as 3 check boxes for each of those things. It's a totality of circumstances thing.


Sorry I had some sort of a heart palpitation when you said "totality of circumstances."


it was probably the least "bro" way he could have possibly have put that.

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:40 am

For any Bay Area experts, how is this for ties?:

1) Interest in tech/cyber/IP (no IP background though)--currently work for a consulting group that helps Bay Area tech companies sell into the government space

2) Couple of business trips to our up-start office in San Fran

3) Family in San Diego (Uncle); numerous trips to visit them

4) Considered Cali schools for undergrad (USD, UCSB, UCLA) and had some walk-on offers there

5) Generally like the area

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Re: Which markets generally require ties?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:For any Bay Area experts, how is this for ties?:

1) Interest in tech/cyber/IP (no IP background though)--currently work for a consulting group that helps Bay Area tech companies sell into the government space

2) Couple of business trips to our up-start office in San Fran

3) Family in San Diego (Uncle); numerous trips to visit them

4) Considered Cali schools for undergrad (USD, UCSB, UCLA) and had some walk-on offers there

5) Generally like the area


Just a word of advice from a Bay Area resident: Californians think of the north and south as almost two different states. So for instance if you're trying to convince a firm in San Francisco that you're committed to working there because you have family in San Diego (which is 8 hours south), they might wonder why you're not applying to a Los Angeles or San Diego office. If you think about it geographically, it's almost the same thing as telling a D.C. firm that your uncle in Jacksonville, Florida is a local connection.

(Anonymous because I'm not attending a CA school so my connection to SF would out me to classmates)




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