URMs & Firm Employment

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sparty99
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby sparty99 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:35 pm

bwv812 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:You stop. What are you? A URM? If not, you can stop pretending you know if a URM receives a boost.

Well, lack of personal experience doesn't stop you from telling other people what they are doing in their interviews, etc.

One doesn't have to be a member of a group in order to have an opinion of have knowledge of how that group is treated. And just because you are a member of a group doesn't mean you do have knowledge. Hiring is a black box for most of us who aren't on hiring committees. But I do now that almost every firm touts its diversity, so this is something they likely do take into account at some point along the way. It's also true that Asians/ORMs are counted as diverse for the purpose of law firm diversity, so I'm sure it's true that any advantage URMs receive is not as large as the boost they get in law school admissions, but I suspect it's still there.


I'm actually over this conversation and have applied to four job postings since my last post.

Anonymous User
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:12 am

I am a non-traditional student with over five years of professional experience prior to law school. I was a 1L SA and received a few 2L offers. Will likely clerk after law school before rolling to a firm

I do not go to a T14 school and I am not on a journal (although, I keep getting pressure to do the competition as a 2L from professors). I have two advanced degrees from an Ivy League institution, and accepted an offer with a firm that is band 1 for my practice areas of interest.

While I fit into the URM, I don't think it was a boost. If anything, it was more like icing on a really good cake. If I was white with the same credentials, the firm would have hired me.

I have a lot of other things going on that make race and gender issues after thoughts. I've managed individuals, hired staff and worked on relevant health care areas prior to law school.

Anonymous User
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am a non-traditional student with over five years of professional experience prior to law school. I was a 1L SA and received a few 2L offers. Will likely clerk after law school before rolling to a firm

I do not go to a T14 school and I am not on a journal (although, I keep getting pressure to do the competition as a 2L from professors). I have two advanced degrees from an Ivy League institution, and accepted an offer with a firm that is band 1 for my practice areas of interest.

While I fit into the URM, I don't think it was a boost. If anything, it was more like icing on a really good cake. If I was white with the same credentials, the firm would have hired me.

I have a lot of other things going on that make race and gender issues after thoughts. I've managed individuals, hired staff and worked on relevant health care areas prior to law school.

Congrats on the offer. I'm a very similarly situated URM minus the ivy league advanced degrees. 6 years WE, 1L SA, and a few offers from OCI that I could have gotten regardless of URM. FYI, if you plan on clerking, you really should do a journal. A lot of judges (if not all?) consider it a prerequisite.

IMO, aside from the 5%-30% (on a sliding scale from T1 to T6) grade bump that only the most desirable URM receive, the most significant bump available is the opportunity to participate in the 1L diversity SA programs. My 1L SA (in-house) gave me some good talking points for OCI, but the big payoff was having some credible recommendations. More than one firm, including one that offered, called and asked them about my work. That vote of confidence was the biggest bump a law student could get. Granted, I actually did some in-depth substantive work, which can't be said for most 1L SAs.

Anonymous User
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:48 am

I am not sold on clerking, but I am saying that I am interested in it until I am not. I did my 1L SA at a firm, which set me apart from 99% of my classmates. I also interview and network very well. While diversity fellowships (from firms) are great as 1L, only a few and top students will receive them. I was showed the binders full of applications.

Anonymous User
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am not sold on clerking, but I am saying that I am interested in it until I am not. I did my 1L SA at a firm, which set me apart from 99% of my classmates. I also interview and network very well. While diversity fellowships (from firms) are great as 1L, only a few and top students will receive them. I was showed the binders full of applications.


I am student at HYSCCN. Median. Asian. I got a 1L SA diversity fellowship in a secondary market with very few asians largely because of the boost. There's no way I would have gotten in without it.

The boost exists - but it does not exist equally at all firms and all locations.

Also, my 1L SA did not set me apart from my peers. I applied for major markets with lots of Asians for 2L summer and under performed (though still got an offer). So I think if you have ties to non-major legal markets where URMs from top schools are less likely to go, you could have an edge. The firm I worked at 1L summer was a large office(between 150-300 attys) and only had literally 4 ethnically diverse attorneys.

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bwv812
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby bwv812 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am not sold on clerking, but I am saying that I am interested in it until I am not. I did my 1L SA at a firm, which set me apart from 99% of my classmates. I also interview and network very well. While diversity fellowships (from firms) are great as 1L, only a few and top students will receive them. I was showed the binders full of applications.


I am student at HYSCCN. Median. Asian. I got a 1L SA diversity fellowship in a secondary market with very few asians largely because of the boost. There's no way I would have gotten in without it.

The boost exists - but it does not exist equally at all firms and all locations.

Also, my 1L SA did not set me apart from my peers. I applied for major markets with lots of Asians for 2L summer and under performed (though still got an offer). So I think if you have ties to non-major legal markets where URMs from top schools are less likely to go, you could have an edge. The firm I worked at 1L summer was a large office(between 150-300 attys) and only had literally 4 ethnically diverse attorneys.

Asians are not URMs.

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anon919
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby anon919 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:36 pm

bwv812 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am not sold on clerking, but I am saying that I am interested in it until I am not. I did my 1L SA at a firm, which set me apart from 99% of my classmates. I also interview and network very well. While diversity fellowships (from firms) are great as 1L, only a few and top students will receive them. I was showed the binders full of applications.


I am student at HYSCCN. Median. Asian. I got a 1L SA diversity fellowship in a secondary market with very few asians largely because of the boost. There's no way I would have gotten in without it.

The boost exists - but it does not exist equally at all firms and all locations.

Also, my 1L SA did not set me apart from my peers. I applied for major markets with lots of Asians for 2L summer and under performed (though still got an offer). So I think if you have ties to non-major legal markets where URMs from top schools are less likely to go, you could have an edge. The firm I worked at 1L summer was a large office(between 150-300 attys) and only had literally 4 ethnically diverse attorneys.

Asians are not URMs.


And HYSCCN is not part of this discussion.

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JazzOne
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby JazzOne » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:39 pm

bwv812 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am not sold on clerking, but I am saying that I am interested in it until I am not. I did my 1L SA at a firm, which set me apart from 99% of my classmates. I also interview and network very well. While diversity fellowships (from firms) are great as 1L, only a few and top students will receive them. I was showed the binders full of applications.


I am student at HYSCCN. Median. Asian. I got a 1L SA diversity fellowship in a secondary market with very few asians largely because of the boost. There's no way I would have gotten in without it.

The boost exists - but it does not exist equally at all firms and all locations.

Also, my 1L SA did not set me apart from my peers. I applied for major markets with lots of Asians for 2L summer and under performed (though still got an offer). So I think if you have ties to non-major legal markets where URMs from top schools are less likely to go, you could have an edge. The firm I worked at 1L summer was a large office(between 150-300 attys) and only had literally 4 ethnically diverse attorneys.

Asians are not URMs.

Dean Perez recently posted the opposite.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=197451&start=1200#p7200235

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hyakku
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby hyakku » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:03 pm

bwv812 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am not sold on clerking, but I am saying that I am interested in it until I am not. I did my 1L SA at a firm, which set me apart from 99% of my classmates. I also interview and network very well. While diversity fellowships (from firms) are great as 1L, only a few and top students will receive them. I was showed the binders full of applications.


I am student at HYSCCN. Median. Asian. I got a 1L SA diversity fellowship in a secondary market with very few asians largely because of the boost. There's no way I would have gotten in without it.

The boost exists - but it does not exist equally at all firms and all locations.

Also, my 1L SA did not set me apart from my peers. I applied for major markets with lots of Asians for 2L summer and under performed (though still got an offer). So I think if you have ties to non-major legal markets where URMs from top schools are less likely to go, you could have an edge. The firm I worked at 1L summer was a large office(between 150-300 attys) and only had literally 4 ethnically diverse attorneys.

Asians are not URMs.


Actually for many law firm diversity purposes they are. As are women. This misinformation really needs to stop being spread as many of my Asian American / female friends have missed out on some great opportunities because they didn't know this. Fairs like the BADF specifically note that Indian/Asian americans are encouraged to apply (and, in fact, I'd say most people that attend the BADF are probably asian/indian/female, not AA/Hispanic), and everything from prelaw programs like SEO, to 1L and 2L diversity scholarships also consider Asian Americans diverse (I know of asian americans that have participated at each of these levels). Of course, there may be fewer programs directed at these groups, but what you said is just false.

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bwv812
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby bwv812 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:52 pm

hyakku wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Asians are not URMs.

Actually for many law firm diversity purposes they are. As are women. This misinformation really needs to stop being spread as many of my Asian American / female friends have missed out on some great opportunities because they didn't know this. Fairs like the BADF specifically note that Indian/Asian americans are encouraged to apply (and, in fact, I'd say most people that attend the BADF are probably asian/indian/female, not AA/Hispanic), and everything from prelaw programs like SEO, to 1L and 2L diversity scholarships also consider Asian Americans diverse (I know of asian americans that have participated at each of these levels). Of course, there may be fewer programs directed at these groups, but what you said is just false.

In an earlier post I acknowledged that ORMs are considered diverse for law firm purposes; I don't think this means that they are URMs, however, as they are not underrepresented.

I agree that Asians are able to participate in diversity hiring programs, but I'm not really troubled by the fact that Asians have missed out on opportunities because of misperceptions about diversity programs. It doesn't seem unfair if some overrepresented minorities (such as myself) fail to participate in these programs and underrepresented minorities do.

JazzOne wrote:
bwv812 wrote:Asians are not URMs.


Dean Perez recently posted the opposite.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=197451&start=1200#p7200235

Interesting. I don't really buy it, though. In the undergraduate context it's abundantly clear that there are de facto quotas in place capping ORM enrollment, and I'm pretty sure that undergraduate admissions also capture ethnicity data along the same lines as law schools (I didn't do college in the US, though)—the existence of ABA race categories suggests nothing. I haven't seen any empirical evidence to suggest Asians receive any admissions boost that the conventional categories of AA, Natives, or Hispanics receive.

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JazzOne
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby JazzOne » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:55 pm

bwv812 wrote:Interesting. I don't really buy it, though. In the undergraduate context it's abundantly clear that there are de facto quotas in place capping ORM enrollment, and I'm pretty sure that undergraduate admissions also capture ethnicity data along the same lines as law schools (I didn't do college in the US, though)—the existence of ABA race categories suggests nothing. I haven't seen any empirical evidence to suggest Asians receive any admissions boost that the conventional categories of AA, Natives, or Hispanics receive.

Mike Spivey agreed that Asians do not get a URM bump, so I guess you were right.




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