above-market compensation

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Anonymous User
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:perfect grades at HYS


just curious what this means?

notanumber
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby notanumber » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:perfect grades at HYS


just curious what this means?


"Perfect" grades would vary depending on how many classes one took, but off the top of my head:

H= 10DS, 0H, 0P, 0LP, 0F
S = 12H, 0P, 0LP
Y= 4H, 4P, 0LP, 0F

Yale is the only place where "perfect" grades are realistic. It *might* be possible at Stanford. I'm sure the OP means actually "perfect" grades at Yale or mostly DS/H at Harvard/Stanford.

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quakeroats
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby quakeroats » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:40 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
luthersloan wrote:Or you could always feeder clerk, SCOTUS clerk and collect that 250K starting bonus from any of those firms.


Even a SCOTUS clerkship is going to cost you money in the short term. You forgo 160k+bonus for two years--plus your second year you'd probably get a raise--which is more than 250k+two years of a clerks salary.


Actually no. Once you factor in taxes and such, most people make money or break even if they make SCOTUS; plus, it makes you more competitive for the Susmans/BBs of the world.


That 250k bonus is presumably paid in one year. That year you're still paid your regular 200k (assuming you get the moved up two classes) plus a bonus of say 30k. That's 480k in one year where the non-clerk got to take all of his first two year's compensation over time. You'll pay fewer taxes while you're clerking, but the taxation hit of having so much income so quickly is going to overcome it. At best, you'll make 0-30k more and that's assuming you make it.

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Grizz
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby Grizz » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
seriouslyinformative wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Let's add a twist: what if I want to be in NY or DC and I'd like to be at a firm that not only does good appellate work but also lets young associates contribute to it? For this purpose, maybe assume (though I know it's no given) that I'll clerk after law school. Thanks!!


Kellogg Huber
Zuckerman Spaeder
Kirkland

I think the first two pay above market, but I can't be sure. I don't know other firms with appellate practices that pay above-market. And I don't know any firm that let's associates touch appellate work pre-clerkship.


Does Zuckerman take summer associates?

No.

http://www.zuckerman.com/hiringpartner/

Anonymous User
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:58 pm

1. Susman- Have you ever BEEN to texas? Yes COL is lower- for a reason. HOT! Humid!

2. NY firms- COL is double and QOL is 1/2 (at 3000 hours a year). Big money at big price. (Also bonuses are not guaranteed- who knows what happens if we have a double dip recession)

2. Yes- lot's of bonuses- at a price! You do not get big bonuses at 1900-2000 hrs. Most of you have never worked 1600 hours in a year, much less 2000+. It exacts a a toll. Not saying don't do it- just understand ther is a price in real terms (see the story about the 32 YO associate who just succumbed to a heart attach working at home on a Sunday.)

3. Big Law lit is, for the most part doc review and drudgery.

4. Boutiques present thier own pressure to bill a lot (See Quinn, and others). There is no way to slide through at 1900 or so (except maybe at Jenner, W&C, and some of the really small 1st amendment boutiques or white collar firms (Levine, Keker etc)).

5. Yale grades- there are no grades 1st semester, and likely 4 each semester thereafter (and some clinics are Cr/NC, not graded, so probably fewer graded classes). All H's is possible with a curve that allows 30%+/- Hs in each class at Profs discretion. That said I don't know how many actually pull all H's fter 2L year, but there have to be at least a few.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:34 pm

quakeroats wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
luthersloan wrote:Or you could always feeder clerk, SCOTUS clerk and collect that 250K starting bonus from any of those firms.


Even a SCOTUS clerkship is going to cost you money in the short term. You forgo 160k+bonus for two years--plus your second year you'd probably get a raise--which is more than 250k+two years of a clerks salary.


Actually no. Once you factor in taxes and such, most people make money or break even if they make SCOTUS; plus, it makes you more competitive for the Susmans/BBs of the world.


That 250k bonus is presumably paid in one year. That year you're still paid your regular 200k (assuming you get the moved up two classes) plus a bonus of say 30k. That's 480k in one year where the non-clerk got to take all of his first two year's compensation over time. You'll pay fewer taxes while you're clerking, but the taxation hit of having so much income so quickly is going to overcome it. At best, you'll make 0-30k more and that's assuming you make it.


Keep in mind that you're only going to get ~3.5 months of pay at the firm after the clerkship year. Anyway, I've done the math on this for Chicago (comparing 0 clerkships vs. 1 clerkship vs. 1 CoA + SCOTUS vs. 2 CoA vs. 2 CoA + SCOTUS), and over the course of three years, the pay hierarchy, assuming Cravath-scale bonuses, filing as a single, after-tax, goes:

1.) 1 CoA + SCOTUS + 1 year at firm: $431k
2.) 3 years at firm: $400k
3.) 1 CoA + 2 years at firm: $369k
4.) 2 CoA + SCOTUS: $348k
5.) 2 CoA + 1 year at firm: $300k

So yeah, you make $30k more, assuming you make it, and it costs you about to do one CoA clerkship if you don't make it. (This is admittedly all using paycheck city and such, so it is obviously a bit tenuous.) That said, you increase dramatically your chances of getting the kind of above-market pay that we're talking about ITT if you do a clerkship - and, as far as the above-market lit practices are concerned, the CoA aspect of the equation is basically required.

To the last anon: have you been to Chicago? Yes, the CoL is lower- for a reason. COLD! Humid! The only big legal market without miserable weather is CA;)

Anonymous User
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:16 am

notanumber wrote:
"Perfect" grades would vary depending on how many classes one took, but off the top of my head:

H= 10DS, 0H, 0P, 0LP, 0F
S = 12H, 0P, 0LP
Y= 4H, 4P, 0LP, 0F

Yale is the only place where "perfect" grades are realistic. It *might* be possible at Stanford. I'm sure the OP means actually "perfect" grades at Yale or mostly DS/H at Harvard/Stanford.


am I confused? 4H at Yale = 10 DS at Harvard even though somebody was saying 7 DS were record grades for a 1L? ...also not sure why Hs at Stanford = DS at Harvard; dont they give out something like 30% Hs at Stanford and 2-3% DS at Harvard?

notanumber
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby notanumber » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
notanumber wrote:
"Perfect" grades would vary depending on how many classes one took, but off the top of my head:

H= 10DS, 0H, 0P, 0LP, 0F
S = 12H, 0P, 0LP
Y= 4H, 4P, 0LP, 0F

Yale is the only place where "perfect" grades are realistic. It *might* be possible at Stanford. I'm sure the OP means actually "perfect" grades at Yale or mostly DS/H at Harvard/Stanford.


am I confused? 4H at Yale = 10 DS at Harvard even though somebody was saying 7 DS were record grades for a 1L? ...also not sure why Hs at Stanford = DS at Harvard; dont they give out something like 30% Hs at Stanford and 2-3% DS at Harvard?


I was just pedantically listing what "perfect" grades would be (though, apparently one can do better than just honors at Stanford). Obviously, getting 10DS at Harvard borders on impossible and somebody who achieved that, or grades approaching that, would have much more impressive grades than the YLS kid with all Honors.

Anonymous User
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Re: above-market compensation

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:34 pm

notanumber wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
notanumber wrote:
"Perfect" grades would vary depending on how many classes one took, but off the top of my head:

H= 10DS, 0H, 0P, 0LP, 0F
S = 12H, 0P, 0LP
Y= 4H, 4P, 0LP, 0F

Yale is the only place where "perfect" grades are realistic. It *might* be possible at Stanford. I'm sure the OP means actually "perfect" grades at Yale or mostly DS/H at Harvard/Stanford.


am I confused? 4H at Yale = 10 DS at Harvard even though somebody was saying 7 DS were record grades for a 1L? ...also not sure why Hs at Stanford = DS at Harvard; dont they give out something like 30% Hs at Stanford and 2-3% DS at Harvard?


I was just pedantically listing what "perfect" grades would be (though, apparently one can do better than just honors at Stanford). Obviously, getting 10DS at Harvard borders on impossible and somebody who achieved that, or grades approaching that, would have much more impressive grades than the YLS kid with all Honors.


I'm not sure how you distinguish among "all H" YLS students (albeit there are only a few no doubt). YLS doesn't give book awards, or report class standing. But Profs do tell those who had "best exam/paper" of their standing, and profs offer to make calls on behalf of those top students. So that may be the distinguishing feature that separates the top from the also rans.

GTL, do you clerks make that fine a distinction among candidates from the top schools? Are "All H" YLS students actually at a disadvantage when compared to a 5-7 DS HLSer? Are there really AllH students at SLS?

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: above-market compensation

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:45 am

so what about trying to split at two of these litigation boutiques? if you know you want to clerk, is that dumb? imagine like williams & connolly/wilmer/jenner/kirkland/boies. i know that might leave one without offer in hand, but i guess there's also a job application process following a clerkship. just wanted to hear thoughts on whether it makes sense to try to get something like this to get a sense of more than one office.




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