URMs & Firm Employment

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URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:29 pm

Boosts were predictable to a certain extent in law apps. Wondering if people can chime in about their experience with big firm apps, and the bidding process. I had trouble finding anything about URMs outside the context of law school admissions. Thanks!

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:44 pm

in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:47 pm

Above median URMs, from my experiences and knowledge, do well at OCI. However, not that many URMs end up being above median.

Also, URMs above 3.0 seem to do well with mass mailing - I don't mean only within the NLJ250, but in general.

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Doritos
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Doritos » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.


You should bring your A game as your last paragraph states but if your first paragraph is meant to say that being diverse is not included in the calculus then that is incorrect. Firms actively recruit diverse talent (see the various job fairs & diversity scholarships given to 1Ls, and 2L/3Ls as well) but its hard to quantify any sort of "boost". My understanding is similar to Aberzombie...high performing minorities are sought after but the less impressive your credentials are the less attractive you are to an employer. Also, I think its important to note that many companies actively look for firms that have diverse talent when figuring who to hire for outside counsel so there is a financial incentive to have some smart brown attorneys at your firm.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.

Whoa! Has some pent up frustrations about URMs or what? You have so many assumptions in this response, I don't even know where to begin. Next time, try and take a deep breath before posting.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.

Whoa! Has some pent up frustrations about URMs or what? You have so many assumptions in this response, I don't even know where to begin. Next time, try and take a deep breath before posting.


i actually am a urm. and i would actually benefit a great deal from any urm bump in hiring. so i assure you that there is no frustration on my part. i just see the world for what it is. try it some time.

anyway, i was just pointing out what is a fundamental distinction between firm hiring and law school admissions. even firms with the largest summer classes dont seem to be hiring a substantial number of urms, so i dont think there is much to back up the idea that urm status bears a great deal on oci prospects. if me telling op to err on the side of conservatism bothers you, i'm not sure what to say...

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:35 pm

Doritos wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.


You should bring your A game as your last paragraph states but if your first paragraph is meant to say that being diverse is not included in the calculus then that is incorrect. Firms actively recruit diverse talent (see the various job fairs & diversity scholarships given to 1Ls, and 2L/3Ls as well) but its hard to quantify any sort of "boost". My understanding is similar to Aberzombie...high performing minorities are sought after but the less impressive your credentials are the less attractive you are to an employer. Also, I think its important to note that many companies actively look for firms that have diverse talent when figuring who to hire for outside counsel so there is a financial incentive to have some smart brown attorneys at your firm.


i think our points are logically consistent, and i agree with you.

all i essentially said was "dont expect to ride any substantial urm bump into the v25, regardless of your credentials." there are too many other factors at play to say anything more precise than that

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Moxie
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Moxie » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:43 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Above median URMs, from my experiences and knowledge, do well at OCI. However, not that many URMs end up being above median.

Also, URMs above 3.0 seem to do well with mass mailing - I don't mean only within the NLJ250, but in general.


+1. Although I was surprised at how well my fellow (URM) friends did with grades, considering the less than average stats we had before LS.

Re: URM and firm hiring - I've seen this benefit firsthand when searching for a 1L SA, where URMs had significantly better chances at those positions than non-URMs. I can only hope this will continue during the upcoming bidding season, although I think my grades will also be helpful in this regard.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:21 pm

I went through OCI last year. I am at one of YHS and have above-median grades, although I am unsure as to where I fall in the class. I got offers at firms that were otherwise super competitive/out of reach for non-URMs at my same school. I would say that if you have solid credentials to start, you can definitely get a substantial bump due to URM status. As previously stated, it won't allow someone with mediocre grades to skate into a V25, but if you have decent grades--even if unspectacular--you will get a wide variety of offers from V25 firms. I was able to get offers from V25 firms plus other strong firms like Munger.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I went through OCI last year. I am at one of YHS and have above-median grades, although I am unsure as to where I fall in the class. I got offers at firms that were otherwise super competitive/out of reach for non-URMs at my same school. I would say that if you have solid credentials to start, you can definitely get a substantial bump due to URM status. As previously stated, it won't allow someone with mediocre grades to skate into a V25, but if you have decent grades--even if unspectacular--you will get a wide variety of offers from V25 firms. I was able to get offers from V25 firms plus other strong firms like Munger.

I would concur with the caveat that if you suck at interviewing you're still fucked despite all this.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.


A reasonably competent college student could do most junior associate work, and at law firms you are primarily graded on hours billed, not fine distinctions in the quality of your work- as long as you meet a certain competence standard. Even if most URMs at top schools fall in the bottom 15% or whatever, they still have the smarts to do most junior/midlevel work at even top firms.

There is no great boost in "talent" (the quality of the work) from taking median at T6 vs. bottom 15%, and, as mentioned above, a potentially huge boost in business for being seen as a diverse firm. I know, for example, that WLRK hired below median T6 URM students for SA positions.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:01 pm

Does a top 15% AA Male at #50 ranked law school look more/less better than a median AA male at a T6? thanks

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BruceWayne
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:08 pm

timbs4339 wrote:here is no great boost in "talent" (the quality of the work) from taking median at T6 vs. bottom 15%, and, as mentioned above, a potentially huge boost in business for being seen as a diverse firm. I know, for example, that WLRK hired below median T6 URM students for SA positions.



:shock: :shock: Geez if that's true that's incredible. It's also probably going to cause anti AA posters to start a riot. I didn't think a firm like that would take below median from anyone and from any school.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby dc1s » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.

Whoa! Has some pent up frustrations about URMs or what? You have so many assumptions in this response, I don't even know where to begin. Next time, try and take a deep breath before posting.


i actually am a urm. and i would actually benefit a great deal from any urm bump in hiring. so i assure you that there is no frustration on my part. i just see the world for what it is. try it some time.

anyway, i was just pointing out what is a fundamental distinction between firm hiring and law school admissions. even firms with the largest summer classes dont seem to be hiring a substantial number of urms, so i dont think there is much to back up the idea that urm status bears a great deal on oci prospects. if me telling op to err on the side of conservatism bothers you, i'm not sure what to say...


Before calling out others for not seeing the world "for what it is", try informing yourself first. Many big law firms have financial incentives from clients to hire diverse classes. Some clients, including Wal-Mart, require it. To think that URM's aren't sought after is wrong. For this reason, URM's often do see a boost when applying for a job.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 pm

i think we should distinguish wlrk's 1l program from their actual 2l summer program. i know they regularly take below median urms for the former, but participants arent allowed to even interview for the 2l program.

one of my good friends last year (aa male) here at hls had 8 hs and got an offer from w&c but not wachtell.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I went through OCI last year. I am at one of YHS and have above-median grades, although I am unsure as to where I fall in the class. I got offers at firms that were otherwise super competitive/out of reach for non-URMs at my same school. I would say that if you have solid credentials to start, you can definitely get a substantial bump due to URM status. As previously stated, it won't allow someone with mediocre grades to skate into a V25, but if you have decent grades--even if unspectacular--you will get a wide variety of offers from V25 firms. I was able to get offers from V25 firms plus other strong firms like Munger.

I would concur with the caveat that if you suck at interviewing you're still fucked despite all this.



Truth. Besides being very outgoing and personable, I had a lot to talk about from my resume. My biggest tip is to put something memorable (if you have something unique or reasonably quirky) on your resume as an interest or a miscellaneous point. I had something on mine that was brought up in every single interview--screeners and callbacks--and some interviewers were excited to talk to me even before they met me based on the item on my resume.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:18 pm

dc1s wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:in the school admission process, deans get brownie points for bringing in a diverse class. but no one has any financial stake in how urms perform.

in the law firm hiring context, however, there are real financial consequences for bringing on under-performing talent. the partner you interview with has a personal stake in getting top flight talent. do you honestly think that he will readily ignore objective criteria in evaluating talent when fucking up means essentially taking food out of his kids' mouths? i doubt it.

please dont expect urm status to carry you through oci. i sincerely promise you that it will not. bring your a game to the process. this means researching the shit out of firms and having good stories to explain away weaknesses in your candidate profile.

Whoa! Has some pent up frustrations about URMs or what? You have so many assumptions in this response, I don't even know where to begin. Next time, try and take a deep breath before posting.


i actually am a urm. and i would actually benefit a great deal from any urm bump in hiring. so i assure you that there is no frustration on my part. i just see the world for what it is. try it some time.

anyway, i was just pointing out what is a fundamental distinction between firm hiring and law school admissions. even firms with the largest summer classes dont seem to be hiring a substantial number of urms, so i dont think there is much to back up the idea that urm status bears a great deal on oci prospects. if me telling op to err on the side of conservatism bothers you, i'm not sure what to say...


Before calling out others for not seeing the world "for what it is", try informing yourself first. Many big law firms have financial incentives from clients to hire diverse classes. Some clients, including Wal-Mart, require it. To think that URM's aren't sought after is wrong. For this reason, URM's often do see a boost when applying for a job.


presumably these incentives would be revealed through a higher number of urms in every summer class. but the nalp data i just looked through says otherwise.

anyway, i'm not arguing that there is no advantage, just that it isnt terribly helpful if you werent already in a good position to begin with.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Oban » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:20 pm

URMS are given a wider birth so to speak in hiring at large firms/corporations, EG a URM in middle third of class will compete with non URMs in the top third. There are also lots of opportunities just for URMS, see 1L SA positions. However it only takes you so far, and a lot of it has to do with your background before law school and your personality.

URM from bum fuck state and no job experience and weak grades will have a hard time getting any thing in biglaw
URM from T50 UG + Work Experience will have a better time, URM + IP = BIGLAWL SECURE
URM plus top grades/law review = Sull Crom, etc etc

At small firms, being a URM is actually a hindrance IMO, no incentive for any of them to hire you. There are some exceptions, but that has been my experience.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i think we should distinguish wlrk's 1l program from their actual 2l summer program. i know they regularly take below median urms for the former, but participants arent allowed to even interview for the 2l program.

one of my good friends last year (aa male) here at hls had 8 hs and got an offer from w&c but not wachtell.


Wait, really?

I thought those lucky enough to work at Wachtell for 1L summer are not given offers, but we're still considered for a 2L SA?

Regardless of whether they are or not, having Wachtell on your resume for OCI is a big plus and will certainly help in landing a callback with other elite firms.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:31 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i think we should distinguish wlrk's 1l program from their actual 2l summer program. i know they regularly take below median urms for the former, but participants arent allowed to even interview for the 2l program.

one of my good friends last year (aa male) here at hls had 8 hs and got an offer from w&c but not wachtell.


Wait, really?

I thought those lucky enough to work at Wachtell for 1L summer are not given offers, but we're still considered for a 2L SA?

Regardless of whether they are or not, having Wachtell on your resume for OCI is a big plus and will certainly help in landing a callback with other elite firms.


http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/lalsa/?p=548
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz
1L Diversity Summer Associate Program
Program Outline
This annual program offers a small number of students from underrepresented groups an opportunity to work at the firm during their 1L summer. The program is open to students who possess a proven track record of academic success and leadership ability, excellent writing skills, and an interest in our practice.
Students in the 1L program are part of our regular summer associate program for all purposes, including work assignments and social events. The firm does not make full-time offers to 1L summer associates at the end of the summer. We do, however, keep in touch with our 1L program students and a number of these students have applied for and received full-time offers in the fall of their third year in law school or during their judicial clerkships, and joined the firm as full-time associates thereafter.


still i agree, its a pretty great thing to have on the resume. also, pulling in a summer associate salary for the summer probably isnt too bad either.

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20121109
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby 20121109 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i think we should distinguish wlrk's 1l program from their actual 2l summer program. i know they regularly take below median urms for the former, but participants arent allowed to even interview for the 2l program.

one of my good friends last year (aa male) here at hls had 8 hs and got an offer from w&c but not wachtell.


Wait, really?

I thought those lucky enough to work at Wachtell for 1L summer are not given offers, but we're still considered for a 2L SA?

Regardless of whether they are or not, having Wachtell on your resume for OCI is a big plus and will certainly help in landing a callback with other elite firms.


http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/lalsa/?p=548
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz
1L Diversity Summer Associate Program
Program Outline
This annual program offers a small number of students from underrepresented groups an opportunity to work at the firm during their 1L summer. The program is open to students who possess a proven track record of academic success and leadership ability, excellent writing skills, and an interest in our practice.
Students in the 1L program are part of our regular summer associate program for all purposes, including work assignments and social events. The firm does not make full-time offers to 1L summer associates at the end of the summer. We do, however, keep in touch with our 1L program students and a number of these students have applied for and received full-time offers in the fall of their third year in law school or during their judicial clerkships, and joined the firm as full-time associates thereafter.


still i agree, its a pretty great thing to have on the resume. also, pulling in a summer associate salary for the summer probably isnt too bad either.


So basically, if you were a part of the program, Wachtell wants you to secure an offer from another firm for 2L OCI only to steal you back for 3L OCI?

Well, it is Wachtell. I doubt many people would turn down that opportunity.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby yngblkgifted » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:48 pm

Oban wrote:URMS are given a wider birth so to speak in hiring at large firms/corporations, EG a URM in middle third of class will compete with non URMs in the top third. There are also lots of opportunities just for URMS, see 1L SA positions. However it only takes you so far, and a lot of it has to do with your background before law school and your personality.

URM from bum fuck state and no job experience and weak grades will have a hard time getting any thing in biglaw
URM from T50 UG + Work Experience will have a better time, URM + IP = BIGLAWL SECURE
URM plus top grades/law review = Sull Crom, etc etc

At small firms, being a URM is actually a hindrance IMO, no incentive for any of them to hire you. There are some exceptions, but that has been my experience.


I was under the impression that UG didn't matter that much. Aren't law school grades and prestige of your law school 99% of the game? Your first example probably won't get big law, but not because of his/her UG amirite?

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Aston2412 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:52 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:
Oban wrote:URMS are given a wider birth so to speak in hiring at large firms/corporations, EG a URM in middle third of class will compete with non URMs in the top third. There are also lots of opportunities just for URMS, see 1L SA positions. However it only takes you so far, and a lot of it has to do with your background before law school and your personality.

URM from bum fuck state and no job experience and weak grades will have a hard time getting any thing in biglaw
URM from T50 UG + Work Experience will have a better time, URM + IP = BIGLAWL SECURE
URM plus top grades/law review = Sull Crom, etc etc

At small firms, being a URM is actually a hindrance IMO, no incentive for any of them to hire you. There are some exceptions, but that has been my experience.


I was under the impression that UG didn't matter that much. Aren't law school grades and prestige of your law school 99% of the game? Your first example probably won't get big law, but not because of his/her UG amirite?



When he says bum fuck state, I think he's talking about Alpine Tree State School of Law...

Oban
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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Oban » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:25 am

You need something in the firm law bio. Plus when hiring URMs the committee need some angle to help make hiring median/below median URMs reasonable. Such as "She may be median but she went to Rice/Georgetown/UCLA, this will look good in firm bios, talking about diverse hires to clients, etc.

Grads trump everything thing though. I recently saw a big law firm in Texas with a URM who graduated from Thurgood Marshal Cum Laude. U Maryland Undergrad. Grades > Everything.

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Re: URMs & Firm Employment

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:30 am

Know peeps at my T10 who were bottom 10% get hired at NJL 250s. Same with those with the top of the class. Depends on factors, how you interview, how you bid, etc.




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