bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

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Grizz
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:36 pm

merc280 wrote:I'm kind of curious if he did any prep before 1L,

Lulz. Pretty irrelevant to the situation now, hindsight man. Enjoy the numerous threads about 0L prep and how to do better in law school, 0L.

Rule11
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Rule11 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:46 pm

schooner wrote:
Rule11 wrote:Drop out. You have to spend two more years there. That is a very significant opportunity cost. Being a lawyer is just a job. You are very fortunate not to have debt--that should help you avoid the sunk-costs fallacy. Just make the best decision going forward: you now know that you're bad at law school (even though I'm certain that you excel at many things), so the next two years will buy you a degree in a field for which you've demonstrated no aptitude. Unfortunately, almost all legal employers are obsessed with your grades, even several years into your career (do not believe the 1L myths to the contrary).

Yes, you might get a great job by networking. Yes, you might find that your true passion is doc review (seriously--I know a guy like this). But those are long odds--the Nile river long (pun emphatically intended).

Please, drop out.


OP, in two years, you will graduate with no debt and an advanced degree in an economy that will probably be better than it is today. Having a JD as an advanced degree -- having any advanced degree -- will open more doors than you might think.

If you drop out now, you will be searching for a job in a shitty economy with just a bachelor's degree (probably in a liberal arts field) and either a huge time gap or a "I flunked out of law school" mark on your resume.

You will definitely need to lower your expectations about your job prospects after graduation. There might not be a legal job in your near future. But if you drop out now, you definitely won't be able to EVER get a legal job.


What? The "J.D. opens doors" myth disinterred?

A J.D. with terrible grades from a school that lacks lay- or insider prestige opens exactly one door--the revolving one at the convention center where you'll take the bar exam (well, two, if you count the MPRE). Yes, it enables you to take the test so that you can "be a lawyer."

And then it makes you "overqualified" for all the non-law jobs that you'll desperately want.

As I acknowledged in my previous post, a chance remains that the OP will end up ok with a law degree. Far stranger things have happened. But let's not pretend it wouldn't still be very strange for a sub-3.0 from Davis to get a desirable legal job. Note well the word desirable--not all (not even most--actually, very few) legal jobs fit this bill. Most are just jobs, paying salaries comparable to or worse than the salaries paid in other fields that don't require a three-year degree. OP is in the dismal position of knowing, too, that he/she is now at the bottom of the food chain in an overpopulated ecosystem.

Just about anything would be better than trying to salvage this situation. Opportunity costs are real.


schooner
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby schooner » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:37 pm

Rule11 wrote:What? The "J.D. opens doors" myth disinterred?

A J.D. with terrible grades from a school that lacks lay- or insider prestige opens exactly one door--the revolving one at the convention center where you'll take the bar exam (well, two, if you count the MPRE). Yes, it enables you to take the test so that you can "be a lawyer."

And then it makes you "overqualified" for all the non-law jobs that you'll desperately want.

As I acknowledged in my previous post, a chance remains that the OP will end up ok with a law degree. Far stranger things have happened. But let's not pretend it wouldn't still be very strange for a sub-3.0 from Davis to get a desirable legal job. Note well the word desirable--not all (not even most--actually, very few) legal jobs fit this bill. Most are just jobs, paying salaries comparable to or worse than the salaries paid in other fields that don't require a three-year degree. OP is in the dismal position of knowing, too, that he/she is now at the bottom of the food chain in an overpopulated ecosystem.

Just about anything would be better than trying to salvage this situation. Opportunity costs are real.


If the OP drops out, he will probably spend the next year unemployed. By year 2, he will probably be working in an entry-level job for which he is already over-qualified, like salesperson. He will be forever shut out of the world of legal and PI jobs requiring an advanced degree (unless he decides to borrow $50-100K for a master's degree). This isn't much of an opportunity cost that the OP would have to pay.

If the OP stays, he will have food & shelter & a better platform for networking & unpaid work experience (than being yet another unemployed college grad) for 2 years, graduate with no debt, and have a law degree at the end. Yes, he will face a long and hard uphill climb in his job search, and his short-term job prospects will be fair to poor, but not zero. Yes, he will be overqualified for many of the jobs he'll have to apply for. But he'll also have an advantage in competing for many PI jobs, and over the very long-term, his career prospects aren't necessarily that bad and could actually be good if he hustles & he's lucky.

I'd say something different if the OP was incurring debt, but he's not. Let's say he ends up in a non-legal career either way in 20 years. The two years "head start" he'd get for such a career, if he drops out, won't really make a difference. In fact, he will probably be worse off because there are so few jobs available now that he'll have to settle for his 1st "real" job something that pays less & is a poorer fit for his interests.

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gwuorbust
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:54 pm

OP can do Personal Injury work. PI gets shit on all the time. But PI is better than selling shoes at Reebok or cold-calling magazine sales. Plus, if you are good at it you can make bank.

Rule11
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Rule11 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:54 pm

schooner wrote:If the OP drops out, he will probably spend the next year unemployed. By year 2, he will probably be working in an entry-level job for which he is already over-qualified, like salesperson. He will be forever shut out of the world of legal and PI jobs requiring an advanced degree (unless he decides to borrow $50-100K for a master's degree). This isn't much of an opportunity cost that the OP would have to pay.

If the OP stays, he will have food & shelter & a better platform for networking & unpaid work experience (than being yet another unemployed college grad) for 2 years, graduate with no debt, and have a law degree at the end. Yes, he will face a long and hard uphill climb in his job search, and his short-term job prospects will be fair to poor, but not zero. Yes, he will be overqualified for many of the jobs he'll have to apply for. But he'll also have an advantage in competing for many PI jobs, and over the very long-term, his career prospects aren't necessarily that bad and could actually be good if he hustles & he's lucky.

I'd say something different if the OP was incurring debt, but he's not. Let's say he ends up in a non-legal career either way in 20 years. The two years "head start" he'd get for such a career, if he drops out, won't really make a difference. In fact, he will probably be worse off because there are so few jobs available now that he'll have to settle for his 1st "real" job something that pays less & is a poorer fit for his interests.


I'm not sure whether this is responsive (to say nothing of whether it's correct). The real problem here is that a J.D. from Davis with shit grades (let's not sugarcoat this) is quite a bit worse than no J.D. at all. Chances of getting an acceptable legal job with those credentials are very, very slim. So, the best that the OP can hope for is that in two years, he'll have a worthless J.D. and be in the same position he would have been in had he dropped out, except two years older. Realistically, it's worse than that, as the J.D. will foreclose many entry-level jobs for which he'll now be "overqualified."

I hear you--it's hard to get any kind of job now. What I'm saying to you is that you're misunderstanding the costs to OP of sticking with the J.D.

schooner
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby schooner » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:22 pm

Rule11 wrote:What I'm saying to you is that you're misunderstanding the costs to OP of sticking with the J.D.


No. The issue of our agreement is the universe of job types that the OP could apply for with a JD from his school with his grades. You're thinking it's a choice between acceptable legal jobs and shit entry-level jobs. You're right; the OP will be sad to know that employers looking for cashiers, salespeople, and administrative assistants won't consider a JD. But you honestly think the better long-term life option is for the OP to permanently track himself to those jobs? I'm thinking about the additional pool of entry level jobs in good organizations w/ possibility of growth, given an advanced degree, and non-legal jobs for which no non-JD would ever be eligible. There are lots of PI employers out there who ask about law grads' work experiences, not their grades.

I'm also thinking about what his future self would wish he had done as a freaked out kid in his early 20s and what he would regret. And no, he would not be in the same position with a JD, even from his school and with his grades, as he would be had he dropped out.

I don't have any stats to back any of this up, though. Just anecdotes (like most other TLS'ers) and years and years of working with, observing, and asking about careers with hiring managers, recruiters, lawyers, non-practicing lawyers, and non-lawyers working in legal, non-legal, quasi-legal/govt/PI firms. I know JDs whose career paths took the T10, biglaw, exit career route, and I know JDs whose career paths started out at TTT and ended up all over the place, including dream PI and govt jobs. I also know unemployed JDs whose careers and financial situations are in deep shit in this economy. The point is that they all had a shot only because they had a JD to begin with, and I don't think the OP should be denied that if he understands the risks he's facing by continuing his degree.

OP, sorry to hijack this thread. My other message would be that you need to figure out what went wrong at school. "I don't know" and "I'm confused, surprised, and freaking out" would not be an acceptable answer if you were responsible for a similar outcome at work. You need to talk to professors, look at model test answers, honestly assess your talents, study habits, and shortcomings, etc and come with a constructive plan.

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:38 pm

OP here...162 LSAT and high LSDAS GPA from good ugrad school

I read getting to maybe a few times and law school confidential and all the success posts from people on TLS.

I will have not a single penny of debt coming out and dont mind working unpaid for my 2L summer and possibly even for my first year out of law school. But after that, I definitely want a somewhat decent legal job (50-70kish). I wouldn't even mind personal injury stuff..i REALLY do not mind a rocky start to my legal career...but I really do hope I can get a job that could pay 100K+ about 8-10 years out of law school just to support a family.

My resume sucks...but I am working at a small(but reputable) firm this summer and at the DA office this fall...so that should look better than the blank resume I had when I applied for 1L jobs...no decent work experience at all before law school.

i really value my quality of life and hours over anything else...so big law stuf was out for me from the start.

P.S. i have a B.A in political science so what could I possibly do with that thats worthwhile if i drop out

de5igual
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby de5igual » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here...162 LSAT and high LSDAS GPA from good ugrad school

I read getting to maybe a few times and law school confidential and all the success posts from people on TLS.

I will have not a single penny of debt coming out and dont mind working unpaid for my 2L summer and possibly even for my first year out of law school. But after that, I definitely want a somewhat decent legal job (50-70kish). I wouldn't even mind personal injury stuff..i REALLY do not mind a rocky start to my legal career...but I really do hope I can get a job that could pay 100K+ about 8-10 years out of law school just to support a family.

My resume sucks...but I am working at a small(but reputable) firm this summer and at the DA office this fall...so that should look better than the blank resume I had when I applied for 1L jobs...no decent work experience at all before law school.

i really value my quality of life and hours over anything else...so big law stuf was out for me from the start.

P.S. i have a B.A in political science so what could I possibly do with that thats worthwhile if i drop out


focus on government work. see if you can get an internship with a state agency 2L summer. they typically care a lot less about grades, and work life balance is usually a lot better than private practice at the same pay (around 50K starting)

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:58 pm

The drop out argument would make a ton more sense if you were taking on significant debt. I don't care what kind of work you're doing, a JD is going to look a whole lot better on a resume than blank space or BS service jobs. Plus you're apparently at least employable enough to take on some relevant internships, which can only be a positive thing. Stay in school, try and improve next semester, and keep on truckin'. Worst case scenario, you've spent 3 extra years in school. Not that bad of a problem to have in the grand scheme of things if you ask me.


Edit: Also this:
f0bolous wrote:focus on government work. see if you can get an internship with a state agency 2L summer. they typically care a lot less about grades, and work life balance is usually a lot better than private practice at the same pay (around 50K starting)

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby schooner » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I read getting to maybe a few times and law school confidential and all the success posts from people on TLS.


This isn't enough. You need to figure out what went wrong with your test exams specifically. You should also lower your expectations about making 100K+ 10 years out.

PS - Some of the posters keep thinking that hiring outside of law firms is based mostly on merit. (I'm guessing that's why they give knee-jerk responses for people to drop-out, regardless of individual circumstances.) That's just flat out not true.

Other factors are just as if not more important, like who you know in the employer's field, who you can get to recommend you to the employer, how verbally smooth & confident you are during interviews, who the prospective employer wants to make happy (e.g., donors), whether your personality clicks with the interviewer's, the specific needs of the employer & the specific skillset you bring to the table, and timing. That's why the OP has a shot of doing something useful with his JD.

If hiring was based just on merit, all the lazy dumbasses I know would have been laid off long ago and there wouldn't be so many talented people (esp. young people) still looking for work. If hiring was based just on merit, no one would suggest networking is useful.

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby paulinaporizkova » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:57 pm

softspoken wrote:what was OP's lsat score?


derpderpderpderp

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prezidentv8
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:02 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
softspoken wrote:what was OP's lsat score?


derpderpderpderp


and of course...


HERRRP

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby gingersnaps » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here...162 LSAT and high LSDAS GPA from good ugrad school

I read getting to maybe a few times and law school confidential and all the success posts from people on TLS.

I will have not a single penny of debt coming out and dont mind working unpaid for my 2L summer and possibly even for my first year out of law school. But after that, I definitely want a somewhat decent legal job (50-70kish). I wouldn't even mind personal injury stuff..i REALLY do not mind a rocky start to my legal career...but I really do hope I can get a job that could pay 100K+ about 8-10 years out of law school just to support a family.

My resume sucks...but I am working at a small(but reputable) firm this summer and at the DA office this fall...so that should look better than the blank resume I had when I applied for 1L jobs...no decent work experience at all before law school.

i really value my quality of life and hours over anything else...so big law stuf was out for me from the start.

P.S. i have a B.A in political science so what could I possibly do with that thats worthwhile if i drop out



162 lsat-I believe that is bottom 25th percentile at davis. interesting correlation

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YourCaptain
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:12 pm

good god people stop telling him to stay. personal injury work or pi jobs are really difficult to get. this is the perfect opportunity to drop out before racking up more debt.

Look OP, I feel bad for you, but I don't want to see you as an unemployment statistic on ATL in two years.

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bk1
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby bk1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:13 pm

gingersnaps wrote:162 lsat-I believe that is bottom 25th percentile at davis. interesting correlation


notsureifsrs...

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:21 pm

YourCaptain wrote:good god people stop telling him to stay. personal injury work or pi jobs are really difficult to get. this is the perfect opportunity to drop out before racking up more debt.

Look OP, I feel bad for you, but I don't want to see you as an unemployment statistic on ATL in two years.



Do you read? OP has said multiple times that he'll graduate with 0 debt.

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YourCaptain
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:39 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:good god people stop telling him to stay. personal injury work or pi jobs are really difficult to get. this is the perfect opportunity to drop out before racking up more debt.

Look OP, I feel bad for you, but I don't want to see you as an unemployment statistic on ATL in two years.



Do you read? OP has said multiple times that he'll graduate with 0 debt.


well sorry brah. ok OP, so you won't graduate with debt but you won't get a legal job either. so...yeah.

seatown12
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby seatown12 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:40 am

Rule11 wrote:The real problem here is that a J.D. from Davis with shit grades (let's not sugarcoat this) is quite a bit worse than no J.D. at all. Chances of getting an acceptable legal job with those credentials are very, very slim. So, the best that the OP can hope for is that in two years, he'll have a worthless J.D. and be in the same position he would have been in had he dropped out, except two years older. Realistically, it's worse than that, as the J.D. will foreclose many entry-level jobs for which he'll now be "overqualified."

lol

you don't know what you're talking about, and its apparent to everyone who didn't go straight from a prestigious UG to a prestigious LS

Aqualibrium
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:27 am

OP, my advice is that you go ahead and finish school.You've got no debt, and you don't exit into a better situation. Not saying this will happen to you, but I have classmates who were in your position (bottom quarter) after 1L year who rebounded to end up in the top 50%-33% by the end of 2L year. Conference with teachers,figure out what you did wrong, take summer classes, take easy a classes,etc...

For someone with no debt and no other marketable skills it just doesn't make sense to drop out IMO.

CanadianWolf
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:55 am

The best source for help is your professors since they can review your test with you. Your writing style/method may be the problem if you know & understand the material.

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:19 am

YourCaptain wrote:good god people stop telling him to stay. personal injury work or pi jobs are really difficult to get. this is the perfect opportunity to drop out before racking up more debt.

Look OP, I feel bad for you, but I don't want to see you as an unemployment statistic on ATL in two years.


yeah but international development jobs are everywhere!!!!

see, I can make up statements too!!! until you provide a basis for that statement I have no reason to believe it.

Is getting a PI job easy? no. possible? yes. I've spent a good amount of time reading JDU, despite the shittalk it gets on here, and it is possible to secure a low-level/pay PI job with work. Is that someone's ideal life direction when they enter law school with stars in their eyes? no. but it is better than waiting tables, like OP could end up doing if he drops out with no marketable skillzs.

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prezidentv8
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:12 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:good god people stop telling him to stay. personal injury work or pi jobs are really difficult to get. this is the perfect opportunity to drop out before racking up more debt.

Look OP, I feel bad for you, but I don't want to see you as an unemployment statistic on ATL in two years.


yeah but international development jobs are everywhere!!!!

see, I can make up statements too!!! until you provide a basis for that statement I have no reason to believe it.

Is getting a PI job easy? no. possible? yes. I've spent a good amount of time reading JDU, despite the shittalk it gets on here, and it is possible to secure a low-level/pay PI job with work. Is that someone's ideal life direction when they enter law school with stars in their eyes? no. but it is better than waiting tables, like OP could end up doing if he drops out with no marketable skillzs.


You seem wise.

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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:35 pm

OP here

I'm even more scared...I have no work experience whatsoever...I have a job with a small firm now and a job with the DA in the fall(both unpaid) and thats it...nothing else.

Should I forget about OCI or should i use my bids on small firms and government stuff that dont care about grades?

CanadianWolf
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Re: bottom quarter at uc davis...surprised and confused.needhelp

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:07 pm

Small firms & government positions that are not focused on grades.




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