Just below median at Chicago

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pehaigllleises
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:17 pm

I'm summering now with a bunch of Northwestern kids, where the median GPA is like an A-. They're kind of LOL in the opposite direction.

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dresden doll
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:19 pm

pehaigllleises wrote:I'm summering now with a bunch of Northwestern kids, where the median GPA is like an A-. They're kind of LOL in the opposite direction.


Yes, but I do think that grade inflation helps at the margins. NU kids certainly love it.

pehaigllleises
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:25 pm

I agree that inflation helps marginal kids, too. But employers catch on, and at some point it has to stop or else we turn into Northwestern. At least, not having letter grades, we can't be directly compared against Northwestern joke grades. Direct comparison would be really bad news.

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dresden doll
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:28 pm

pehaigllleises wrote:I agree that inflation helps marginal kids, too. But employers catch on, and at some point it has to stop or else we turn into Northwestern. At least, not having letter grades, we can't be directly compared against Northwestern joke grades. Direct comparison would be really bad news.


Oh I agree. I just tend to think that having 5 different levels of B is a bit excessive. :)

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:32 pm

OP here,

So I have looked everywhere for info on the class percentile cutoffs for the unfortunate below median people (I guess that's why no one has responded). But, just for my own personal satisfaction, is it safe to assume that 176.8-9 puts one outside the bottom 1/3?

Also, do you guys think that having one really, really bad grade amongst median or above grades looks any better or worse than consistently below median grades?

Again, I really appreciate the help!

pehaigllleises
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:36 pm

There's actually 6 flavors of B. And no prize for collecting them all.

OP, don't worry too much about your GPA. It's close enough to median, it really is. It's not going to keep you out of many places, and I have friends with that approximate GPA who have great biglaw jobs, and your year should be slightly better. Those 6 credit classes can really unfairly make or break a GPA.

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dresden doll
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here,

So I have looked everywhere for info on the class percentile cutoffs for the unfortunate below median people (I guess that's why no one has responded). But, just for my own personal satisfaction, is it safe to assume that 176.8-9 puts one outside the bottom 1/3?

Also, do you guys think that having one really, really bad grade amongst median or above grades looks any better or worse than consistently below median grades?

Again, I really appreciate the help!


yes, I think you may safely assume that 176.8 is outside the bottom third. As for your second question, I would guess that one really bad grade probably looks better since it can be attributed to a one time screw up (and the majority of law students, including successful ones, screw up at least once). Consistently below median, by contrast, indicates an unflattering pattern.

With that said, firms aren't likely to analyze your transcript. They'll probably simply consider the overall gpa.

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Emma.
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here,

So I have looked everywhere for info on the class percentile cutoffs for the unfortunate below median people (I guess that's why no one has responded). But, just for my own personal satisfaction, is it safe to assume that 176.8-9 puts one outside the bottom 1/3?

Also, do you guys think that having one really, really bad grade amongst median or above grades looks any better or worse than consistently below median grades?

Again, I really appreciate the help!


176.8 is really close to median. I don't know how it could possibly not be above the bottom 1/3.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:47 pm

Emma. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here,

So I have looked everywhere for info on the class percentile cutoffs for the unfortunate below median people (I guess that's why no one has responded). But, just for my own personal satisfaction, is it safe to assume that 176.8-9 puts one outside the bottom 1/3?

Also, do you guys think that having one really, really bad grade amongst median or above grades looks any better or worse than consistently below median grades?

Again, I really appreciate the help!


176.8 is really close to median. I don't know how it could possibly not be above the bottom 1/3.


I didn't think it was, but my outlook has been growing more negative as I try (unsuccessfully) to figure out where I stand. It's just that such a large percentage of each class receives the "median" and therefore below median grades are given to far less than half the class (let alone the terrible grade that I received). I have a feeling that a large percentage of the class is clustered at this "just below" median point, so I am concerned that a little difference here can mean a lot.

Also, I really appreciate the responses and I hope we can all get jobs that aren't objectively terrible!

A-Cow-Demia
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby A-Cow-Demia » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here,

So I have looked everywhere for info on the class percentile cutoffs for the unfortunate below median people (I guess that's why no one has responded). But, just for my own personal satisfaction, is it safe to assume that 176.8-9 puts one outside the bottom 1/3?

Also, do you guys think that having one really, really bad grade amongst median or above grades looks any better or worse than consistently below median grades?

Again, I really appreciate the help!


I think one bad grade will look better. For one thing, employers recognize that people are likely to have unrepresentatively high or low grades, so I think they'll largely dismiss your low grade. Also, employers don't see your gpa--they just see all your grades at once. Your transcript probably will look better than someone who has all 177s.

A-Cow-Demia
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby A-Cow-Demia » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:25 pm

Emma. wrote:
pehaigllleises wrote:Are you sure you're not allowed to put GPA on your resumes? I rechecked the handbook, and it says guessing at rank is verboten, and says that the firm won't calculate GPA for us, but it does not say that calculating GPA yourself and putting it on there is not allowed.

I have a high level of distrust of OCS after last year.


From the OCS handbook:

"Grades: This information will not appear on your resume for the Law School."

I think I saw somewhere else that it was a no-go as well. I'm not sure if it is an official school rule or not though, maybe that is the kind of thing you need to check with AMG about?


OCS can't forbid you from putting your gpa on your resume, so they discourage it with language that sounds like they're forbidding it. It prevents an unravelling effect where everyone ends up putting gpa on their resume.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:38 pm

so a ~top 25% GPA (178-179) should be on the resume or off?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:27 am

I think very few Chicago students will have GPAs on their resume, thus you will standout at OCI. Probably not in a good way.

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rayiner
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby rayiner » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:37 am

pehaigllleises wrote:I'm summering now with a bunch of Northwestern kids, where the median GPA is like an A-. They're kind of LOL in the opposite direction.


Our median is a B+ actually. What's mildly LOL-zy is that we actually make use of all that space between 3.33 and 4.33. So magna (top 3%) is around 3.97 at graduation and summa (top person every few years) is 4.2.

I think Virginia's curve is more LOL-zy, with everything compressed between 3.25 and 3.45. I hear grade-on for LR is like 3.5 over there. :lol:

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:50 am

UChi 3L here. Exact same situation as the OP last year (176.9 because of one awful grade).

First, stop trying to estimate where you are in the class. If you can't figure it out (and I assure you, there is no secret ranking list published somewhere), employers won't be able to either. Their "rankings" for transcripts are something like: Really fucking bad, Solidly below median, median-ish (probs 176-law review cutoff), law review, K&E.

The vast majority of the class will fall into the median-ish category. If that's you, you'll have to hope that other things about yourself get you callbacks. I knew someone with a solid 177 average that got 10 callbacks, and someone just below law review cutoff that got 0. Make sure your resume is flawless (don't rely just on OCS for this - they make mistakes. lots of em.); have a few others look it over for you. Mock interview with everyone you can. Think of any way you could spin your strengths. And make sure to include a variety of firms on your bid list (aka, include more than just V50 firms).

I think I only followed about half of the advice I just gave, and I ended up with 3 callbacks, 2 offers, and am now at a V20 firm.

theLawbringer
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby theLawbringer » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:24 am

Does anyone know when the K&E scholars are announced? After 1L year, or at graduation? If after 1L year, at what time during the summer?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:UChi 3L here. Exact same situation as the OP last year (176.9 because of one awful grade).

First, stop trying to estimate where you are in the class. If you can't figure it out (and I assure you, there is no secret ranking list published somewhere), employers won't be able to either. Their "rankings" for transcripts are something like: Really fucking bad, Solidly below median, median-ish (probs 176-law review cutoff), law review, K&E.

The vast majority of the class will fall into the median-ish category. If that's you, you'll have to hope that other things about yourself get you callbacks. I knew someone with a solid 177 average that got 10 callbacks, and someone just below law review cutoff that got 0. Make sure your resume is flawless (don't rely just on OCS for this - they make mistakes. lots of em.); have a few others look it over for you. Mock interview with everyone you can. Think of any way you could spin your strengths. And make sure to include a variety of firms on your bid list (aka, include more than just V50 firms).

I think I only followed about half of the advice I just gave, and I ended up with 3 callbacks, 2 offers, and am now at a V20 firm.


Very impressive. What do you think you did that helped you ultimately land your offers?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:04 pm

theLawbringer wrote:Does anyone know when the K&E scholars are announced? After 1L year, or at graduation? If after 1L year, at what time during the summer?


For 1Ls last year it was Sunday, July 18. And they aren't announced, just privately emailed.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
theLawbringer wrote:Does anyone know when the K&E scholars are announced? After 1L year, or at graduation? If after 1L year, at what time during the summer?


For 1Ls last year it was Sunday, July 18. And they aren't announced, just privately emailed.


It was yesterday for 1Ls.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:26 pm

Anyone know if the 2L K&E emails went out yet?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:UChi 3L here. Exact same situation as the OP last year (176.9 because of one awful grade).

First, stop trying to estimate where you are in the class. If you can't figure it out (and I assure you, there is no secret ranking list published somewhere), employers won't be able to either. Their "rankings" for transcripts are something like: Really fucking bad, Solidly below median, median-ish (probs 176-law review cutoff), law review, K&E.

The vast majority of the class will fall into the median-ish category. If that's you, you'll have to hope that other things about yourself get you callbacks. I knew someone with a solid 177 average that got 10 callbacks, and someone just below law review cutoff that got 0. Make sure your resume is flawless (don't rely just on OCS for this - they make mistakes. lots of em.); have a few others look it over for you. Mock interview with everyone you can. Think of any way you could spin your strengths. And make sure to include a variety of firms on your bid list (aka, include more than just V50 firms).

I think I only followed about half of the advice I just gave, and I ended up with 3 callbacks, 2 offers, and am now at a V20 firm.


Very impressive. What do you think you did that helped you ultimately land your offers?


Hard to say really, as no firm ever really tells you why they did/didn't pick you. I might have an idea though. Without being too specific, there are two aspects of my resume/background that some firms saw as being really positive and others saw as a negative. At first, I was sort of trying to be neutral about it, not really playing these things up or down because it was hard to know what a firm was looking for. At some point though I realized the ones who viewed them as negative weren't going to want me, and I wasn't going to want them. So I just played up these parts of my resume in all of my interviews and let the firms make up their own mind about it. That combined with playing up my "neutral" positives (things that any firm would see as pluses) helped me land callbacks at firms that I think I clicked with most.

It's also interesting to note that most firms didn't ask about the one horrible grade on my transcript, but 2 of the 3 callbacks I got did ask me about it. I still wouldn't bring it up if the interviewer doesn't, but if you have a good explanation for what happened and what you learned from it, it won't hurt to explain.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:UChi 3L here. Exact same situation as the OP last year (176.9 because of one awful grade).

First, stop trying to estimate where you are in the class. If you can't figure it out (and I assure you, there is no secret ranking list published somewhere), employers won't be able to either. Their "rankings" for transcripts are something like: Really fucking bad, Solidly below median, median-ish (probs 176-law review cutoff), law review, K&E.

The vast majority of the class will fall into the median-ish category. If that's you, you'll have to hope that other things about yourself get you callbacks. I knew someone with a solid 177 average that got 10 callbacks, and someone just below law review cutoff that got 0. Make sure your resume is flawless (don't rely just on OCS for this - they make mistakes. lots of em.); have a few others look it over for you. Mock interview with everyone you can. Think of any way you could spin your strengths. And make sure to include a variety of firms on your bid list (aka, include more than just V50 firms).

I think I only followed about half of the advice I just gave, and I ended up with 3 callbacks, 2 offers, and am now at a V20 firm.


Very impressive. What do you think you did that helped you ultimately land your offers?


Hard to say really, as no firm ever really tells you why they did/didn't pick you. I might have an idea though. Without being too specific, there are two aspects of my resume/background that some firms saw as being really positive and others saw as a negative. At first, I was sort of trying to be neutral about it, not really playing these things up or down because it was hard to know what a firm was looking for. At some point though I realized the ones who viewed them as negative weren't going to want me, and I wasn't going to want them. So I just played up these parts of my resume in all of my interviews and let the firms make up their own mind about it. That combined with playing up my "neutral" positives (things that any firm would see as pluses) helped me land callbacks at firms that I think I clicked with most.

It's also interesting to note that most firms didn't ask about the one horrible grade on my transcript, but 2 of the 3 callbacks I got did ask me about it. I still wouldn't bring it up if the interviewer doesn't, but if you have a good explanation for what happened and what you learned from it, it won't hurt to explain.


Thanks, that helps a lot. How would one go about explaining median performance overall, with a couple very good grades and many sub-median but not terrible grades, with no improvement over time?

Also, any ideas as to which firms in the V20/V50 are less grade sensitive?

Thanks!

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:UChi 3L here. Exact same situation as the OP last year (176.9 because of one awful grade).

First, stop trying to estimate where you are in the class. If you can't figure it out (and I assure you, there is no secret ranking list published somewhere), employers won't be able to either. Their "rankings" for transcripts are something like: Really fucking bad, Solidly below median, median-ish (probs 176-law review cutoff), law review, K&E.

The vast majority of the class will fall into the median-ish category. If that's you, you'll have to hope that other things about yourself get you callbacks. I knew someone with a solid 177 average that got 10 callbacks, and someone just below law review cutoff that got 0. Make sure your resume is flawless (don't rely just on OCS for this - they make mistakes. lots of em.); have a few others look it over for you. Mock interview with everyone you can. Think of any way you could spin your strengths. And make sure to include a variety of firms on your bid list (aka, include more than just V50 firms).

I think I only followed about half of the advice I just gave, and I ended up with 3 callbacks, 2 offers, and am now at a V20 firm.


Very impressive. What do you think you did that helped you ultimately land your offers?


Hard to say really, as no firm ever really tells you why they did/didn't pick you. I might have an idea though. Without being too specific, there are two aspects of my resume/background that some firms saw as being really positive and others saw as a negative. At first, I was sort of trying to be neutral about it, not really playing these things up or down because it was hard to know what a firm was looking for. At some point though I realized the ones who viewed them as negative weren't going to want me, and I wasn't going to want them. So I just played up these parts of my resume in all of my interviews and let the firms make up their own mind about it. That combined with playing up my "neutral" positives (things that any firm would see as pluses) helped me land callbacks at firms that I think I clicked with most.

It's also interesting to note that most firms didn't ask about the one horrible grade on my transcript, but 2 of the 3 callbacks I got did ask me about it. I still wouldn't bring it up if the interviewer doesn't, but if you have a good explanation for what happened and what you learned from it, it won't hurt to explain.


Thanks, that helps a lot. How would one go about explaining median performance overall, with a couple very good grades and many sub-median but not terrible grades, with no improvement over time?

Also, any ideas as to which firms in the V20/V50 are less grade sensitive?

Thanks!


I doubt that any firm is going to ask you about grades if you have consistent performance (no one asked me about my other median-ish grades; a couple remarked on one particularly high grade). I would focus instead on emphasizing your other strengths. Do you have any work experience? It doesn't have to be anything significant; even waiting tables for a few years can be spun into a good thing if you can say you learned how to manage time and deal with conflicts and unhappy people. Foreign language skills and being particularly active in student orgs can be good things too, though it's not enough just to have the resume line: you have to have a great reason for why that will make you a great associate. Same goes for research experience or a strong interest in a particular area that a firm is known for.

All firms are going to be somewhat grade sensitive, but remember there are a lot more SA positions that firms want to give to UChicago students than there are people on Law Review. Stay away from the super grade sensitive ones (Wachtell, Cravath, SulCrom, Williams & Connolly, Kirkland to a lesser extent, etc.) and convince the others that are going to be filling their class with median-ish people that you bring something to the table.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:23 am

Not the OP, but curious if anyone has a guess as to how low of a bid will be able to score an interview with the NYC V10s that have 42 slots?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:03 am

I don't want to be rude, but OP, why are you freaking out about the 176.9?

The median probably wont be a 177, it may even be a 176.8 for all you know.

<3Ls feel free to correct the information below>

The "median" to employers, from what I understand is 176-178.5. Basically, a few firms actually care about grade cut-offs. Everyone else wants the grade-on kids, but will settle for the average w/good w/e, social skills, connection, etc. They only shoot down the people with very low grades. The bottom 15% of firms at OCI will take anything that fits and will probably take the bottom 15% people.

I mean, lets be straight. There are a few people who grade on. Everything between a 176 and a 178.5 is luck.

I studied 3 hours for elements and read and got a 182. I studied for years for property and got a 173 after hitting all of the major issues and even turning to another student before the test (who got a 182) and quoting to him exactly what the fact pattern would address. I guess my property teacher didn't like the fact that I didn't write well or something.

Everyone is like you. I have a friend who got a 173 in Epstein who knew the material cold and got all of the issues. I went to class 75% of the time, and never, ever read, missed Erie and like three other MAJOR issues, and got a 177 because I studied one minor rule that dominated the first of the three questions on the fact pattern.

Everyone has been through law school, they know at top 5 schools there are very, very few x-boxers or lazy dumb people. They also probably graduated during the boom and were medianish themselves.

Median= Not bombing tests like crazy, or ending up in the top 15%.

Job therefore= Being more special than the rest of the medianish 80% in at least one interview and call-back (work experience, write-on, physical attractiveness, interview skills, bidding strategy, luck, being well-dressed, interesting hobby, having an easy home market, better economy, not bad social skills, etc.)

Oh, and to also justify the use of the Anon feature, don't apply to Lockelord in Texas, they are bleeding jobs but still hiring and cycling through quickly from what I hear.




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